Three Members of Genesis Went to a Knicks Game — Speculations Abound

[Firth]

I don't see or hear how they were mimicking Peter Gabriel at all, seeing as their music was only simplistic in comparison to their earlier "proggy" stuff and not at all like what PG was doing.

It can be seen that several “Prog” bands were creating by 1980, such as “Yes” drama. Or like Joni Mitchell experimenting with synths with “Dog Eat Dog”. It’s just that the Genesis approach was weak IMO relative to the rest of pop artists in the 80s. Phil’s comments about the noise gating and Mama’s vocals ripped from a rapper pretty much says it all. PG influenced PC and co. But his pop was far more innovative and eclectic.

[Progatron]

PG let Hackett show off

Lamb was PG’s record

Oh, was PG in charge of the whole band? Weird how I never knew that after thirty-something years of following this band, and every interview response from all five members on the subject entirely contrary to what you said, but okay.

The band was sick of PG’s authoritarian approach. After the breakup, PG tried to get Happy the Man as his band. HTM did not want the artistic reign that would have happened.

Fascinating how you have this first-hand knowledge. Again, I guess all those quotes about how it was PG who decided against working with the HTM guys after a short time are false.

Collins influence started to contaminate on W&W

Oh, which song? The romantic, wistful piece he wrote with Hackett? The quirky fusion piece? The complex prog-rock instrumental he helped arrange? Just curious where you feel the Collins 'contamination' began on that album.

and he got involved with PG’s third album

Two and a half years after W&W was recorded, but interesting jump.

in my mind

You got that part right, for sure.

Simple sells, like Solsbury Hill.

Yeah, those songs written in odd time signatures are always the biggest hits.

[aith01]

It can be seen that several “Prog” bands were creating by 1980, such as “Yes” drama.

Duke also came out in 1980, which was much still in the vein of their symphonic prog style before.

Or like Joni Mitchell experimenting with synths with “Dog Eat Dog”.

"Experimenting with synths" is not the same thing. Apples and oranges.

Phil’s comments about the noise gating and Mama’s vocals ripped from a rapper pretty much says it all.

Actually no, it doesn't. Yeah, he was inspired by a Grandmaster Flash song for the "laugh" on "Mama". But you keep saying Phil Collins "ripped off" other people, and I think you don't see the distinction between homage/inspiration and "ripping off".

PG influenced PC and co. But his pop was far more innovative and eclectic.

Again, apples and oranges. Peter Gabriel began exploring world music and making more sparsely arranged records with riff-based and rhythm-heavy songs. Genesis (and especially Tony Banks) were making more densely arranged songs with some longer compositions emphasizing key changes, and elaborate harmonic structures. Even more impressive to me is that a lot of those songs came from jamming together as a trio.

To put it bluntly, Tony has a grasp of music theory that Peter simply does not; Pete's strengths lie elsewhere, IMO. And Genesis were never "fully pop" either. Nobody else in the 80s sounded like them -- at least nobody who was getting massive radio hits.

[M Sary]

After watching this again I now conclude that Peter Gabriel ruined Genesis. It goes like this:

1. Selling England By the Pound was the first Genesis album which really showed off the symphonic Prog instrumental excellence of the band. In a way, PG let Hackett show off, and Collins was much more present in vocals.

2. Lamb was PG’s record and the instrumental goodness was there, but not like 1. The band was sick of PG’s authoritarian approach. After the breakup, PG tried to get Happy the Man as his band. HTM did not want the artistic reign that would have happened.

3. Trick was an instrumental masterpiece as the band was freed from the reigns of PG.

4. Collins influence started to contaminate on W&W, and he got involved with PG’s third album and PG takes the credit for noise gated drum sound with Collins. PG used it but it didn’t dominate like it did on PC records. In addition PC loved synth drums. PG influenced PC, which was the death of Genesis

Not true about Happy The Man. Multiple interviews state [also heard it directly from Mike Beck] that the only reason they didn't sign on was that they had a pending record deal for themselves at the time. They offered to try to do both things, but Gabriel wanted a full-time band.

[aith01]

Not true about Happy The Man. Multiple interviews state [also heard it directly from Mike Beck] that the only reason they didn't sign on was that they had a pending record deal for themselves at the time. They offered to try to do both things, but Gabriel wanted a full-time band.

Thank you for weighing in. I had forgotten that Peter had wanted Happy The Man to be his backing band, as well as the reasons why it didn’t pan out ultimately. Thanks for setting the record straight.

[Firth]

Not true about Happy The Man. Multiple interviews state [also heard it directly from Mike Beck] that the only reason they didn't sign on was that they had a pending record deal for themselves at the time. They offered to try to do both things, but Gabriel wanted a full-time band.

Not disagreeing that HTM having a record contract was motivator, but multiple interviews and a one on one I had with Stan Whitaker at one of his solo shows, suggested that HTM had significant ego and signing with Gabe would have been limiting relative to what they thought they were going to do. The contract issue was minor and I think that signing with Gabriel would have been easy, albeit giving up on an Arista contract at that time may have seemed a mistake.

[aith01]

Yeah, because Genesis was so limited by Peter Gabriel while he was in the band.

Sheesh... The revisionist history going on here is just puzzling.

[Firth]

Yeah, because Genesis was so limited by Peter Gabriel while he was in the band.

Sheesh... The revisionist history going on here is just puzzling.

No, just an observation that both PC and PG did have a limiting effect on the instrumental output from the band, focusing on money and pop.

[calyx]

No, just an observation that both PC and PG did have a limiting effect on the instrumental output from the band, focusing on money and pop.

Of course, Mike Rutherford had absolutely no responsibility in that... He's probably under strict orders (& surveilance) from both PC and PG not to add any of those 10-minute instrumental sections he dreams of adding to his Mike + The Mechanics songs.

