Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Jazz Was Hated by the Prohibitionists

  1. #1
    Member Firth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Severn, MD
    Posts
    3,180

    Jazz Was Hated by the Prohibitionists

    On a post related to the ďWar of DrugsĒ, itís relationship to music is examined here:

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...holiday-114298
    One personís noise is anotherís signal.


  2. #2
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    hiding out in treetops, shouting out rude names
    Posts
    1,872
    In jazz's infancy, it was reviled by most whites because it was considered "black music"

  3. #3
    Outraged bystander markwoll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    2,297
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
    -- Aristotle
    Nostalgia, you know, ain't what it used to be. Furthermore, they tells me, it never was.
    ďA Man Who Does Not Read Has No Appreciable Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot ReadĒ - Unknown

  4. #4
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    The Past
    Posts
    1,884
    In the teens and twenties jazz was the musical equivalent of the coronavirus, a contagious pathogen to be eradicated. It pretty damn well has.

    https://news.jazzline.com/news/jazz-...r-music-genre/
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  5. #5
    Banned Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    42į09′30″N 71į08′43″W
    Posts
    3,043
    I guess it was probably mutual.

  6. #6
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    hiding out in treetops, shouting out rude names
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by markwoll View Post
    Well, I did say, 'most whites'...







    I keed, I keed !

  7. #7
    Member Firth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Severn, MD
    Posts
    3,180
    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    In jazz's infancy, it was reviled by most whites because it was considered "black music"
    It would be interesting to determine what came first the chicken or the egg. During prohibition the rich whites funded the Harlem speakeasys and great jazz. Were the elitists the people that encouraged the people to be racist through yellow journalism, even though they were racking in the dollars exploiting poor whites and blacks, and Hispanics. Harry Alsinger’s governmental department was hurting when prohibition was ended. Then he used marijuana to trash Hispanics and blacks. But the ultimate irony is that racist white women (suffragettes) got the vote, and then pushed for prohibition of alcohol which made huge sums for the bootleggers like Joe Kennedy. Then 4 years after alcohol prohibition was defeated, racism voted in marijuana law, with Congressional testimony that hispanics and blacks corrupted young white women. But it was the elite whites that did this, even though they have all ways gotten what they wanted with recreational drugs and jazz.
    One personís noise is anotherís signal.


  8. #8
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    3,880
    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    In jazz's infancy, it was reviled by most whites because it was considered "black music"
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    In the teens and twenties jazz was the musical equivalent of the coronavirus, a contagious pathogen to be eradicated. It pretty damn well has.
    Well, that's so evident/obvious that I'm not sure there is a need to write up new articles about this side of history, unless there are newly discovered elements never thought of before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    It would be interesting to determine what came first the chicken or the egg. During prohibition the rich whites funded the Harlem speakeasys and great jazz. Were the elitists the people that encouraged the people to be racist through yellow journalism, even though they were racking in the dollars exploiting poor whites and blacks, and Hispanics. Harry Alsingerís governmental department was hurting when prohibition was ended. Then he used marijuana to trash Hispanics and blacks. But the ultimate irony is that racist white women (suffragettes) got the vote, and then pushed for prohibition of alcohol which made huge sums for the bootleggers like Joe Kennedy. Then 4 years after alcohol prohibition was defeated, racism voted in marijuana law, with Congressional testimony that hispanics and blacks corrupted young white women. But it was the elite whites that did this, even though they have all ways gotten what they wanted with recreational drugs and jazz.
    However, I may miss something here:
    how were the suffragettes racist? Prohibition laws only made common sense to women, given that the violence (verbal or physical) alcohol abuse by men (mainly) was often directed at their wives, daughter and mothers, regardless of race. As or its unwanted side-effects and colateral damages, it's not like they knew their push was going to turn that awful bend/curve/twist. Remember that when women started politics, they were mostly naÔve, with little or no experiences.

    Also not sure how the marijuana ban was "racist". Yeah, sure establishment was generally racist by its conservative stance, but outlawing pot (and other substance abuse) were voted mainly in order to avoid the youth (from all walks of life, coloured or not) to fall in that "trap". Substance abuse keeps you away from the church, which wanted to remains at the centre of the village in order to keep social ,control over everyone (regardless of skin colour).
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  9. #9
    Member Firth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Severn, MD
    Posts
    3,180
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Well, that's so evident/obvious that I'm not sure there is a need to write up new articles about this side of history, unless there are newly discovered elements never thought of before.



    However, I may miss something here:
    how were the suffragettes racist? Prohibition laws only made common sense to women, given that the violence (verbal or physical) alcohol abuse by men (mainly) was often directed at their wives, daughter and mothers, regardless of race. As or its unwanted side-effects and colateral damages, it's not like they knew their push was going to turn that awful bend/curve/twist. Remember that when women started politics, they were mostly naÔve, with little or no experiences.

    Also not sure how the marijuana ban was "racist". Yeah, sure establishment was generally racist by its conservative stance, but outlawing pot (and other substance abuse) were voted mainly in order to avoid the youth (from all walks of life, coloured or not) to fall in that "trap". Substance abuse keeps you away from the church, which wanted to remains at the centre of the village in order to keep social ,control over everyone (regardless of skin colour).

