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Thread: Genesis In Concert (Trick tour) All Cleaned Up

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    ...Mr Fripp's strict requirements (NO photos except during Red, NO flashes, NO luminescent smartphones, NO audio/video recordings, etc.)
    Surely you meant to write something else there, but for the benefit of those who have yet to attend a concert and might misbehave as a result of the above, photography is only allowed at the very end of the show, after the last encore has been played (NOT even between the main set and the first encore), and the cue, as Robert explains in his pre-recorded message, is when Tony Levin takes out his camera and begins taking photos himself (Fripp usually also does).

    So if they play "Red", don't think you can take out your camera and snap away ! ;-)
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  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    I think Aymeric made a good point about speed correction, but let's not forget that many bands unwillingly/involuntarily sped up their music on stage (usually out of nervousness), so a correction (to fit the studio versions) could sometimes be superfluous to the legitimacy of the live recordings.
    The issue isn't the speed of the performance, but the speed of playback of the recording. Of course if that's wrong, the pitches are affected.

    Others have commented that sometimes producers decide to increase the tempo of a recording to make it "more exciting". In the older days, this would be increasing pitch accordingly.

    Today or course, with digital, we can change the tempos whilst maintaining the pitch.

    I've done this myself when I've felt a part would work better faster or slower.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by The Twickerman View Post
    The issue isn't the speed of the performance, but the speed of playback of the recording. Of course if that's wrong, the pitches are affected.
    Yes, it would make no sense to change the *tempo* of a live performance to fit that of the original studio version, and that's not what I've been talking about. Just, assuming that musicians have tuned up and are playing the material in the original keys (which is the case 99.99% of the time, usually only when bands with ageing vocalists accommodate their reduced range; and if they do that for one tune, they usually don't for more, and I'm always checking at least one song early in the performance and one towards the end, as frequently there are changes in tape speed on very old recordings, where faltering batteries had an effect).
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  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    This has been a 40 year, or more, practice with Robert Fripp. I saw The League Of Gentlemen in the very early 80s and a similar thing happened. There was no advanced notice I remembered. The incident happened early in the set - someone took a picture, I could see the bulb flash. Fripp immediately stopped the show and lectured the audience about taking pictures. I'm can't recall exactly but I think he threatened to end the show completely. No other photography took place after the first incident. It was an unpleasant experiene but I was such a fan of this music and just concentrated on the performance that did take place.

    Around the same time, Fripp gave a lecture at the university I was attending. It was mostly a lecture but included some soloing in between the lecture. One couple in front of my was pretty vocal about experting more music and less talk. It was a small auditorium and they could clearly be heard. Fripp eviscerated the couple with a direct dressing down and imitating there initial objections.

    I've seen KC several times during the 80s and 90s after that time and never saw a repeat of this type of behaviour.
    I had no idea! Really wishing I would have caught a League of Crafty Guitarists show. Mr. Fripp seems to have the temperament of an orchestra player, which I respect, but then the ESP angle he engages in brings it all into the realm of the ridiculous.

  5. #55
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquatarkus View Post
    I had no idea! Really wishing I would have caught a League of Crafty Guitarists show. Mr. Fripp seems to have the temperament of an orchestra player, which I respect, but then the ESP angle he engages in brings it all into the realm of the ridiculous.
    Definitley tempermental but I have to say all if forgiven on my side as KC and off shot shows are amongst the best live music I ever witnessed. It is a bit ridiculous though.
    What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it brings forth a sound.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Sampaio Barbosa View Post
    Hi Sean, Bruno here. It's just from the low resolution Laserdisc (4:3 letterbox) transfer released in Japan in early 90s. I cropped removing the horizontal black bars and then i just upscaled it and converted to a better display presentation. A little bit of noise reduction, ajustments of luminance and color. The source is poor. I found various versions for this concert on Youtube but i though that any of them shows good clarity, so i did this one. Nothing special. Hope some day we can see it restored and remastered in 4k from the original film reels...
    Cheers!
    For sure, but I still have my memory of watching this in a theatre in Dayton OH with a special install sound system. None of the copies look as good as the one show on Night Flight in the 80s.
    One person’s noise is another’s signal.


  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    For sure, but I still have my memory of watching this in a theatre in Dayton OH with a special install sound system. None of the copies look as good as the one show on Night Flight in the 80s.
    I remember hearing talk that the reason the version that was put out that super deluxe version of A Trick Of A Tail about 10 or whatever it was years ago, they had to use a lower than optimal resolution on everything, because it was being piggybacked, as a "bonus feature" on the disc with the super spiffy surround sound mix of the album. That's probably where the versions that are on Youtube are sourced from.