[Firth]

Of course, Mike Rutherford had absolutely no responsibility in that... He's probably under strict orders (& surveilance) from both PC and PG not to add any of those 10-minute instrumental sections he dreams of adding to his Mike + The Mechanics songs.

Yes, Mike did write their first big hit, “Follow You Follow Me”, according to him.

[aith01]

No, just an observation that both PC and PG did have a limiting effect on the instrumental output from the band, focusing on money and pop.

Examples, please.

[mozo-pg]

This is a "speculating" thread, right?

[moecurlythanu]

This is a "speculating" thread, right?

I believe the official term is "throw it at the wall and see what sticks."

[bill g]

The only thing I know is Tony's comments about Peter singing over everything, parts that he envisioned as instrumental. Mainly Tony is the perpetrator of long instrumental passages, but Tony, Mike and Phil wrote Cinema Show, so... they weren't completely averse to instrumentals. Peter pushed them toward vocal stuff obviously, writing 'Willow Farm' and 'Counting Out Time', but I don't think was averse to instrumental sections as it allowed him to change costumes

[aith01]

I believe the official term is "throw it at the wall and see what sticks."

I didn't realize that's what was happening here. My bad.

[Firth]

Examples, please.

The music speaks for itself.

[bill g]

I always wanted Genesis to go more instrumental, and the instrumental passages were my favorite parts, but instead, starting with 'And Then There Were Three' they went more vocal. I still liked their albums mostly, but they went a different direction than I wanted. I think Tony was compromising a lot at that point. And losing Steve didn't help. Oh well, water under the bridge now. And Tony can focus on pure instrumental music now without compromise.

[aith01]

The music speaks for itself.

Over the years I’ve listened to every single Genesis album all the way through, several times. I don’t agree. And if you look at Tony and Mike’s solo albums around that time they began changing styles too. I don’t believe they were being influenced by Peter Gabriel, I’m sorry, but your argument isn’t convincing to me.

[Halmyre]

No, just an observation that both PC and PG did have a limiting effect on the instrumental output from the band, focusing on money and pop.

Peter Gabriel "This double-sided concept album about a New York punk who shags snake-women and has his amputated dick stolen by a raven is going to make us a shed-load of money"

Tony, Mike, Phil and Steve: "Uh-huh..."

[Firth]

Over the years I’ve listened to every single Genesis album all the way through, several times. I don’t agree. And if you look at Tony and Mike’s solo albums around that time they began changing styles too. I don’t believe they were being influenced by Peter Gabriel, I’m sorry, but your argument isn’t convincing to me.

I’m not arguing, just making an observation. IMO nothing Gabriel or Collins did after 1980 is innovative or progressive. It was an appeal to the lowest common denominator. Eventually all members of the band except Hackett bowed to the industry.

[mozo-pg]

I’m not arguing, just making an observation. IMO nothing Gabriel or Collins did after 1980 is innovative or progressive. It was an appeal to the lowest common denominator. Eventually all members of the band except Hackett bowed to the industry.

Did you notice people are disagreeing with 99 percent of your "speculations". Just to cite a few examples, Peter Gabriel IV is highly innovative, as is Passion. I totally disagree with your statement. Appeal to the lowest common denominator - not.

[aith01]

PG influenced PC and co. But his pop was far more innovative and eclectic.

IMO nothing Gabriel or Collins did after 1980 is innovative or progressive. It was an appeal to the lowest common denominator.

This is what's confusing to me.

Eventually all members of the band except Hackett bowed to the industry.

If you don't think Hackett did the exact same thing in the 80s and 90s ("bowing to the industry"), you've got some serious blinders on IMO. Did you forget about GTR?

He didn't return to "prog" until pretty recently (around 2000 or so I guess). The idea that Hackett has been the sole bannerman of progressive rock from the Genesis camp through the ages isn't backed up by any facts. Having said that, he has been doing a good job of bringing attention to that music in recent years and I'm glad he's doing the Genesis Revisited stuff. It seems to be working out well for him too.

[JJ88]

^GTR was a blip for Hackett and one he didn't particularly enjoy. The 90s saw him in more or less 'cottage industry' territory, outside of the big-time music industry. And that was the period when he released the first Genesis Revisited album. That made little commercial impact but then again, he didn't tour it, unlike the second one. (The Tokyo Tapes covered a tiny run of shows in Japan, certainly not a 'tour'.) It was more of a studio project.

Not that I agree with anything Firth wrote, though.

[Tangento]

Did you notice people are disagreeing with 99 percent of your "speculations". Just to cite a few examples, Peter Gabriel IV is highly innovative, as is Passion. I totally disagree with your statement. Appeal to the lowest common denominator - not.

::cough::BIRDY OST::cough::1982::cough::

[aith01]

^GTR was a blip for Hackett and one he didn't particularly enjoy. The 90s saw him in more or less 'cottage industry' territory. And that was when he released the first Genesis Revisited album. That one made less commercial impact but then again, he didn't tour it, unlike the second one. (The Tokyo Tapes covered a tiny run of shows in Japan, certainly not a 'tour'.) It was more of a studio project.

You're right, GTR was something of an anomaly for him. There was stuff like Cured and Highly Strung, which were more poppy and "mainstream" in the 80s style -- not that that's a bad thing, IMO. I really like both of those records.

I lost track of his work in the 90s, but now that you mention it, "cottage industry" is exactly the right description for what he was doing then.

But I do get tired of the recurring narrative that Hackett "never compromised" while the rest of Genesis were "selling out" or something. Hackett tried to make a living at it too, and my gosh, I don't begrudge any musician for wanting to make money doing it.