COVID-19 Coronavirus Information and Discussion

[Don Arnold]

On the bright side, every time I use my credit card I get back between 1% and 4% of the transaction as a "dividend" paid to me in November. With all these forced credit card transactions, I should have a pretty hefty payment coming to me in November.

What bank/financial institution is your credit card from? (if you don't mind my asking) I have a Scotiabank visa which gives 1% cash back on all purchases, and an additional 1% on grocery store and gas charges. We also get our payment in November, and it's usually around the $750 mark. Great timing with Christmas the following month.

[Duncan Glenday]

"Tender" means "offer." The bills do not say anything about acceptance. There is no law regarding this, aside from local ones like in Philadelphia. I'm sorry if this upsets any long-held beliefs.

I understand what you described, and it is "correct", though I don't think it's "right". (When I said I didn't think it was legal to refuse cash I wasn't referring to the text on the notes - just a long-held impression.)

The fact is : Any vendor can accept or reject whatever payment method that suits them. On the other hand any customer has the option to bring their business to that vendor, or walk away and take their business elsewhere.

But under over-arching principle there's no protection for the needy who may only have cash and are not able to use plastic / Apple-Pay / PayPal / Smart-Tag at toll roads / ... etc.

[Sunlight Caller]

COVID U.K. update....

We are seeing some resurgence and many local lockdowns, but they are really putting the scare on us today, warning of 50,000 cases per day within a month if the growth rate keeps doubling every 7 days as it seems to be on tack for at present. It’s an attempt to change behaviour and stop the spread, but there has been so much mixed-messaging that I’m not sure it will have the desired impact. I just hope we come in some way less than this, but it seems we are in for a pretty miserable winter of restricted movement and viral spread.

[Jerjo]

We rarely go beyond our own rural county for shopping. We drive to a small city an hour and a half away about once a month to hit Target (thus avoiding spending $$$ at the WalHell 35 miles away from us). But we finally have a Costco three hours away (in Bismarck ND). So on Wednesday we will make a run and stock up like our lives depend on it. It's a long run but I can get a year's supply of a lot of crap that we normally pay out of the nose for (I've checked the prices, we get screwed where we regularly shop). So it's masks and plastic glasses on while we shop and then we will hunker down for...months. An odd way to live but it beats getting exposed shopping in a store with oil-field butt plugs that think masks "restrict their freedom". I hope these fuckers die. I also hope they don't vote.

[progmatist]

Another aspect of the cash v cashless debate: most low income people in the US can't and don't use banks, for 2 main reasons. First, the fee to cash a check at a check cashing store is less than the typical monthly bank fees. Add to that the penalties for not maintaining a minimum balance. Second, most low income people don't have a sufficient credit rating to open a bank account, even if they wanted to.

[Jerjo]

I also just reactivated Apple Pay on my phone. I don't do that often because I don't like having my phone locked (it stays home, like me). But it will be convenient and touchless when we're on our supply run. When we're home, even though a couple local businesses accept Apple Pay, I don't use it because it means setting up that damn passcode/thumbprint bullshit again. Most businesses out here have no problem with cash.

[rdclark]

^ Well, we're not going to agree on this, but that looks like a distinction without a difference. As for acceptance, it's implied and follows on from the printed phrase. Some have found that inconvenient, and they apparently have clout. It might be interesting to see how things were done historically after bartering fell into disuse.

What's right and just is one thing, and obviously subject to dis/agreement or debate. But what the law says is what the law says. I summarized it above, but below is the text from https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

You do seem to be stuck on a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "tender." "Legal tender" does not mean, nor ever has, "must be accepted." It just doesn't. It is not "implied." "Legal tender" means that within the jurisdiction of the issuer, the value of the currency is agreed upon and that therefore it can be used to settle monetary debts. Can be.

Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise.

Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.

And this, from the Treasury at
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-ce...al-tender.aspx

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

[moecurlythanu]

^ You appear to be right, but then printing that phrase on the currency is kind of silly (in a "stating the obvious" kind of way.) Maybe it's more of a hold over from times when the use of paper notes was still not as universal as it has come to be.

[rdclark]

The phrase declares that the bill's value is supported and fixed by the laws of the land, and if you owe $xx, then $xx worth of these bills represents an amount equal to that debt.

Maybe it's a less revolutionary concept than it once was, as you suggest, but it's not nothing.

Personally, while I continue to carry and use cash routinely -- it's still the best medium for tipping, which is very important these days -- I also use all the electronic payment formats without discomfort. The ability to order, pay, and arrange deliveries remotely is now not just convenient but critical, so paying people in the manner that makes their work easier is a meaningful gesture.

One must always be vigilant, of course, and take nothing for granted.

[moecurlythanu]

Well, by feeling a necessity to state "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" on the currency itself implies that some may have been unsure that it was sufficient legal offering for said purchases (debts.) Since it was printed by the federal government to be currency for that purpose, it strikes me as...odd. Which is why I said it seems to state the obvious.

I notice we're way off the subject again, in fine PE fashion.

[rdclark]

I notice we're way off the subject again, in fine PE fashion.

One must always acknowledge tradition. But that's why I kept mentioning tipping in the era of Covid.

[Shadow]

My wife's covid test came back negative and she gets her knee cleaned out tomorrow.

[spellbound]

COVID U.K. update....

