Thread: COVID-19 Coronavirus Information and Discussion

  1. #2076
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Not trying to offend anyone, just trying to understand why the situation in USA apparently is worse than over here. You can't blame the president for everything?
    Isn't the situation in USA (besides the presidential management) difficult because the state/government is weak, and the americans are VERY diverse ?
    Almost like India...?

    You have 50 states with different legislation, cultures, 'leadership', generally not much help or security to poor people, and a general state of education where people dont know whats going on outside US, and don't know the difference between a Lego kit and a defibrillator. And many hates authorities.


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e_iOSApp_Other

  2. #2077
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Not trying to offend anyone, just trying to understand why the situation in USA apparently is worse than over here. You can't blame the president for everything?
    In 2016 Donald Trump gave more reasons not to vote for him than Progressive Ears has space to list them, yet sixty some million still voted for him. Now you expect these sixty some million people to all of the sudden listen to reality and do what is needed to curb this virus. You can't put all the blame on the president, most of the blame falls on the people who put him in the position to protect this country. You need to come over here and walk a mile in our shoes.
    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!

  3. #2078
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Why do some COVID-19 patients infect many others, whereas most don’t spread the virus at all?

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...read-virus-all

    "Probably about 10% of cases lead to 80% of the spread.
    Adam Kucharski, London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine"

  4. #2079
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    ^ I'll try not to cross the line here...The patchwork response you see in the USA is because the administration has made a conscious decision not to have a national approach to dealing with the pandemic. This is being done partially to show the superiority of Federalism, (his words, not mine) and make the case for "states rights," which since before the Civil War has been a hallmark of the strain of political thought that is now in power.
    There are other reasons that have to do with this administration specifically, as well as the split in world views and culture currently dominating American life, but I will refrain from elaborating on those.

  5. #2080
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    In 2016 Donald Trump gave more reasons not to vote for him than Progressive Ears has space to list them, yet sixty some million still voted for him. Now you expect these sixty some million people to all of the sudden listen to reality and do what is needed to curb this virus. You can't put all the blame on the president, most of the blame falls on the people who put him in the position to protect this country. You need to come over here and walk a mile in our shoes.
    I agree - the questionmark after that sentence was at least ambiguous.

    USA is the land of opportunity, the richest and most powerfull nation in the world, etc. etc., but in the particular case of fighting a pandemy there seem to be a fatal design flaw.

  6. #2081
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Not trying to offend anyone, just trying to understand why the situation in USA apparently is worse than over here. You can't blame the president for everything? Isn't the situation in USA (besides the presidential management) difficult because the state/government is weak, and the americans are VERY diverse ?
    You won't offend me. Yes, the problems we have in the USA are much larger than the administration. There is a deep culture war here. Everything in our lives has become political and has deepened that cultural divide. Just look at the mask article you shared. Masks have become a misplaced symbol of freedom and defiance vs. civil responsibility and mindfulness.

    Because we are divided politically and tend to look at life through this lens, life has become one big sports rivalry. That's really the best analogy. Life in the USA is becoming the most vitriolic sports rivalry between two teams. It's democrat vs. republican, liberal vs. conservative, white vs. black. Every issue quickly becomes political and gets two sides. And very quickly after that, your average person begins to believe or parrot the position taken by their team. Again, just look at the masks issue.

    But we are also a sensationalistic country, so when we find 1 person in a hair salon that worked there recently while infected, it makes national news and sparks all the debates again. Polls show that most people feel their governor is doing a good job with handling their state. It doesn't appear that way because the federal government publicly abdicated responsibility and pits the state leaders against the government and each other. We created a national ruckus about shutting down and and even more ridiculous one about opening up. And the rabid "sports fans" were more than eager to stoke that fire among each other, even when you consider that reopening for most states occurred at just about the same time.

    Sorry for the longer post. I have more on my mind but won't say it here.

    But if you really want to summarize everything that is happening in the USA over the last few years, it can pretty much be boiled down to chaos vs. order, division vs. unity, individualism vs. societism, fiction vs. truth.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  7. #2082
    The spirit was freedom and justice
    And its keepers seemed generous and kind
    Its leaders were supposed to serve the country
    But now they won't pay it no mind
    Cause the people grew fat and got lazy
    Now their vote is a meaningless joke
    They babble about law and order
    But it's all just an echo of what they've been told

    Yeah, there's a monster on the loose
    It's got our heads into the noose
    And it just sits there watchin'
    "A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words."

