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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by WytchCrypt View Post
    I believe I read they were made by an Italian organ company...possibly Crumar? I thought they might appear on the 1972 Belgian TV appearance during the Fountain of Salmacis but didn't see any bass pedals anywhere on stage.
    He would have used them on The Musical Box, I think that's the only song that he plays guitar on, on the Belgian TV thing. Rutherford only played bass pedals on songs where he played guitar. The whole idea for that came out of the period immediately following Ant's departure from the band. They tried to go forward, with Rutherford playing guitar and bass pedals full time, and with Tony filling in some of the solos on electric piano with a fuzz pedal on it. I think that lasted for a few months, before they decided they needed another guitarist.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    He would have used them on The Musical Box, I think that's the only song that he plays guitar on, on the Belgian TV thing. Rutherford only played bass pedals on songs where he played guitar. The whole idea for that came out of the period immediately following Ant's departure from the band. They tried to go forward, with Rutherford playing guitar and bass pedals full time, and with Tony filling in some of the solos on electric piano with a fuzz pedal on it. I think that lasted for a few months, before they decided they needed another guitarist.
    Very cool...didn't know that. Just had a close look at the Belgian TV clip of The Musical Box, it's not a very clear picture but it appears Rutherford does indeed have a 1 octave bass pedal instrument in his pedalboard. It looks suspiciously like the one Jon Anderson was playing in the Beat Club vid I posted earlier

    Genesis15.jpg
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  3. #53
    Also had a look at the Live at the Rainbow '73 show and took this screenshot...again looks suspiciously like the bass pedals Jon Anderson was playing

    Genesis16.jpg
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  4. #54
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    Thanks for many interesting replies to this post.
    Some of the views have surprised me (I wasn't expecting much love for the Melody TV Video!) and I've dug out my Syria Mosque boot from the 1976 tour to review my thoughts on the Bruford line-up's performance.
    Although the OP wasn't intended to discuss boots, I've got to admit that this performance is (to me) far below the standard of the 1977 one that appears on SO. However, maybe I should listen again to a 1977 tour boot to judge how much of that margin might be due to studio tinkering.
    I appreciate how many people have split their comments in reference to different sections of SR, the differences in performers, instruments, arrangements and key changes. Sometimes its not easy to put your finger on what is more to your taste in A/B comparisons.
    Changes in key of part (if not all) of the song can be crucial but unfortunately I don't have a musicians ear to spot these differences. If anybody wants to identify the key of any of the recorded versions I for one would be interested to hear their observations.

  5. #55
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    Just remembered that I have the published sheet music book for the SO album (Wise Publications 1978).
    According to this book (and my hopeless music reading skills):

    Lover's Leap and The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man are both in C major throughout.
    Ikhnaton and Itsacon starts in G major but jumps to D major (at "waiting for battle").
    How Dare I be so Beautiful is in G major.
    Willow Farm starts in Ab major, changes to E major (at "we've got everything") and back to Ab major (at "All Change"). Finally it's in B major from "and as you listen..." to the end.
    Apocalypse in 9/8 and As Sure as Eggs is Eggs are both in C major throughout.

    A caveat: My experience of published sheet music is that it can be notorious for having the key wrong - I haven't a clue why this should be.
    So bear in mind the published transcription (a) may not necessarily be correct and (b) might not relate to the SO version!

  6. #56
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    ^Indeed, hardly any of those keys are right, to my ears. 'As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs' was tuned down a whole tone live (A major to G major, again to my ears).