  8. #58
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    This is still my favorite version of Apocalypse In 9/8 and As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs. When I first got into Genesis, this was my first exposure to the Gabriel era stuff, via it's occasional showings on the USA Network's old Night Flight show. One thing I like is Bruford's drumming during Hackett's solo during As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs, and I also like Banks and Hackett playing the parts that had been played by Gabriel on flute originally.
    though my first Genesis album was Selling (circa 74, and I was barely 12), it wasn't an instant hit, and I was WTF on some tracks, partly because of the odd sounds >> next to Dark Side of Crime ot cEntury, this wax slice sounded weird. Around that time I also totally WTF'd about VdGG and GG as well.
    It took Trick (and later Wind) to really get me into the band (Trick is still my fave). By the time W&W was out, I'd bought most of the Gabriel-era albums , but was still not really into it. It really took Seconds Out's versions to start me on them albums. I still prefer SO's Supper version that Foxtrot's. And it's a tie between both version of Cinema Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by paythesnuka View Post
    I had forgotten how much Rutherford moved around while playing back then. When I first started seeing them in the '80s, he pretty much stayed in one place and moving a little in place. I guess a lot of things changed when Hackett left and he started doing more lead guitar parts.
    That was just about the only tour where Rutherford moved around a lot. The footage I've seen of them from the Gabriel years and from every subsequent tour suggests that this was the one tour where he made any real attempt to be a showman. And of course, during the Gabriel years, he often times sat onstage.

    I think what must have happened was, with Peter being such a strong visual performer, the entire band apparently felt they had to "bump up their" showmanship. Well, maybe not Tony, but note also this was the first tour where Hackett stood onstage, and though you don't see it in the film, both Hackett and Rutherford took turns talking to the audience. I've got a couple bootlegs where Rutherford tells a rather lengthy story preceding White Mountain. I think this was the only tour where anyone other than Peter or Phil did spoke to the audience.
    Never knew that both guitarist tried their hand at being a bit of a frontman. I guess Phil was still unsure abiout himself at that point, though it didn't stop him from doing his timpani solos.

    As for mobility on stage, it's easier for a bassist to move around than an pedal-effect-laden guitarist. For Rutherford's stances during the Gabe-era, this can be checked in the more numerous concert and broadcasts from those years. t one point, in the Belgian TV special, one can't help but be amazed that only Gabriel is standing.

    Another thing that strikes that era of the band on stage is that they were touring all those hockey arena and were buying those NHL shirts in the souvenir shops and wearing them onstage to get a positive vibe from the crowds. Broof's Bruins, Mike's Maple Leaf and Phil's Habs. I seem to remember a Penguins shirt on one of them as well.
    BTW, I have an anecdote of the at ATTWT band's tour where Collins yells "Bonsoir Montréal" at their Maple Leaf Gardens' gig. Given the political crisis of the times, you can imagine how that went down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquatarkus View Post
    What wonderful footage. I was only ten at the time and too young to attend but this group was my first exposure to Genesis. My mom was great at encouraging me to explore new music when I was young and that year she got me Wind and Wuthering for Christmas. I loved it from the start and so when Seconds Out released in 1977 I bought that with my paper route money and that was my first exposure to Gabriel era material. All the way through high school I preferred this Philip Collins version of Suppers Ready and Cinema Show. Bruford was the perfect choice to drum with them on their first tour sans Peter Gabriel. As much as I love the Gabriel era now, their is something special about Genesis in 1976. I still listen to A Trick of the Tail as much as any Genesis album.
    very similar experience (even down to the addiction financing method), but I had started before Trick and had all of them (including FGTR, but not Tresspass) by the time Seconds Out was out, by still not totally convinced.