We are seeing some resurgence and many local lockdowns, but they are really putting the scare on us today, warning of 50,000 cases per day within a month if the growth rate keeps doubling every 7 days as it seems to be on tack for at present. It’s an attempt to change behaviour and stop the spread, but there has been so much mixed-messaging that I’m not sure it will have the desired impact. I just hope we come in some way less than this, but it seems we are in for a pretty miserable winter of restricted movement and viral spread.

Why use worst-case-scenario scare tactics when the real horror is right across the ocean for all to see: the United States. If our prevaricator-in-chief sees that '50,000 cases per day,' he will consider it a challenge.

[rdclark]

My wife's covid test came back negative and she gets her knee cleaned out tomorrow.

Talk about good news/bad news! Best of luck to her.

[ronmac]

I never took the term "legal tender" to mean anything more than an accepted from of payment.

[ForeverAutumn]

What bank/financial institution is your credit card from? (if you don't mind my asking) I have a Scotiabank visa which gives 1% cash back on all purchases, and an additional 1% on grocery store and gas charges. We also get our payment in November, and it's usually around the $750 mark. Great timing with Christmas the following month.

Scotiabank Momentum Visa Infinite card. https://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/per...nite-card.html

4% on Groceries and recurring payments
2% on gas and transit
1% on everything else.

It's a $120 annual fee, which I easily make back and net about $700 in November. But your post just made me look at Scotia's other cards and for $39/yr the Momentum Visa might actually be a better card for me. At the 2% difference on groceries and recurring payments, I would need to spend $4,000 to make back the $80 difference in fees. I definitely don't spend that much on groceries.

[ForeverAutumn]

I have stopped accumulating change because I tip more. Anybody who spends their days exposed to Covidiots deserves all the support I can afford them. I’ve always apparently been thought to be a generous tipper (in memory or my waitress mom, perhaps), but now I tip people I never used to. Anyone who provides personal service of any kind gets a tip.

I also find myself tipping more for the same reason. When Starbucks reopened back in April or May, I started tipping when I placed a mobile order, which is something that I never used to do. I also tip when we do take-out instead of eating in a restaurant. I do it because I feel for people who are taking a risk dealing with the public face-to-face. I also feel bad for people who weren't able to work for several months and lost income. I am very grateful that my job is (reasonably) secure and I'm able to work from home. I never take that for granted and I do what I can for those that aren't as lucky right now.

A couple of years ago, we had a major ice storm here and most of the city lost power for several days. Cash was king as debit and credit machines didn't work. Ever since then, I've made sure to maintain a collection of coins and $5 bills that can be used if similar circumstances occur again. If a store doesn't have change and you need to make a small purchase, it's much easier to sacrifice a fiver, and say "keep the change", than a twenty.

[Don Arnold]

Scotiabank Momentum Visa Infinite card. https://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/per...nite-card.html

4% on Groceries and recurring payments
2% on gas and transit
1% on everything else.

It's a $120 annual fee, which I easily make back and net about $700 in November. But your post just made me look at Scotia's other cards and for $39/yr the Momentum Visa might actually be a better card for me. At the 2% difference on groceries and recurring payments, I would need to spend $4,000 to make back the $80 difference in fees. I definitely don't spend that much on groceries.

Thanks for the info! I might consider switching to the Momemtum Infinite card. It would cost me $110 more in fees (we pay for one supplementary card) but we'd earn an additional $230 or so, based on our 2019 grocery purchases.

cheers

[Shadow]

I never took the term "legal tender" to mean anything more than an accepted from of payment.

I always thought it was a legal term for any woman 18 or older.

[ForeverAutumn]

Thanks for the info! I might consider switching to the Momemtum Infinite card. It would cost me $110 more in fees (we pay for one supplementary card) but we'd earn an additional $230 or so, based on our 2019 grocery purchases.

cheers

LOL! We could just swap cards. If Costco accepted Visa we’d have no trouble hitting that four grand. Now I need to do an analysis of our shopping habits.

[dropforge]

I always thought it was a legal term for any woman 18 or older.

[Duncan Glenday]

LOL! We could just swap cards. If Costco accepted Visa we’d have no trouble hitting that four grand. Now I need to do an analysis of our shopping habits.

Costco has a premier (or whatever it's called) membership level that gives you cash back. My gets a check from them about every 6 months.

[progmatist]

LOL! We could just swap cards. If Costco accepted Visa we’d have no trouble hitting that four grand. Now I need to do an analysis of our shopping habits.

As of about a year and a half, two years ago, Costco DOES accept Visa. In fact, it's now the only credit card they accept. They ended their deal with American Express, and struck a new one with Visa.

[rdclark]

As of about a year and a half, two years ago, Costco DOES accept Visa. In fact, it's now the only credit card they accept. They ended their deal with American Express, and struck a new one with Visa.

In Canada it's MasterCard, not Visa, I believe.

[Sunlight Caller]

Why use worst-case-scenario scare tactics when the real horror is right across the ocean for all to see: the United States. If our prevaricator-in-chief sees that '50,000 cases per day,' he will consider it a challenge.

Oh our government give yours a run for their money on ineptitude. As expected we now have lockdown lite... stay and work from home if you can, pubs and restaurants closed from 10 pm, no crowds at sports events, no gatherings of over 6 people, no indoor team sports ... with no doubt further draconian action if we do not see a turnaround.