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by r2daft2 View Post
    A caveat: My experience of published sheet music is that it can be notorious for having the key wrong - I haven't a clue why this should be.
    Absolutely. Wrong key, wrong chords, etc...it really depends on who did the transcription. One of, if not the best and most accurate prog sheet music books I ever bought (and still break out from time to time), is this one from the late 70's. It includes all of Trick of the Tail & Wind and Wuthering and is fantastic. It's been out of print for years (probably decades) but looks like Amazon currently has a line on a used copy for $22 plus $4 shipping. This is a steal for anyone wanting accurate piano & chords from these albums (plus a great transcription of Hackett's classical guitar intro to Blood on the Rooftops).

    https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Trick.../dp/B000BRQUS8
    Last edited by WytchCrypt; 05-28-2020 at 12:11 PM.
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  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by WytchCrypt View Post
    Absolutely. Wrong key, wrong chords, etc...it really depends on who did the transcription. One of, if not the best and most accurate prog sheet music books I ever bought (and still break out from time to time), is this one from the late 70's. It includes all of Trick of the Tail & Wind and Wuthering and is fantastic. It's been out of print for years (probably decades) but looks like Amazon currently has a line on a used copy for $22 plus $4 shipping. This is a steal for anyone wanting accurate piano & chords from these albums (plus a great transcription of Hackett's classical guitar intro to Blood on the Rooftops).

    https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Trick.../dp/B000BRQUS8
    I have that book and it's excellent. I learned the intro to "Blood on the rooftops" from that. The worst sheet music book I
    ever bought was the "Beatlemania" songbook which even got time signatures wrong like having Fool.On the Hill in 3/4. I guess that would be ok for a polka or waltz version...

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by the winter tree View Post
    I have that book and it's excellent. I learned the intro to "Blood on the rooftops" from that. The worst sheet music book I
    ever bought was the "Beatlemania" songbook which even got time signatures wrong like having Fool.On the Hill in 3/4. I guess that would be ok for a polka or waltz version...
    Cool, I learned Tony Banks' Mad Man Moon piano intro from that book and it was spot on. I gained a huge amount of respect for Banks' composing and playing ability from studying that book, there's some very difficult things going on that he makes sound so easy. I agree about "Beatlemania" being the worst I ever saw...the most complete and accurate Beatles book I ever had was, "The Beatles: Complete Scores". Well over 1,000 pages and highly accurate...though annoyingly small print. My favorite Beatles book is "The Concise Beatles Complete" from 1982. Every song with vocal melody lines in standard notation and accompanying chords (except Revolution 9 )
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  10. #60
    Before the mid 80's, songbooks were terrible. Most of what was out there was "guitar/piano accompaniement" things, where you'd have the vocal melody, and then you'd have the chords, and that was about it. If there was an instrumental hook, say the guitar hooks on Day Tripper (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction, that might be notated, sort of. I think the reason they were always in the wrong key tied to the fact that most of the time, they couldn't use the arrangement that was used on the record (they'd have had to pay extra for that). So the songs would be in the wrong key, and as one of the guys who did those transcription books that first started to surface in the 80's once noted, "There'd always been an F# chord that sound right". And of course, you didn't get things like guitar solos.

    I've got a Pink Floyd songbook, that hs a lot of early stuff, a guitar transcription book. I'm not sure if it's in the right key, but the transcription to Celestial Voices (yeah, they took an organ piece and arranged it for the top three strings of the guitar) sounds right to my ears. Echoes is in the wrong key, and is missing the middle (basically it's the a chunk of the intro, the vocal sections, and the instrumental chromatic thing that comes at the end of each verse) but again, it sounded right to my ears. Astronomy Domine and Set The Controls To The Heart Of The Sun both appeared to be correct, though they simplified the guitar riffs I think. I can't remember what else in that book.

    I remember James Taylor saying that when his record company first started putting out songbooks of his music, they didn't notate the capo positions. So people were trying to figure out the songs from the chord shapes in the book, not realizing that it should have said "Capo at the 3rd fret" or whatever.

  11. #61
    Foxtrot for me. Also fine 1974 version from a Canadian gig out there.
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  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by r2daft2 View Post
    Just remembered that I have the published sheet music book for the SO album (Wise Publications 1978).
    According to this book (and my hopeless music reading skills):

    Lover's Leap and The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man are both in C major throughout.
    Ikhnaton and Itsacon starts in G major but jumps to D major (at "waiting for battle").
    How Dare I be so Beautiful is in G major.
    Willow Farm starts in Ab major, changes to E major (at "we've got everything") and back to Ab major (at "All Change"). Finally it's in B major from "and as you listen..." to the end.
    Apocalypse in 9/8 and As Sure as Eggs is Eggs are both in C major throughout.

