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Thread: Discipline's - Unfolded Like Staircase

  1. #26
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    I hope that all the folks who want a high - res remaster understand that the most likely scenario for this album, considering when it was recorded, it that it was recorded on a A-DAT studio set up, which means that hi res from the original masters (assuming one could find a working A-DAT setup to copy from) would be 16 bit / 48k at BEST and very possibly only 16 bit / 44.1 hz, which is....the exact same res as a CD...
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  2. #27
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mon40 View Post
    I just listened to it again Steve maybe 4 is to low. But when I compare it to Push & Profit and their live shows its a let down I have to say. If 5 is average then its slightly under average.
    You can't compare the sound of a studio recording with the sound of 'their live shows'. Two completely different animals, AND, I would venture, that you are conflating part of the 'bad sound' to 'lack of physical excitement and proximity' of a live show.

    NO REMASTER can change that. No matter what.
    They weren't performing for an audience of excited, happy people. Different animal.
    Steve F.

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    This space for rent: Well established location. Perfect opportunity for an up and coming smart-ass to benefit from our years of provocation!

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    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  3. #28
    Well you know its prog not pop. So its not for everyone by definition.

    But man In Canto IV, when it highlights to absurdity of Limbo for people born before Jesus is born is chilling.

    And the barker,
    the soldier.
    the mother,
    and all the fallen heros

    We the prisoners of your faith.
    Forget me and let me cease to be.

    Here I am.

    Absolute goosebump moment for me.

    The guitar work solo and jam after it. Really one of the best things I ever heard in music. Period.
    Mark Monforti
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  4. #29
    Very true.
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  5. #30
    Well the reason it would cost so much is that it doesn't exist.
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  6. #31
    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I hope that all the folks who want a high - res remaster understand that the most likely scenario for this album, considering when it was recorded, it that it was recorded on a A-DAT studio set up, which means that hi res from the original masters (assuming one could find a working A-DAT setup to copy from) would be 16 bit / 48k at BEST and very possibly only 16 bit / 44.1 hz, which is....the exact same res as a CD...
    Perfectly true. Then put this same (lo-res, 16bits/44.1 KHz DIGITAL) file on a vinyl, add lo-cut/ HF eq. limiting and other analog processing necessary for disc cutting and everyone will find the ANALOG disc sound quality fantastic and happy to pay a much higher price for it. Go figure...

  7. #32
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    ^ ^ ^ ^

    I completely take your point, but I would argue that 16/44.1 is hardly 'lo-res' or 'lo-fi'.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    This space for rent: Well established location. Perfect opportunity for an up and coming smart-ass to benefit from our years of provocation!

    "You run a great label, but sometimes you go out of your way to be a jerk." - Jed Levin

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  8. #33
    Although I prefer the live recordings/mixes, I never felt the studio mix was 'bad'...except the piano intro to Before the Storm - that, I felt, sounded muffled or just not cleanly mic'd. They did not have a lot of money for recording/mixing this album. Matthew would probably be happy to have it re-mixed if you gave him a proper budget and final say on the results. --Peter

  9. #34
    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    ^ ^ ^ ^

    I completely take your point, but I would argue that 16/44.1 is hardly 'lo-res' or 'lo-fi'.
    I know and fully agree, but with 24bits/192 KHz audio formats now available the "old" 16Bit/44 KHz standard has been downgraded and most "audiophiles" call it "low-resolution" (which obviously it isn't). To what extent the difference is actually audible to the human ear is another debate I wouldn't start here. As far as I am concerned, Discipline's Unfold... has given me (and still gives me) a lot of sonic pleasure AS IS (call it poorly recorded, lo-res digital, or whatever) and the MUSIC (remember it's all about music first ?) it contains is fantastic. Definitely one of my favorite prog records of the 90ies.
    Last edited by Mr.Krautman; 02-17-2020 at 01:20 PM.

  10. #35
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proglodite View Post
    Matthew would probably be happy to have it re-mixed if you gave him a proper budget and final say on the results
    well, that's the end of THAT!
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
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    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    This space for rent: Well established location. Perfect opportunity for an up and coming smart-ass to benefit from our years of provocation!