    - Dr. Winston O'Boogie

  8. #2083
    Orange Tick Squasher Buddhabreath's Avatar
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    You won't offend me. Yes, the problems we have in the USA are much larger than the administration. There is a deep culture war here. Everything in our lives has become political and has deepened that cultural divide. Just look at the mask article you shared. Masks have become a misplaced symbol of freedom and defiance vs. civil responsibility and mindfulness.
    It is even simpler than that. We have a major political party that has gone off the rails. That party has been fighting science since at least 1980. The same political party that denies anthropogenic global warming - the only major political party in the world that does so as far as I’m aware. All of this is on the public record and is not debatable any more than if men landed on the moon. Unfortunately it seems if you stand up for science and truth, you must 1. automatically be partisan or 2. you are biased and ignoring the few cases on the other side which are the exceptions that prove the rule.

    People here in the United States of Amnesia like to forget or deny this. Reagan’s Interior Secretary James Watt said “We don’t have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand.”, Reagan himself said Back in 1981 that trees "cause more pollution than automobiles do." Today, James Inhofe the Republican chairman of the Senate Environment Committee from 2003 to 2007 and again from 2015 to 2017, wrote a book titled “The Greatest Hoax: How the Global Warming Conspiracy Threatens Your Future”. The same man that said, “...could it be that manmade global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people? I believe it is.” This may sound unbelievable to a European or any educated, rational adult but it’s true - you can find it in the congressional records right here. He famously brought a snowball onto the floor of the Senate. Yes, the chairman of the Senate Environmental Committee and distinguished author cannot even distinguish between climate and weather! This simply does not happen on the other side, certainly not from leadership and if you can find an example at all it is outlier, an exception that proves the rule - a “nut”. The Republicans elevate the nuts into leadership roles.

    So you see - this dangerous distrust and denial of science is mostly on one side so it is no surprise that we hear again the voices of denial that Covid-19 is no worse than the flu, the disease will magically disappear, that hydroxychloroquine is safe and efficacious etc. etc. etc ad nauseam coming from that one side.

    So tell me, how do I fight these dangerous lies without appearing partisan, without being on a “team” (if it’s Team Science, then yes count me in), without being “vitriolic” and taking sides? Must I pledge allegiance to the United States of Amnesia? History has taught us that sometimes truth and decency and even survival depend on good people stepping up and taking sides.

    <Edit> Just one example showing the impact and divide on science: in the latest YouGov poll, when asked “Do you believe it is true or false that a laboratory in China was the origin of the virus responsible for COVID-19?” 80% of Republicans said it is definitely or probably true whereas 25% of Democrats said so. This reflects the messages coming from their respective leaderships. What’s next? Anti-vaccine movement could undermine efforts to end coronavirus pandemic, researchers warn. We ignore this divide and play the “both sides” game at our peril!
    Last edited by Buddhabreath; 1 Day Ago at 10:45 AM.
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  9. #2084
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    ^^^ If you want to keep it simple, I essentially said the same thing in my last paragraph.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  10. #2085
    Orange Tick Squasher Buddhabreath's Avatar
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    ^^^
    You did indeed albeit in neutral terms belying the point regards “both sides”. I don’t disagree with what you wrote, I’m looking at it from another perspective.
    "I am the fucking click track!" - Ringo Starr

  11. #2086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddhabreath View Post
    It is even simpler than that. We have a major political party that has gone off the rails, that has been fighting science since at least 1980, that denies anthropogenic global warming: the only major political party in the world that does so as far as I’m aware.
    It's more that they are on their own rails, which have entirely to do with those currently at the top staying at the top forever - and for that to happen, those at the bottom must be told that what they want to believe is true, and told anything else is a lie. They must be told the Truth™, which is manufactured and created just for them. Senator Moynihan once said, "You are entitled to your own opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts," and that may be the case. But events have gotten to the point where you are also entitled to your own truth, and your own definition of your own truth, and in many cases, that has become the Truth™ - which you hear on your favorite talk shows, and from the only acceptable "news" channel, and from the pulpit on Sunday, and from those politicians you must vote for.

    Although that mentality isn't just on one side, and that's scary. I once got in an argument with a quite liberal, lesbian-feminist barista over the phrase, "her truth". I was saying, "No, there is not her truth, or his truth, or anybody's truth, there is only the truth. And the truth encompasses different perceptions, different viewpoints, one thing that this person said and did and meant, and one thing that person said and did and meant, and one interpretation this person has, and one interpretation that person has. But there is still only one thing that happened, one thing those people said and did and meant - though it does include those differing perceptions and interpretations as part of it.

    This is getting off into philosophy, but I think it's worth bringing up.

