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Thread: Genesis In Concert (Trick tour) All Cleaned Up

  1. #26
    This is still my favorite version of Apocalypse In 9/8 and As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs. When I first got into Genesis, this was my first exposure to the Gabriel era stuff, via it's occasional showings on the USA Network's old Night Flight show. One thing I like is Bruford's drumming during Hackett's solo during As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs, and I also like Banks and Hackett playing the parts that had been played by Gabriel on flute originally.

    When I got A Trick Of The Tail, when I'd listen to Entangled, after the song would end, in my mind, I kept hearing those arpeggios that kick off Apocalypse, because of how many times I watched the film beforehand.

  2. #27
    Member paythesnuka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    Wow! Those guys were a force back then. You get a real appreciation for Mike Rutherford watching all the parts he covers. Really great!
    I had forgotten how much Rutherford moved around while playing back then. When I first started seeing them in the '80s, he pretty much stayed in one place and moving a little in place. I guess a lot of things changed when Hackett left and he started doing more lead guitar parts.
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and... clever" -- David St. Hubbins & Derek Smalls, Spinal Tap

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by paythesnuka View Post
    I had forgotten how much Rutherford moved around while playing back then. When I first started seeing them in the '80s, he pretty much stayed in one place and moving a little in place. I guess a lot of things changed when Hackett left and he started doing more lead guitar parts.
    That was just about the only tour where Rutherford moved around a lot. The footage I've seen of them from the Gabriel years and from every subsequent tour suggests that this was the one tour where he made any real attempt to be a showman. And of course, during the Gabriel years, he often times sat onstage.

    I think what must have happened was, with Peter being such a strong visual performer, the entire band apparently felt they had to "bump up their" showmanship. Well, maybe not Tony, but note also this was the first tour where Hackett stood onstage, and though you don't see it in the film, both Hackett and Rutherford took turns talking to the audience. I've got a couple bootlegs where Rutherford tells a rather lengthy story preceding White Mountain. I think this was the only tour where anyone other than Peter or Phil did spoke to the audience.

  4. #29
    This jogs my memory in another respect. If I recall correctly, several years back it was mentioned that the director has the complete uncut concert. Does the possibility exist that we might see it minus added silent movie footage? I guess time will tell!
    Sleeping at home is killing the hotel business!

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by wilcox660 View Post
    This jogs my memory in another respect. If I recall correctly, several years back it was mentioned that the director has the complete uncut concert. Does the possibility exist that we might see it minus added silent movie footage? I guess time will tell!
    Does the possibility exist that Cleveland Browns might, someday, play in the Super Bowl? Because that's the kind of odds you're talking about. Tony Maylam, the director in question, apparently has no interest, and one would assume, neither does the band. The band could theoretically buy back the footage and hire another director to do some kind of redux edition or whatever, but I imagine if they wanted to do that, they would have done that by now.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    That was just about the only tour where Rutherford moved around a lot. The footage I've seen of them from the Gabriel years and from every subsequent tour suggests that this was the one tour where he made any real attempt to be a showman. And of course, during the Gabriel years, he often times sat onstage.
    .

    Steve of course spent his first few years with the group sitting, I'm not sure I saw Mike sit unless it was an occasional soft 12-string song.

  7. #32
    What wonderful footage. I was only ten at the time and too young to attend but this group was my first exposure to Genesis. My mom was great at encouraging me to explore new music when I was young and that year she got me Wind and Wuthering for Christmas. I loved it from the start and so when Seconds Out released in 1977 I bought that with my paper route money and that was my first exposure to Gabriel era material. All the way through high school I preferred this Philip Collins version of Suppers Ready and Cinema Show. Bruford was the perfect choice to drum with them on their first tour sans Peter Gabriel. As much as I love the Gabriel era now, their is something special about Genesis in 1976. I still listen to A Trick of the Tail as much as any Genesis album.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by BarryLI View Post
    .

    Steve of course spent his first few years with the group sitting, I'm not sure I saw Mike sit unless it was an occasional soft 12-string song.
    There's photos of Rutherford sitting in the early years. He'd do this whether playign electric or acoustic 12 string. I think during the Nursery Cryme/Foxtrot era, he only stood when he played bass. Perhaps he couldn't get the 4001 to balance right when he played it sitting.