    "You run a great label, but sometimes you go out of your way to be a jerk." - Jed Levin

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  11. #36
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I hope that all the folks who want a high - res remaster understand that the most likely scenario for this album, considering when it was recorded, it that it was recorded on a A-DAT studio set up, which means that hi res from the original masters (assuming one could find a working A-DAT setup to copy from) would be 16 bit / 48k at BEST and very possibly only 16 bit / 44.1 hz, which is....the exact same res as a CD...
    Even 16/44.1 multi-tracks can sound good if mixed and mastered to higher res, say 24/88.2. It would be like the same collage pasted to 2 different size pieces of cardboard. On the smaller cardboard, the cutouts would overlap and crowd each other out. On the larger cardboard, the cutouts would have more room to spread out. Mixing to higher res would be the larger piece of cardboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    Perfectly true. Then put this same (lo-res, 16bits/44.1 KHz DIGITAL) file on a vinyl, add lo-cut/ HF eq. limiting and other analog processing necessary for disc cutting and everyone will find the ANALOG disc sound quality fantastic and happy to pay a much higher price for it. Go figure...
    My collage analogy would apply equally to mixing and mastering to analog. Most digital recordings from the 80s were recorded in straight 16/44.1, but still sounded great mixed and mastered to analog for vinyl records. There were some notable exceptions. Kansas Power and Yes Big Generator sound very much like the CD, with the added bonus of surface noise. Deep Purple Perfect Strangers and Uriah Heep Abominog sound only marginally better than the CD. But all 4 were the exception, not the rule.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  12. #37
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Even 16/44.1 multi-tracks can sound good if mixed and mastered to higher res, say 24/88.2. It would be like the same collage pasted to 2 different size pieces of cardboard. On the smaller cardboard, the cutouts would overlap and crowd each other out. On the larger cardboard, the cutouts would have more room to spread out. Mixing to higher res would be the larger piece of cardboard.
    My point is:

    1. It still wouldn't be 'hi-res' - it would be 'upsampling' or whatever weasel wording you wish to choose.
    2. IMO, remxing the thing to 16/44.1 could accomplish basically the same things that 'upsampling' and then remixing might accomplish. YMMV.
    3. There's no budget for this. How many copies of this does anyone think it would sell in 2020?
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    This space for rent: Well established location. Perfect opportunity for an up and coming smart-ass to benefit from our years of provocation!

    "You run a great label, but sometimes you go out of your way to be a jerk." - Jed Levin

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    I know and fully agree, but with 24bits/192 KHz audio formats now available the "old" 16Bit/44 KHz standard has been downgraded and most "audiophiles" call it "low-resolution" (which obviously it isn't). To what extent the difference is actually audible to the human ear is another debate I wouldn't start here. As far as I am concerned, Discipline's Unfold... has given me (and still gives me) a lot of sonic pleasure AS IS (call it poorly recorded, lo-res digital, or whatever) and the MUSIC (remember it's all about music first ?) it contains is fantastic.
    Dang, dude. That's quite the ax you have to grind there.

  14. #39
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    I like to see them live.

  15. #40
    I am planing a private Chicago gig in the fall if that is helpful.
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  16. #41
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    Mark, two please!

  17. #42
    NEARfest Officer Emeritus Nearfest2's Avatar
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    I've always thought this was a great album with a muddy mix. It's sadly one reason I don't listen to it that much anymore. A remix simply to improve on the muddiness would be most welcome.