    As much as Phil ruined the planet ever since ( ), I can't thank him enough to have sung those Gabe tunes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquatarkus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    Reading Bruford's comments about his time in the band, he really seems to slog them off as lightweight and not worth his time. His performance in this footage really shines, though. It looks like he was engaged rather than just sleepwalking.
    B.B has said more than once that he found his short collaboration with Genesis rather boring, mainly because there was no room for any improvisation and he was asked to play the same thing the same way every night (which actually he didn't). And Genesis members didn’t appreciate either the freedoms he allowed himself to reinterpret some drum parts differently at each show. These (and also B.B planning his future solo project) are the main reasons why the collaboration didn't last, but the fans really loved it (and still do).
    This. The comments I've read from him suggest that because he was a hired gun and not involved in the actual writing of the material it didn't suit him for more than one tour, but what a treat to hear him interpret those parts in a live setting. I don't think he's ever said that he regretted doing it. Bruford throughout his career was a restless, hungry artist, always looking to keep pushing himself and creating new music and sounds.
    Well as much as most of us love the fact that it did happen, it was obviously a mismatch right from the start, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    No, he has no regrets and allways stayed very positive and grateful about the way he has been treated by the band members (he can't say the same about his other boss, Mr. R.Fripp). And in the Genesis (Chapter & Verse) book he even apologize for the somewhat egotistical way he acted then and say that if he ever has the opportunity to do it again he would do it differently.
    mmmhhh!!!... Remember hearing a France Inter night interview (in English) and he didn't seem all that thankfull to the band, as he dismissed it quickly this part of his career as an interim job (which is basically what it was).
    As for his "egostistical ways", it's probably coming from his Yes days (where it seems it was the way ti survive in the band)
    I can't see this kind of conduct being something that his Frippness would've tolerated much in Crimson.


    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Twickerman View Post
    The issue isn't the speed of the performance, but the speed of playback of the recording. Of course if that's wrong, the pitches are affected.
    Yes, it would make no sense to change the *tempo* of a live performance to fit that of the original studio version, and that's not what I've been talking about.
    Yeah, sorry, that was my clumsy comment, not even reflecting correctly what I meant to say.
    Last edited by Trane; 1 Week Ago at 06:41 AM.
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  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Never knew that both guitarist tried their hand at being a bit of a frontman. I guess Phil was still unsure abiout himself at that point, though it didn't stop him from doing his timpani solos.
    I assume by "timpani" solo, you're talking about the tambourine thing he'd do during I Know What I Like. As I said, Mike would introduce White Mountain, and at least on the bootlegs I have, Steve introduced Entangled, saying it was inspired by a painting by Kim Poor.

    Phil has said a lot of times that he initially was worried about what he was going to do between the songs, because of how good Peter had gotten with the stories and everything. He said he was more worried about than the actual singing. But as you can hear on the Cleveland and Pittsburgh recordings, which came fairly early in the tour (first night was London, Ontario, I believe Pittsburgh was something like the 8th or 9th show of the tour), Phil was doing quite well with it.


    As for mobility on stage, it's easier for a bassist to move around than an pedal-effect-laden guitarist. For Rutherford's stances during the Gabe-era, this can be checked in the more numerous concert and broadcasts from those years. t one point, in the Belgian TV special, one can't help but be amazed that only Gabriel is standing.
    Yeah, I remember Peter saying something to the effect that it was down to him provide some stage presence, as the others "didn't give a damn, because they were all sitting". Mind you, though, remember that Mike wasn't just a bassist, he also played rhythm guitar and bass pedals, so he often times had to stand in one place to deal with that.

    I remember Daryl Steurmer saying in Guitar Player back in 84 that he wished they could put a mirror behind him, angled back, so that the audience couldn't see he wasn't just standing in one place, tapping his foot (i.e. the "foot tapping" was him playing bass pedals).

    BTW, I have an anecdote of the at ATTWT band's tour where Collins yells "Bonsoir Montréal" at their Maple Leaf Gardens' gig. Given the political crisis of the times, you can imagine how that went down.
    What political crisis was that? Was it similar to that idiot Dave Mustaine dedicating a song to the IRA while performing Belfast?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post

    What political crisis was that? Was it similar to that idiot Dave Mustaine dedicating a song to the IRA while performing Belfast?
    The possibility of Quebec's secession from Canada was a real thing. It never gained enough traction, but there were some agitating for it.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I remember hearing talk that the reason the version that was put out that super deluxe version of A Trick Of A Tail about 10 or whatever it was years ago, they had to use a lower than optimal resolution on everything, because it was being piggybacked, as a "bonus feature" on the disc with the super spiffy surround sound mix of the album. That's probably where the versions that are on Youtube are sourced from.
    Yes on the Genesis remixes DVD that used most of the data for DTS 96/24 which is high bit rate. That was stupid. They should have gone with DVD audio and released a separate disc for it. I think there was a Genesis videos release but not that.
    One person’s noise is another’s signal.