  9. #34
    NEARfest Officer Emeritus Nearfest2's Avatar
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    The footage and sound are great. It's really a treat to watch Bill Bruford play Genesis songs and watch he and Phil Collins interact. However, those films that are placed in the middle of the performance are agonizing to sit through knowing what's going on on stage!
    Chad

  10. #35
    One thing to consider is that in some instances the studio version is either slowed or sped up. For example, I believe No Quarter was slowed down a half step (D to C#) and The Rain Song slowed down a full step (A to G), at least compared to Song Remains The Same versions.

    Many songs are not tuned exactly to A440.

    The sax player on Baker Street (not Muse, but Gerry Rafferty) said his sax was played 11 cents sharp and it still bugs him. This is despite that melody part being one of the best ever.

  11. #36
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    Reading Bruford's comments about his time in the band, he really seems to slog them off as lightweight and not worth his time. His performance in this footage really shines, though. It looks like he was engaged rather than just sleepwalking.

  12. #37
    Thanks for posting. Absent the goofy silent movie footage, this is awesome. The W&W tour was my first attending tour, so I have no memory of Trick. I really do wish there was a really good full Trick concert available, whether video or audio. I really liked BB as the 'tour' drummer.

  13. #38
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    I've said this countless times, but Genesis' Trick Of The Tail tour was my first concert. I had just turned 14. The video is a very special snapshot of a tour I was lucky enough the attend. I wish it was Hackett standing centre stage instead of Rutherford. This album clearly proved that Genesis was a total force, minus Gabriel. I wonder how many Gabriel fanatics shifted there perspectives with this landmark album? I think Trick and Wind are the finest music Genesis ever released. I still kept my loyalty to Gabriel's solo work, only missing the first tour but every album since I've attended.
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  14. #39
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    I think Aymeric made a good point about speed correction, but let's not forget that many bands unwillingly/involuntarily sped up their music on stage (usually out of nervousness), so a correction (to fit the studio versions) could sometimes be superfluous to the legitimacy of the live recordings.

    my 0.02p to the debate about remastering.

    Otherwise, good job of restoration.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  15. #40
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
    I really do wish there was a really good full Trick concert available, whether video or audio. I really liked BB as the 'tour' drummer.
    There is. Both Pittsburgh and Cleveland were broadcast on the radio, and are easy to find. Sound is good enough for me.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nearfest2 View Post
    The footage and sound are great. It's really a treat to watch Bill Bruford play Genesis songs and watch he and Phil Collins interact. However, those films that are placed in the middle of the performance are agonizing to sit through knowing what's going on on stage!
    Well, I agree about the silent movie footage during The Cinema Show, but I think in the other instances, there's a great deal of atmosphere generated by the films, which I think enhance the presentation. Also, if I remember correctly, they blacked out the stage completely during the Entangled and As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs codas, so there wouldn't be much you could show, so far as what was going on onstage.
    One thing to consider is that in some instances the studio version is either slowed or sped up. For example, I believe No Quarter was slowed down a half step (D to C#) and The Rain Song slowed down a full step (A to G), at least compared to Song Remains The Same versions.
    The live version of The Rain Song is a step higher because Page tuned his guitar a step higher. On the studio version, the guitar is tuned DGCGCD. On the live version, it's tuned EADADE. I'm not sure why he did it that way, unless it was just that he only had the one doubleneck, and it was easier to tune two strings in the middle of a show, than to retune the entire guitar.

    Many songs are not tuned exactly to A440.
    Yeah, especially if you're not using tuned percussion, piano or some other instrument that basically can't be tuned easily (or at all), it's highly likely that the musicians were more worried about being in tune with each other, than being tuned to someone else's predetermined tuning standard.

    About recordings being sped or slowed down, there's that infamous tale of Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue, where the entire LP side was sped up a little, which reputedly, "nobody" knew about it until they decided to produce a remaster in the mid 90's, and they decide to "correct" this discrepancy. In the liner notes, they referred to the original pitch as being the result of a "mastering error", but Miles' long time producer Teo Macero insisted he did it deliberately because he thought the tracks sounded better a little faster. Tom Dowd did the same thing on some of the songs on Layla And Other Assorted Love Songs.