    A caveat: My experience of published sheet music is that it can be notorious for having the key wrong - I haven't a clue why this should be.
    So bear in mind the published transcription (a) may not necessarily be correct and (b) might not relate to the SO version!
    Way back when I was a member of the Deep Purple fan club, one of the other members offered a book of DP song transcriptions for Blackmore to sign; I think it was open at Smoke on the Water. Blackmore took it, looked at it, and scribbled down corrections to the guitar chord notations!

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    Way back when I was a member of the Deep Purple fan club, one of the other members offered a book of DP song transcriptions for Blackmore to sign; I think it was open at Smoke on the Water. Blackmore took it, looked at it, and scribbled down corrections to the guitar chord notations!
    I remember the first time Metallica was featured in Guitar Player, James Hetfield was talking about how he doesn't read music. He said that when they do meet and greet things, kids will bring songbooks for them to sign, and they'll say things like "I'm having trouble with this bit right here", and how he can't help them because he doesn't understand what any of means on paper. He then says "I'll tell them, 'Oh, that bit isn't right, let me correct it for you'. Mess with their heads". That was the same interviewed where they asked if there wasn't anything he wished he could do on a guitar, and he said "Well, a beer holder would be nice". I can't remember if it was him or Hammett who made the comment about how "If we ever saw a five string guitar, we'd just throw it away", apparently because so much of Metallica's sound relies on the low E string or whatever. I remember laughing about that, thinking "I wonder if these guys have ever heard of the Rolling Stones".

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    Way back when I was a member of the Deep Purple fan club, one of the other members offered a book of DP song transcriptions for Blackmore to sign; I think it was open at Smoke on the Water. Blackmore took it, looked at it, and scribbled down corrections to the guitar chord notations!
    Knowing Blackmore, I'm shocked he didn't tear the book into little pieces and throw it at the guy
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  15. #65
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    My fave Supper's Ready is probably from Seconds Out.

  16. #66
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r2daft2 View Post
    Just remembered that I have the published sheet music book for the SO album (Wise Publications 1978).
    According to this book (and my hopeless music reading skills):

    Lover's Leap and The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man are both in C major throughout.
    Ikhnaton and Itsacon starts in G major but jumps to D major (at "waiting for battle").
    How Dare I be so Beautiful is in G major.
    Willow Farm starts in Ab major, changes to E major (at "we've got everything") and back to Ab major (at "All Change"). Finally it's in B major from "and as you listen..." to the end.
    Apocalypse in 9/8 and As Sure as Eggs is Eggs are both in C major throughout.

    A caveat: My experience of published sheet music is that it can be notorious for having the key wrong - I haven't a clue why this should be.
    So bear in mind the published transcription (a) may not necessarily be correct and (b) might not relate to the SO version!
    The songbook version is in the original key(s) as heard on both Foxtrot and Seconds Out, although most of what you have interpreted as C is actually A minor, and although the notes are right the printed key signature doesn't always reflect the prevailing key. For example, the main part of "Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man" is in A major, although the clef has no sharps or flats, as if it were still A minor.
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  17. #67
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    Here's what I'd guess at in rudimentary fashion:

    Lover's Leap- Ab major, at least going on the 'hey babe' chorus, there's a lot of chords in the verses!
    The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man- A major
    Ikhnaton and Itsacon- D major (from 'waiting for battle')
    How Dare I be so Beautiful- a tough one to pin down, maybe G major as noted
    Willow Farm starts in Ab minor, changes to Ab major (at "All Change"). Finally it's in Ab minor from "and as you listen..." to the end.
    Apocalypse in 9/8- E major...maybe...
    As Sure as Eggs is Eggs - the studio version is A major (from 'gonna work out fine')

    This doesn't take into consideration some of the linking sections.
    Last edited by JJ88; 05-29-2020 at 12:48 PM.