  12. #2087
    Orange Tick Squasher Buddhabreath's Avatar
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    ^^^ Yes, while I’m sure we could have a fascinating discussion about this, I agree it would be a complicated philosophical/epistemological discussion. Can we suffice it to say, speaking of rails, that it is not always easy to “tell a green field from a cold steel rail”?
    "I am the fucking click track!" - Ringo Starr

  13. #2088
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddhabreath View Post
    ^^^ Yes, while I’m sure we could have a fascinating discussion about this, I agree it would be a complicated philosophical/epistemological discussion. Can we suffice it to say, speaking of rails, that it is not always easy to “tell a green field from a cold steel rail”?
    Please don't bring Roger Waters into this, it could soon go off rails again.
    After all, he also wrote "Take Up Thy Stethoscope and Walk", which dangerously mixes medicine and religion.
    Last edited by Interstellar; 1 Day Ago at 02:19 PM.

  14. #2089
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    Move along...nothing to see here...

    pandemicloot.jpg

  15. #2090
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    How Sweden wasted a ‘rare opportunity’ to study coronavirus in schools
    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...avirus-schools


    "Because children rarely suffer severe symptoms of COVID-19, pediatricians in several countries have called for schools to reopen. But a key question remains: Because people with mild symptoms can be extremely infectious and frequently spark large clusters of infections, could schools also be a source of COVID-19 outbreaks, possibly driven by children who feel fine but can pass the virus to each other, their teachers, and their families?"

  16. #2091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    You won't offend me. Yes, the problems we have in the USA are much larger than the administration. There is a deep culture war here. Everything in our lives has become political and has deepened that cultural divide. Just look at the mask article you shared. Masks have become a misplaced symbol of freedom and defiance vs. civil responsibility and mindfulness.

    Because we are divided politically and tend to look at life through this lens, life has become one big sports rivalry. That's really the best analogy. Life in the USA is becoming the most vitriolic sports rivalry between two teams. It's democrat vs. republican, liberal vs. conservative, white vs. black. Every issue quickly becomes political and gets two sides. And very quickly after that, your average person begins to believe or parrot the position taken by their team. Again, just look at the masks issue.

    But we are also a sensationalistic country, so when we find 1 person in a hair salon that worked there recently while infected, it makes national news and sparks all the debates again. Polls show that most people feel their governor is doing a good job with handling their state. It doesn't appear that way because the federal government publicly abdicated responsibility and pits the state leaders against the government and each other. We created a national ruckus about shutting down and and even more ridiculous one about opening up. And the rabid "sports fans" were more than eager to stoke that fire among each other, even when you consider that reopening for most states occurred at just about the same time.

    Sorry for the longer post. I have more on my mind but won't say it here.

    But if you really want to summarize everything that is happening in the USA over the last few years, it can pretty much be boiled down to chaos vs. order, division vs. unity, individualism vs. societism, fiction vs. truth.

    Nicely put!
    Just sitting at home rocking back and forth and jealously caressing my invisible collection of theoretical assets.

  17. #2092
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    You won't offend me. Yes, the problems we have in the USA are much larger than the administration. There is a deep culture war here. Everything in our lives has become political and has deepened that cultural divide. Just look at the mask article you shared. Masks have become a misplaced symbol of freedom and defiance vs. civil responsibility and mindfulness.

    Because we are divided politically and tend to look at life through this lens, life has become one big sports rivalry. That's really the best analogy. Life in the USA is becoming the most vitriolic sports rivalry between two teams. It's democrat vs. republican, liberal vs. conservative, white vs. black. Every issue quickly becomes political and gets two sides. And very quickly after that, your average person begins to believe or parrot the position taken by their team. Again, just look at the masks issue.

    But we are also a sensationalistic country, so when we find 1 person in a hair salon that worked there recently while infected, it makes national news and sparks all the debates again. Polls show that most people feel their governor is doing a good job with handling their state. It doesn't appear that way because the federal government publicly abdicated responsibility and pits the state leaders against the government and each other. We created a national ruckus about shutting down and and even more ridiculous one about opening up. And the rabid "sports fans" were more than eager to stoke that fire among each other, even when you consider that reopening for most states occurred at just about the same time.

    Sorry for the longer post. I have more on my mind but won't say it here.

    But if you really want to summarize everything that is happening in the USA over the last few years, it can pretty much be boiled down to chaos vs. order, division vs. unity, individualism vs. societism, fiction vs. truth.
    Thanks !

  18. #2093
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Many of the Covid-19 deniers I've encountered in the last couple of months were certain that cellphones caused cancer, especially in-ear bluetooth devices. I explained to one person that cellphone "waves" permeate the atmosphere around us regardless of whether or not you have a cellphone. He shot back, "then why are more cellphone users getting brain cancer than non-users?" I asked him where he got his info and he exclaimed that it's been all over the news. I said, "so I guess the chemtrails weren't getting the job done, eh?"