    Both Pittsburgh and Cleveland were broadcast on the radio, and are easy to find. Sound is good enough for me.
    Phil has a great Spinal Tap moment during the Pittsburgh show when he begins the evening (well, after playing Dance On A Volcano) by saying, "Hello, Baltimore!". He's got a bit on the Cleveland show, where he acknowledges the likelihood that the radio listeners are recording the broadcast. Did anyone ever find the Cleveland version of Entangled? Every version of teh Cleveland show I've seen is missing that one song.

  17. #42
    Banned Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adinfinitum View Post
    The sax player on Baker Street (not Muse, but Gerry Rafferty) said his sax was played 11 cents sharp and it still bugs him. This is despite that melody part being one of the best ever.
    I hope Mr. Ravenscroft (RIP) made his peace with that and other issues before his untimely passing.

  18. #43
    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    Reading Bruford's comments about his time in the band, he really seems to slog them off as lightweight and not worth his time. His performance in this footage really shines, though. It looks like he was engaged rather than just sleepwalking.
    B.B has said more than once that he found his short collaboration with Genesis rather boring, mainly because there was no room for any improvisation and he was asked to play the same thing the same way every night (which actually he didn't). And Genesis members didn’t appreciate either the freedoms he allowed himself to reinterpret some drum parts differently at each show. These (and also B.B planning his future solo project) are the main reasons why the collaboration didn't last, but the fans really loved it (and still do).
    Last edited by Mr.Krautman; 03-25-2020 at 11:44 AM.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    B.B has said more than once that he found his short collaboration with Genesis rather boring, mainly because there was no room for any improvisation and he was asked to play the same thing the same way every night (which actually he didn't). And Genesis members didn’t appreciate either the freedoms he allowed himself to reinterpret some drum parts differently at each show. These (and also B.B planning his future solo project) are the main reasons why the collaboration didn't last, but the fans really loved it (and still do).
    This. The comments I've read from him suggest that because he was a hired gun and not involved in the actual writing of the material it didn't suit him for more than one tour, but what a treat to hear him interpret those parts in a live setting. I don't think he's ever said that he regretted doing it. Bruford throughout his career was a restless, hungry artist, always looking to keep pushing himself and creating new music and sounds.

  20. #45
    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquatarkus View Post
    This. The comments I've read from him suggest that because he was a hired gun and not involved in the actual writing of the material it didn't suit him for more than one tour, but what a treat to hear him interpret those parts in a live setting. I don't think he's ever said that he regretted doing it. Bruford throughout his career was a restless, hungry artist, always looking to keep pushing himself and creating new music and sounds.
    No, he has no regrets and allways stayed very positive and grateful about the way he has been treated by the band members (he can't say the same about his other boss, Mr. R.Fripp). And in the Genesis (Chapter & Verse) book he even apologize for the somewhat egotistical way he acted then and say that if he ever has the opportunity to do it again he would do it differently.

  21. #46
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    The funny thing about BB is that he doesn't sound like the typical BB with Genesis. He doesn't have that zinging rimshot snare sound. I thought he really played well with them and didn't sound like he was grafted on.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    No, he has no regrets and allways stayed very positive and grateful about the way he has been treated by the band members (he can't say the same about his other boss, Mr. R.Fripp). And in the Genesis (Chapter & Verse) book he even apologize for the somewhat egotistical way he acted then and say that if he ever has the opportunity to do it again he would do it differently.
    It seems to always be the case, at least from what I've observed, that musicians in King Crimson eventually feel the shaft one way or the other from Mr. Fripp. I don't know the man obviously and it isn't really possible to accurately judge a person's character from afar and through the eyes of fandom, but his relationships with other musicians in King Crimson do speak to some interpersonal troubles with people he works with professionally. Bruford seems like the consummate professional and survived in three distinct versions/eras of Crimson. More than any other musician. I have seen King Crimson in concert three times. 1984, 1995 and the last time in 2000. That last gig was a strange one, at the Fillmore in San Francisco. The band was great, but i was reading his diary online at the time and he had a real (understandable) bug up his bum about flash photography and clandestine recordings by fans at gigs. The way he wrote about the problem suggested he possessed a certain clairvoyance about the whole thing during gigs, as he was playing. So at times during the tour he refused to play the encore, which was usually Heroes. Later he'd write about how he just knew there was such and such going on during the gig. The same thing happened during my show. There were no flashbulbs that went off during the gig nor did I see anyone (obviously) taping, but at the end of the set he got up and walked slowly across the stage, and as he did he glared at the audience in a way I've never seen a performer do that wasn't part of an extreme metal show! I found it very hostile and unusual given the absence of evidence at the gig I watched. The point of my long winded story is just to say that from my observation Mr. Fripp has a delicate, sometimes intemperate personality and I can't see how that wouldn't come into play with the guys that he plays with over time.