  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    The possibility of Quebec's secession from Canada was a real thing. It never gained enough traction, but there were some agitating for it.
    that was indeed one of the two main factors, but with the extreme rivalry between the Habs & the Leafs, saying Bonsoir to Montréal in the MLG was definitely a another no-no as well.
    Fortunately for Phil, he'd stopped wearing a Habs shirt on that tour (I believe they all did stop wearing hockey shirts for a while)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    RE; Bruford with Genesis. Absolutely loved 'The Cinema Show' on Seconds Out. But when I later heard more material from this tour, I didn't think it was the best fit. A track like 'The Lamb...' makes that clear, IMHO.

    It was never going to be a long-term thing but it was an amiable relationship. ISTR in the book Chapter And Verse Rutherford said that having Bruford in the band was a big draw; some were going to see him as much as them.

  14. #64
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    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Genesis:_In_Concert

    Home video
    The film was released on laserdisc in Japan in 1992.

    The 2007 reissue of A Trick of the Tail includes Genesis: In Concert as a feature on a bonus DVD.

    The film was taken from the videotape master used for the laserdisc instead of a fresh transfer from film elements. Possibly as a result of reusing the laserdisc release's master, the DVD's audio and video are sped up to the PAL framerate (25 fps, when the original film elements may have been shot at 24 fps) and the pitch of the soundtrack is not corrected for the 4.167% increase in playback speed.[original research?]
    One person’s noise is another’s signal.


  15. #65
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    Laserdisc Transfer

    https://youtu.be/1RoKJQNREII
    One person’s noise is another’s signal.


  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    The possibility of Quebec's secession from Canada was a real thing. It never gained enough traction, but there were some agitating for it.
    Ah, I figured it must have something to do it. I remember hearing about that in the 90's, though, I didn't know the whole secession movement went back to the late 70's.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Ah, I figured it must have something to do it. I remember hearing about that in the 90's, though, I didn't know the whole secession movement went back to the late 70's.
    I think they even had a separatist political party.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Another thing that strikes that era of the band on stage is that they were touring all those hockey arena and were buying those NHL shirts in the souvenir shops and wearing them onstage to get a positive vibe from the crowds. Broof's Bruins, Mike's Maple Leaf and Phil's Habs. I seem to remember a Penguins shirt on one of them as well.
    BB was wearing the BB logo before he played with Genesis.


  19. #69
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Ah, I figured it must have something to do it. I remember hearing about that in the 90's, though, I didn't know the whole secession movement went back to the late 70's.
    When you heard about it in the 90's, it was the second referendum (51/49), the first in 1980 was 60/40.

    still not realy confirmed but the US massed +/- 1 000 000 soldiers along their border with La Belle province , in case it happened (they were afraid of another Cuba, controlling the electricity supply of the BosNYWash area).


    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I think they even had a separatist political party.
    Parti Québécois with the provincial premier René Lévesque, the one that Harmonium toured in California with. It got to power in 76 (the year of the Olympics) and lost the referendum in 80, though they remained in power for the next term.

    ===============

    anyways, we're getting side-tracked here.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Another thing that strikes that era of the band on stage is that they were touring all those hockey arena and were buying those NHL shirts in the souvenir shops and wearing them onstage to get a positive vibe from the crowds. Broof's Bruins, Mike's Maple Leaf and Phil's Habs. I seem to remember a Penguins shirt on one of them as well.
    One time I posted a YouTube link of Procol Harum mid 70's on Facebook and a friend commented that some band members were also wearing hockey jerseys.

  21. #71
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    The story of Phil Collins' first show as the lead singer of Genesis
    By Chris Roberts (Prog) a day ago

    How “the guy-next-door” drummer Phil Collins saved the day after Peter Gabriel left

    https://www.loudersound.com/features...ger-of-genesis
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    The story of Phil Collins' first show as the lead singer of Genesis
    By Chris Roberts (Prog) a day ago

    How “the guy-next-door” drummer Phil Collins saved the day after Peter Gabriel left

    https://www.loudersound.com/features...ger-of-genesis
    Great article... thanks! Not really much new but very well put together... one thing I thought was new that Jon Anderson went to Phil's wedding and urged Phil to take on the lead singer role. Thought that was very cool.

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    ^No Jon, no Phil! 😃

  24. #74
    Banned Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Jon Anderson ruined Genesis!

  25. #75
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Jon ruined yes as well
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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