    My thought has always been that Brett Kull would be the perfect guy to produce a new mix. The echolyn guys have been good friends with the Discipline guys for 25 years. I'm sure if Matthew and Brett spoke, they would be able to work something out.
    Chad

  18. #43
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    ^ That is an excellent idea.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    1. It still wouldn't be 'hi-res' - it would be 'upsampling' or whatever weasel wording you wish to choose.
    Agreed. And I think 16/44.1 is just fine for this. CD quality is still very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    2. IMO, remxing the thing to 16/44.1 could accomplish basically the same things that 'upsampling' and then remixing might accomplish. YMMV.
    I don't think that upsampling is the necessarily the fix here. The "mud" in the mix could be the result of a lot of things in the studio or even in mastering. Upsampling or remixing at 24/96 would just produce higher resolution mud. A copy of the source recording would have to be cleaned up using equalization and other studio techniques that I don't have first-hand knowledge of. If Rush can take the mud out of "Vapor Trails," I'm sure something can be done for "Unfolded Like Staircase" too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    3. There's no budget for this. How many copies of this does anyone think it would sell in 2020?
    Maybe. It also may not cost that much. I don't know. Crowd funding would be a very viable solution for a project like this. Physical product doesn't even have to be produced.
    Chad

  20. #45
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nearfest2 View Post
    Crowd funding would be a very viable solution for a project like this. Physical product doesn't even have to be produced.
    Crowd funding would work if enough people want it to dig into their pockets (heck, crowdfunding will work if only ONE person digs DEEPLY into his / her pocket).

    Physical product is not the expense one way or the other. The remix is the expense.
    Steve F.

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    This space for rent: Well established location. Perfect opportunity for an up and coming smart-ass to benefit from our years of provocation!

    "You run a great label, but sometimes you go out of your way to be a jerk." - Jed Levin

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  21. #46
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    My point is:

    1. It still wouldn't be 'hi-res' - it would be 'upsampling' or whatever weasel wording you wish to choose.
    2. IMO, remxing the thing to 16/44.1 could accomplish basically the same things that 'upsampling' and then remixing might accomplish. YMMV.
    3. There's no budget for this. How many copies of this does anyone think it would sell in 2020?
    The only upsampling necessary would be to the individual instrument tracks, essentially adding a lot of trailing zeros. However, when all the individual tracks are mixed together, very few if any of those trailing zeros will translate to the final product.

    Conversely, mixing and mastering to 16/44.1 can sound downright awful. The Enid did this when they reissued In The Region of Summer Stars in 1984. They took the 8 track analog tape, remixed and remastered it to 16/44.1. By far, one of the worst sounding vinyl records I've ever heard.

    I'm guessing Kansas Power and Yes Big Generator were also vinyl records cut from a 16/44.1 digital master. That would explain why they don't sound all that great.

    EDIT: The vast, vast majority of CDs have been produced from higher res masters, and simply downsampled to 16/44.1 for CD production. That's been true for decades, even among bedroom hobbyists. You show me a CD that was mixed and mastered to 16/44.1, and I'll show you a CD that frankly sounds like s***.
    Last edited by progmatist; 02-18-2020 at 01:45 PM.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Physical product is not the expense one way or the other. The remix is the expense.
    True. I was just pointing out that it's not a needed expense to incur at all these days.
    Chad

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post

    EDIT: The vast, vast majority of CDs have been produced from higher res masters, and simply downsampled to 16/44.1 for CD production. That's been true for decades, even among bedroom hobbyists. You show me a CD that was mixed and mastered to 16/44.1, and I'll show you a CD that frankly sounds like s***.
    If you are talking about albums that were recorded analogue and then mastered for CD, they were transferred to the highest bit rate available at that time and then after mastering, dithered down to 16/44.1 for CD production. 16 bit digital recorders were the norm for many years. In fact early digital recorders were 14 bit. ADAT was originally a 16 bit format, then revised to 20 and then finally I believe 24 bit. Digital recordings were tracked, mixed and mastered at the native rate and then dithered down to 16/44.1 in the mastering stage.

    It was quite the norm to record and mix at 16/48 for years, then sample rate convert to 44.1 from 48khz. All those ECM recordings from the 80s and 90s were more than likely 16 bit. If you think they sound like shit...well I think you hear different than most.

  24. #49
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    ^^ And yet, ECM saw fit to remaster many of those old recordings........................
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  25. #50
    Member LASERCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    ^^ And yet, ECM saw fit to remaster many of those old recordings........................
    You aren't being clear or perhaps you are confused.

    Please give examples.

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