  23. #48
    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquatarkus View Post
    .../... The same thing happened during my show. There were no flashbulbs that went off during the gig nor did I see anyone (obviously) taping, but at the end of the set he got up and walked slowly across the stage, and as he did he glared at the audience in a way I've never seen a performer do that wasn't part of an extreme metal show! I found it very hostile and unusual given the absence of evidence at the gig I watched. The point of my long winded story is just to say that from my observation Mr. Fripp has a delicate, sometimes intemperate personality and I can't see how that wouldn't come into play with the guys that he plays with over time.
    Apparently not an isolated event: I lived the exact same unpleasant scenario a few years ago after an (otherwise perfect) K.C show. The audience was well informed before the show (aurally first by two bilingual P.A announcements, and also visually by a big warning board placed front stage) about Mr Fripp's strict requirements (NO photos except during Red, NO flashes, NO luminescent smartphones, NO audio/video recordings, etc...) and as far as I can remember all these stringent requirements were strictly respected during all the show by all the attendee present. You could actually have heard a pin drop during the songs, not the typical noisy disturbing participating rock audience, sometimes I felt I was attending a classical concert (which is not a bad thing per se). Everything went well until the last song, then Mr.Fripp before leaving the stage threw an angry and upset look at the public and then pointed an accusing finger at someone (invisible) in the audience... then he left without saying a single word and didn't came back. Of course, the intended penalty followed shortly: NO Encore(s) ! and lights on. It would be really hard to imagine a more sinister and unpleasant way to close a show.
    Last edited by Mr.Krautman; 03-25-2020 at 05:15 PM.

  24. #49
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    Apparently not an isolated event: I lived the exact same unpleasant scenario a few years ago after an (otherwise perfect) K.C show. The audience was well informed before the show (aurally first by two bilingual P.A announcements, and also visually by a big warning board placed front stage) about Mr Fripp's strict requirements (NO photos except during Red, NO flashes, NO luminescent smartphones, NO audio recordings, etc...) and as far as I can remember all these stringent requirements were strictly respected during all the show by all the attendee present. You could actually have heard a pin drop during the songs, not the typical noisy disturbing participating rock audience, sometimes I felt I was attending a classical concert (which is not a bad thing in itself). Everything went well until the last song, then Mr.Fripp before leaving the stage threw an angry and upset look at the public and then pointed an accusing finger at someone (invisible) in the audience... then he left without saying a single word and didn't came back. Of course, the intended penalty followed shortly: NO Encore(s) ! and lights on. It would be really hard to imagine a more sinister and unpleasant way to close a show.
    This has been a 40 year, or more, practice with Robert Fripp. I saw The League Of Gentlemen in the very early 80s and a similar thing happened. There was no advanced notice I remembered. The incident happened early in the set - someone took a picture, I could see the bulb flash. Fripp immediately stopped the show and lectured the audience about taking pictures. I'm can't recall exactly but I think he threatened to end the show completely. No other photography took place after the first incident. It was an unpleasant experiene but I was such a fan of this music and just concentrated on the performance that did take place.

    Around the same time, Fripp gave a lecture at the university I was attending. It was mostly a lecture but included some soloing in between the lecture. One couple in front of my was pretty vocal about experting more music and less talk. It was a small auditorium and they could clearly be heard. Fripp eviscerated the couple with a direct dressing down and imitating there initial objections.

    I've seen KC several times during the 80s and 90s after that time and never saw a repeat of this type of behaviour.
    What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it brings forth a sound.

  25. #50
    Member Gizmotron's Avatar
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    Thanks so much!

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