  19. #2094
    I have to little to say here that would not be considered political. But today, Greg Abbot, our governor, wrote about opening the state, on his twitter account. All the messages that followed accused the democrats of making up Covid to damage Trump. There is no arguing with that kind of idiocy. The disease is worldwide, 17000 papers have been written about it, its killed 100,000 people, and this was a plot by American democrats? And people believe that? Or, do they really? Is it more that they have been given permission to hate those with whom they disagree or whom they consider Other?
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  20. #2095
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    All this disdain for Covid-19 protocol reminds me of the time about 12 years ago when our local university's president had to put the football program to sleep - it had operated in the red, 6 digits in the red, for several years. Even when the program was very competitive it failed to draw significant attendance, most of the time the visiting team outnumbered the home team in attendance and had a laughable road attendance. Yet all anyone could talk about is how that "liberal bastard" yanked the football program away from the community. There have been many times when the subject comes up that I remind people that "if everyone who'd ever bitched about losing the football program had actually bought tickets to attend games, then we'd still have a football program." Of course that sentiment makes me a pinko socialist with soccer agenda (I hate soccer).

    This kind of anti-whatever sentiment has existed for decades regardless of who was in the White House. All it takes is for someone to fan the smoke a little.

  21. #2096
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Amen to that. Our oldest citizens know what real sacrifice is. Here's a hint: It's not being forced to stay indoors for a couple of months with your TV, computer, Internet, mobile phones, streaming movies, food deliveries, etc.
    Yeah, who are these people who HAVE TO go to the beach and stuff? I haven't been on a beach in ages. It's kind of gross - they have to get back to their beer-commercial lives.

  22. #2097
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Yeah, who are these people who HAVE TO go to the beach and stuff? I haven't been on a beach in ages. It's kind of gross - they have to get back to their beer-commercial lives.
    People resist anything that they feel limits them. It's why car insurance is so high. We have uniformed officers patrolling the roads and highways to enforce traffic laws regarding speeding, seatbelts and distracted driving and people bitch because they want the right to break those rules regardless of any notions of safety. People want what they can't have. And they're behaving like petulant children in front their own impressionable children.

  23. #2098
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Unethical and selfish - yes, but isn't that more or less what stocktrading is all about?
    What info could they have had ? Nobody really knew anything but what you could read - its just good guessing: Will the chinese problem spread or not.

    In Denmark a guy made a fortune (ca 500 k $) when he smelled the rat just by reading the newspapers about covid-19 in China.
    I didn't sell because I was to slow, and was adviced not to - but in Denmark most of the danish stocks are coming up again. In a few years they are back.
    Martha Stewart

  24. #2099
    "Parents Defend UT Students Who Went on Spring Break and Got Coronavirus"

    ZEUHLMATE, THIS IS WHY WE HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM IN AMERICA
    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!

  25. #2100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    You won't offend me. Yes, the problems we have in the USA are much larger than the administration. There is a deep culture war here. Everything in our lives has become political and has deepened that cultural divide. Just look at the mask article you shared. Masks have become a misplaced symbol of freedom and defiance vs. civil responsibility and mindfulness.

    Because we are divided politically and tend to look at life through this lens, life has become one big sports rivalry. That's really the best analogy. Life in the USA is becoming the most vitriolic sports rivalry between two teams. It's democrat vs. republican, liberal vs. conservative, white vs. black. Every issue quickly becomes political and gets two sides. And very quickly after that, your average person begins to believe or parrot the position taken by their team. Again, just look at the masks issue.

    But we are also a sensationalistic country, so when we find 1 person in a hair salon that worked there recently while infected, it makes national news and sparks all the debates again. Polls show that most people feel their governor is doing a good job with handling their state. It doesn't appear that way because the federal government publicly abdicated responsibility and pits the state leaders against the government and each other. We created a national ruckus about shutting down and and even more ridiculous one about opening up. And the rabid "sports fans" were more than eager to stoke that fire among each other, even when you consider that reopening for most states occurred at just about the same time.

    Sorry for the longer post. I have more on my mind but won't say it here.

    But if you really want to summarize everything that is happening in the USA over the last few years, it can pretty much be boiled down to chaos vs. order, division vs. unity, individualism vs. societism, fiction vs. truth.
    PY, your posts are always a tonic to me, as you write very well and manage to express things in a very non-confrontational manner. I find your "sports" analogy to be spot-on. If I may, I'd like to say that of your four "VS." categories in your last paragraph, the only one I would take partial exception to is "individualism vs. societism", but that's only because I belong to what I firmly believe is still a significant segment of the population who follow a path of rational self-interest; I believe strongly in my own right to follow my own path, but not at the expense of another. The current crisis has polarized much of the population, no doubt, but I think if those of us in the middle, who are willing to sacrifice some of our individual freedoms temporarily for the greater good remain vocal about exactly why we're behaving the way we are (wearing masks, for example), we can elevate the conversation above the "us vs. them" level. Perhaps Pollyanna-ish, but I'm comfortable with it.
    David
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