  18. #68
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    I've only heard the studio version and the Seconds Out version. I have 'em both. Like 'em both. At this moment I'm listening to the studio original version. Epic. Love it.

  19. #69
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    Thanks for the corrections regarding keys - I think I understand what has been said.
    I've since got the trusty acoustic out and checked it was correctly tuned.
    I've tried to play the parts of LL and TGECM that are within my capabilities (ahem!) while playing along to the Foxtrot, SO, Rainbow and GR2 versions of the song.
    I've concluded that all of these versions are definitely in the same key (as per the published sheet music in fact: LL starting off in Am and TGESM in A) and I'm therefore wondering whether the song has always been performed in the same key.
    If any later parts of SR has been changed at any time then I'd be grateful if anyone could pinpoint exactly which parts/performances we are talking about.
    If such key changes were employed it would be nice to tie down whether these changes were made for Peter or for Phil to sing live.

  20. #70
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    ^As far as I remember, in Genesis' live versions of the song only 'As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs' was ever changed from the studio version. The exact moment is a few seconds before Gabriel comes in with 'and it's hey babe'...from there the song is a whole tone lower. I think it's an improvement.

    Hackett made further changes, ISTR 'Apocalypse In 9/8' was downtuned a whole tone as well. I've forgotten if he changed anything else.

  21. #71
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    If you look at almost any piano transcription book it will likely be in C because that's the easiest key to play in. If you get a Yes songbook it will show 5 sharps, because that's the hardest key to play in (any likely the key Jon sang in).
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    1973 Felt Forum
    The version intended for the two-disc version of Genesis Live

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    That Felt Forum show is from the SEBTP tour. The version of "Supper's Ready" was intended for "Genesis Live" is from the Leicester show (Feb 25, 1973).
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  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Nearfest2 View Post
    That Felt Forum show is from the SEBTP tour. The version of "Supper's Ready" was intended for "Genesis Live" is from the Leicester show (Feb 25, 1973).

  24. #74
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    Yeah, iirc, the Felt Forum show was on A Death In Anytown.

  25. #75
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    I’ve been doing some homework (and strumming) and unearthed a few things which I thought you might find interesting:

    The published sheet music I’ve referred to is basically correct but has clearly been transcribed from the Foxtrot original recording - the keys/chords tie in throughout as far as I can tell.
    The SO live version sticks to exactly the same keys until the “And it’s Hey Babe…” section at the end of Apocalypse in 9/8 (JJ88 was spot on with this). From this point onwards the song is played two steps lower (in Gm rather than Am?).

    So here’s some history regarding the live performances of Suppers Ready which I’ve put together with much assistance from Paul Russell’s book “Genesis – A Live Guide 1969 to 1975” and my own collection of bootlegs:

    SR was first played live at Brunel University on 10 Nov’72 and certainly up to the shows in Rome in late January ’73 it was played in the same keys as the Foxtrot recording. During this period it was played with a power-chord ending rather than the traditional fade out – a typical example of this can be seen in the French TV recording from the Bataclan Club on 10 Jan’73 (See the DVD extras included in the 1970-1975 Box).

    The “Genesis Live” recordings were made just a month later (24/25 Feb’73) and two changes have been introduced: (1) The (unreleased) version of SR now has it’s familiar fade at the end and (2) the lower key has been introduced for the song’s conclusion (as mentioned above).
    I can’t help but wonder if the catalyst for these changes had some relation to the pending live recording by the KBFH which eventually led to the live album.

    Those earliest performances (about 40 or so at the most) are the only ones where Genesis played SR in the “Foxtrot keys” throughout. It would appear that every performance since (about 140 with PG, another 150 with SH (1976/77) and finally 45 with the 3-man line–up (1982)) has seen the “lower key” ending adopted as standard. Before you ask – no I haven’t checked!

    SH appears to have stuck to the “lower key” ending for the GR album and shows but again I haven’t checked for any further deviations.

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