    I don’t believe that you would state what you have without doing the research, and claim you don’t understand why these issues don’t need to be discussed. First off you describe marijuana if it’s an additive substance like alcohol and opiates. I don’t want to rehash what is known in real science now, and it appears it would not make a difference. The fact still remains that Racist testimony appealed to racism and brainwashed the American people and was amplified by Richard Nixon’s use of negative anti-cultural speech, and then the Reagans who misled a lot of the Country in the War on Drugs. Reagan was effective in making marijuana expensive and more difficult to come by, but at the same time caused the business to shift from South America to the more money lucrative Cocaine trade. Price of cocaine when down by a factor of three in the 80’s because of supply side economics, which had the opposite effect on pot. Pot was and still is a victim of a political war, with the Dems supporting legalization however tied to reparations, which the Republicans and Trump who are for State legalization but not federal pot bailout programs. Fortunately the Republicans did pass the 2018 Farm bill which permits the States to produce hemp at the State level, and effectively CBD.

    You seem to not want to admit that the actions of the suffragettes were shown on balance to be wrong with respect to alcohol. Not that alcohol is good or bad, but as long as freedom exists in the US prohibition of freedom will fail and not necessarily produce a more positive result. Government power to prohibit is often coupled with corruption, perhaps because absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    One personís noise is anotherís signal.


  10. #10
    Member Firth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Severn, MD
    Posts
    3,180
    One personís noise is anotherís signal.


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    ...Republicans and Trump who are for State legalization...
    They are not necessarily for legalization. They are for states' rights, which has an altogether different agenda behind it.
    Orange is the new stupid.

  12. #12
    Member Firth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Severn, MD
    Posts
    3,180
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    They are not necessarily for legalization. They are for states' rights, which has an altogether different agenda behind it.
    Whatever you wish to imagine. However, I expect what would pass the Senate would be a bill similar to the Hemp bill, allowing States to grow under license. Also, just taking it off of schedule 1, would be significant and I expect States which are allowed to grow it, will have to submit to regulations just like Hemp and alcohol. States can control alcohol beverages within their borders. Interstate transportation similar to hemp will be permitted. There is bipartisan support, but not for federal reparations. The political football status of it now may delay it until Big Pharma determines whatís legal, and it will be ridiculously expensive just like FDA approved CBD. Just allowing the banks to deal with money from transactions is huge.

    Iím not saying every Republican is for legalization, however it will not take many to support something other than the House bill which has a socialist agenda, and is not libertarian.
    One personís noise is anotherís signal.


  13. #13
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    3,880
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    I don’t believe that you would state what you have without doing the research, and claim you don’t understand why these issues don’t need to be discussed. First off you describe marijuana if it’s an additive substance like alcohol and opiates. I don’t want to rehash what is known in real science now, and it appears it would not make a difference. The fact still remains that Racist testimony appealed to racism and brainwashed the American people and was amplified by Richard Nixon’s use of negative anti-cultural speech, and then the Reagans who misled a lot of the Country in the War on Drugs. Reagan was effective in making marijuana expensive and more difficult to come by, but at the same time caused the business to shift from South America to the more money lucrative Cocaine trade. Price of cocaine when down by a factor of three in the 80’s because of supply side economics, which had the opposite effect on pot. Pot was and still is a victim of a political war, with the Dems supporting legalization however tied to reparations, which the Republicans and Trump who are for State legalization but not federal pot bailout programs. Fortunately the Republicans did pass the 2018 Farm bill which permits the States to produce hemp at the State level, and effectively CBD.

    You seem to not want to admit that the actions of the suffragettes were shown on balance to be wrong with respect to alcohol. Not that alcohol is good or bad, but as long as freedom exists in the US prohibition of freedom will fail and not necessarily produce a more positive result. Government power to prohibit is often coupled with corruption, perhaps because absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Actually, I didn't do any research at all on the subject - either on the prohibition itself or suffregette's call on it. FTM, I'm not even sure I read your post right. So I'm not going into details on something I won't master enough to have a debate/fight , but more like on a broader scope

    The hate of jazz was racist, no doubt about it, Aand the white establishment hated to see their sons & daughter frequent those cluns, because of the supposed sleaze & sins (which were probably real)

    However yesterday, I read your slant as a form of revisionism (not the kind of extermiation camp denials, of course) but re-reading the event of nearly a century ago with today's eyes, at the risk of somehow rewriting the original intent of the action.

    If I may try to draw a (shaky) parallel between that case and the way the extremist feminists of today are rereading the sexual revolution after the pill was created. According to some I've spoken to, it's almost as if the pill was invented to have women be able to have sex on demand the whole month/year to fit man's desires, and for the patriarchs have sex slaves.
    Just like this Staples guy's article (clearly stated as an opinion by the NYT site) about sufragette's betrayal of black women. It may even have been so at one point in time, but the author (doing a whole lot of mansplaining) is probably using "facts" (either real or deformed) to fit his own personal or cause-related agenda.

    In a way, it's quite dangerous of rewriting history without taking into account the context of the era, however fucked-up it was, back then.

    Hopefully, I managed to make it clear on my first intervention.
    Last edited by Trane; 1 Week Ago at 02:41 AM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  14. #14
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    The Planet Lovetron
    Posts
    6,799
    Jazz Was Hated by the Prohibitionists.

    Which was made up for by the Exhibitionists.
    "If you want to see the true nature of humanity, just look at the internet."

    http://www.discogs.com/user/moecurlythanu/collection

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •