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Thread: Townsend on Moon and Entwistle: 'Thank god they're gone...'

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    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Townsend on Moon and Entwistle: 'Thank god they're gone...'

    https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/th...d-theyre-gone/

    I'm not a fan of Blabbermouth and their sensational click bait. But... wow.
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    Cringeworthy for sure. But look at it like this. They have a new album coming out. Townshend knows how to play the media game so he comes out with stuff like this. He's been doing it for decades. Remember him saying The Beatles' backing tracks were 'flippin lousy' and on another occasion, lumping them in with Hermans' Hermits. And then there's his many 'too much information' comments about his 'fantasies' about Mick Jagger!

  3. #3
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    I definitely miss Keith Moon and John Entlwhistle. I'm not a drumming or even music expert but Moon's playing on Quadrophenia in incendiary. I love it - John's bass playing is distintive, like Chris, very present and powerful.
    What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it brings forth a sound.

  4. #4
    Townshend's been talking out of his ass since day one. There's a couple bits in The Kids Are Alright, from interviews he did in the 60's, where he insults his audience and The Beatles.

  5. #5
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Townshend's been talking out of his ass since day one. There's a couple bits in The Kids Are Alright, from interviews he did in the 60's, where he insults his audience and The Beatles.
    I tend to agree...

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    I definitely miss Keith Moon and John Entlwhistle. I'm not a drumming or even music expert but Moon's playing on Quadrophenia in incendiary. I love it - John's bass playing is distintive, like Chris, very present and powerful.
    Interesting.. I fully agree.. I remember making the same comment after listening to this album years ago on a long car trip where I gave the music my full attention.. I commented in a "Who" thread on a "different" website than Progears and people came out of the woodwork saying what a lousy drummer Keith was.. and how he was the weak link in the band etc. I love his work on Who's Next as well..

  7. #7
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    Isn't the guy a registered sex offender in Britain for his "research" into child porn? I don't see how the dude ever gets a pass on that such that his comments receive any sort of merit. Go away, won't you?

  8. #8
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happytheman View Post
    Interesting.. I fully agree.. I remember making the same comment after listening to this album years ago on a long car trip where I gave the music my full attention.. I commented in a "Who" thread on a "different" website than Progears and people came out of the woodwork saying what a lousy drummer Keith was.. and how he was the weak link in the band etc. I love his work on Who's Next as well..
    When Pete makes any music as a solo artist that makes me believe that he was held back or limited by the presence of Moon and Entwistle it will be the first time.

    He trashed nearly all of his contemporaries back in the '60s. It was the birth of punk!

  9. #9
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    My interview with Rolling Stone. Headline: 'Pete Townshend says “thanks God” Moon, John Entwistle are dead; they were fucking difficult to play with”’.

    This was said as part of an interview in response to a series of questions about Who history, the early days and how it is today.

    PETE! FOR FUCK’S SAKE PUT A LID ON IT!

    No one can ever know how much I miss Keith and John, as people, as friends and as musicians. The alchemy we used to share in the studio is missing from the new album, and it always feels wrong to try to summon it up without them, but I suppose we will always be tempted to try. To this day I am angry at Keith and John for dying. Sometimes it shows. It’s selfish, but it’s how I feel.

    But I am sincerely grateful to have had these second and third incarnations as a member of what we still dare to call The Who – once after Keith passed, then again after John passed. I do thank God for this, but I was being ironic in my own English way by suggesting it is something I am glad about. I can be grateful to be free as a player and writer, but sad about losing old friends. It does feel ironic, and it also makes me angry. Towards the end of my mother Betty’s life she drove me barmy, and there was a huge sense of relief when she finally passed, but I miss her very much. Love has so many facets.

    I understand that a lot of long-time Who fans will be hurt by the way it comes across as a headline. I only hope that they know me well enough that I tell the truth as much as I can, but I also tell both sides and the upside is missing in the headlines.

    Writing for Roger, and performing with him, is easier than the early days with the old four-piece band. Many of you will have heard me say that working with Roger these days can be tricky, and challenging, but that ultimately I find it “easy”. John and Keith were so eccentric and individual as musicians. They literally did take up so much musical and sonic space. As a guitar player I never learned to shred because there was never any space for it. On Live At Leeds and bootlegs from that time you can often hear me stop the music to noodle around, partly so I could think!

    The upside with Keith and John was that on tour and in the studio we had so much fun. Playing with them was hard, but both Roger and I spent a lot of time doubled up in joy and laughter even though we could have benefitted from a quieter life sometimes. It was a riot.

    To those family members of Keith and John, especially Chris Entwistle and Mandy Moon, I apologise for the headlines – and for carelessly providing the words that were used – but in the past three months I have done so many interviews I am losing focus and patience. I forgive myself. I hope they can forgive me too. I loved their dads and still do.

    Roger lost his rag at a press conference at Wembley about Brexit. I found it worrying, but I understood. We may be rock stars but we are also human. Roger and I have not changed very much over the years, but we do love and like each other these days. It’s really poignantly painful to imagine how things would have turned out had John and Keith had also been allowed to become older, kinder and wiser. The Who might have grown musically, or possibly just gone around in circles, but I assure you we would have deepened our love for each other as human beings and colleagues.

    As musicians? Who knows?

    -Pete, today....

  10. #10
    Occipital Provocatee Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    I don't think that's what prevented him from learning to shred.
    Just sitting at home rocking back and forth and jealously caressing my invisible collection of theoretical assets.

  11. #11
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    I don't know if hinting that he's "kinder and wiser" with age necessarily rings true.
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    Maybe Pete’s got it backwards. Perhaps he is the one hard to work with. I for one find it hard to imagine The Who without John. He was a monster on bass and essential to their sound


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    When Pete does shit like this, I fondly remember that one time Roger hit Pete so hard his feet actually left the floor. The headlines are taken out of context a bit but he's notorious for this shit. Keith Richards does some complaining about peers when he's got a new release to promote but it's more tongue in cheek. And he's always pissing out of the tent (except for when he's whining about how Mick doesn't understand him).
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Fracktured View Post
    Maybe Pete’s got it backwards. Perhaps he is the one hard to work with. I for one find it hard to imagine The Who without John. He was a monster on bass and essential to their sound
    The problem I've had with every performance I've heard since 2003 is, you can't hear the damn bass. I guess they do that out of respect to Thunderfingers, deliberately undermix the bass, but dammit, that's such a key part of the band's sound, from My Generation straight up through It's Hard! Mixing down the bass in this band is mixing down the drums! It just doesn't sound like The Who anymore. And thing was, when I saw them on that 2003, tour, last time I saw them, every once in awhile, the video screen would show a shot of Pino Palladino, and you could see he was playing the shit, and I know he's probably the right shit too. But the only time you cuold hear him, really, was during the My Generation solo, and even then he had this tone that sounded more liek a conventional bass, almost like a jazz bassist.
    When Pete does shit like this, I fondly remember that one time Roger hit Pete so hard his feet actually left the floor.
    From what I understand, fisticuffs was a common occurrence when the four were in the same room together. It's been said the last place you wanted to be, after a Who gig, was in their dressing room, because they were busy tearing each other apart, either figuratively or literally.

    Regarding Roger knocking Pete on his ass: the story Daltrey told one time was the two of them got into it, over whatever, I forget, and they were about to get to blows, when John and Keith stepped between. Roger started to calm down, but then Pete lunged for him, and that's when Roger thumped him. I believe this happened during the Quadrophenia rehearsals.

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    Pete is no dummy and he knows how to market the band. Making controversial statements like this is really brilliant. Quotes from this article are popping up all over Facebook and social media. All of a sudden, the fact that there is a new Who album coming out is all over the place, probably seen by people who otherwise would have no idea. I suspect Pete and Roger know exactly what they are doing.

  16. #16
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    Regarding Roger knocking Pete on his ass: the story Daltrey told one time was the two of them got into it, over whatever, I forget, and they were about to get to blows, when John and Keith stepped between. Roger started to calm down, but then Pete lunged for him, and that's when Roger thumped him. I believe this happened during the Quadrophenia rehearsals.
    Check out the book What You Want is in The Limo. There's a detailed account of it. It was indeed during the Quadrophenia rehearsals but it was an army of roadies holding Roger back (they knew who the most dangerous one was). Pete was smashed and trash-talking Roger. Roger got one arm free and got in a solid uppercut.

    I believe Entwistle used to complain about getting mixed down on the records. At least on live shows he had a bigger presence.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    Check out the book What You Want is in The Limo. There's a detailed account of it. It was indeed during the Quadrophenia rehearsals but it was an army of roadies holding Roger back (they knew who the most dangerous one was). Pete was smashed and trash-talking Roger. Roger got one arm free and got in a solid uppercut.
    Yeah, Roger was from a particularly rough and tumble working class neighborhood in London, where you basically learn how to "finish whatever needs finishing". Townshend and Entwistle were more middle class, I think. Anyway, there was one documentary where they showed a clip of Daltrey talking about it, where he says something to the effect that he was starting to calm down, when Pete suddenly lunged at him, as if Pete was gonna take a swing, and that was when Roger socked him. I suppose the exact details are unimportant. The thing was, there was a lot of that sort of thing in that band. Maybe they weren't cold cocking each other all the time, but I get the feeling there was always the threat that it could boil over into something.

    BTW, another story I remember hearing about Roger was that during a debate about the mix during the Who Are You sessions, he ended up calling the engineer out into the corridor and head butted him.
    I believe Entwistle used to complain about getting mixed down on the records. At least on live shows he had a bigger presence.
    I remember the interview he did in Guitar Player in 1989, where he talked about that. He said that when they were mixing stuff, they'd play a song once, then he'd ask to hear it again, so while the tape was rewinding and no one was looking, he nudge the fader on the bass channel up. I guess he was hoping that no one would notice that the bass was now a little louder and that would end up being how it go onto the record. I dunno if he actually succeeded on that front, but he said when they got up to Who Are You, that was around the time automated mixing desks were introduced. He said he'd try that same trick, he'd push the fader up, then the engineer would hit whichever button the console, and he'd watch the fader move, on it's own, back to it's original place before the second playback would happen. I guess the first time it happened, he was a bit stunned.

    Then he talked about Who's Last, the live album that came out from the 82 tour. He said that on the test pressing, the bass was way too loud on the first few songs, but was fine on the rest of the record. He said even he thought the bass was too loud. He said he told his manager that if they do a remix, and he's not there, they're gonna overcompensate and bury the bass. And according to him, that's exactly what happened. He said he listened to side one and then threw it in the trash, that they'd come out with their worst sounding live album ever. Wait, how many live albums had they done up to that point? I thought for a long time, it was just Live At Leeds and Who's Last.

    Anyway, there are certain records where his bass is loud and clear. Say what you want about It's Hard, but you can most definitely hear the thunder coming from the fingers on most of the songs on that album. Same thing on The Who By Numbers, as well as some of the songs on Face Dances.

    But yeah, there's certain things where you weren't always able to tell what he was playing. I remember the first time I saw the "Ox cam" version of Won't Get Fooled Again on the Kids Are Alright DVD, the one where they solo his bass channel through the entire song, and I just thought, "Wait, was that always there?! And I just never noticed because you had the organ, Pete, and Keith on top of it?!"

    The funny thing about that was, Jeff Stein said he asked John to take charge of working on the music on The Kids Are Alright, he figured that since the others were always talking over him when they'd group interviews, he figured maybe John would just crank his bass up on most of the songs and blow every one else away.

    "I'm not quiet/Everyone else is too loud"

  18. #18
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    If he was so unhappy with Moon & Ox, why didn't he just make another band? (greed)

    If Moon & Ox hadn't been there, The Who had never been as big & important as they were, but (besides Tommy) just a brit R&B/Blues band like so many others.

    Townshend could have said 'we were a fantastic band, and I am happy for all the great records we did, although we had some tough times too'.

  19. #19
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Townshend and Entwistle were more middle class, I think.
    Bear in mind that "middle class" means something far different in Britain than it does in the USA. Britain still has aristocracy, which comprises it's Upper Class. We do not. Much (many? most? all?) of the American Upper Class would fall into Britain's Middle Class.

    I don't know Entwistle or Townshends' family histories, so they may well have been Middle Class, (like the Genesis core,) but...

    Paging Ian for the full rundown.
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  20. #20
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    PETE! FOR FUCK’S SAKE PUT A LID ON IT!
    this

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    If he was so unhappy with Moon & Ox, why didn't he just make another band? (greed)

    If Moon & Ox hadn't been there, The Who had never been as big & important as they were
    No Ent and Loon, no Who
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  21. #21
    Once Moon died, The Who went with him. I can honestly say I don't really care for Who albums as a whole after Moon. They should've taken a page from Zeppelin after Bonzo died and stop making albums under the Who logo. As far as Entwistle, there are relatively few rock bassists who contributed memorable bass lines to the band's repertoire. Entwistle offered a boat load of such classic takes (including a few great songs of his own). The character and makeup of a band in total matters, where each member is integral. The Who is a case in point.
    "And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision."

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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    "middle class" means something far different in Britain than it does in the USA. Britain still has aristocracy, which comprises it's Upper Class. We do not. Much (many? most? all?) of the American Upper Class would fall into Britain's Middle Class.
    Yes and no. British aristocracy makes out the primary upper class in accordance with a traditional peerage system, with the so-called landed gentry (as opposed to the actual nobility) dominant in numbers. Thus it's still wealth which decides class adherence, as nobility proper isn't even regarded as a social class but somewhat 'above' that spectrum altogether. As such, chances are good that American magnates of wealth and property and influence would still find themselves hopelessly upper class if they were British.

    Of course, Weber (in extension of Dürkheim) introduced a view on three distinctions to middle class - as opposed to the previous view that all three main classes simply had two distinctions. In (western) European terms, you'd rarely rise above upper middle class if you're a self-made millionaire, for instance. If you're reasonably successful but stemming from blue-collar origins, like my father, you're middle middle class and if you're a mere academic or a teacher or whatever (such as myself) you're destined for eternal lower class adherence.

    See? I'm ot even a true proletarian.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Yes and no. British aristocracy makes out the primary upper class in accordance with a traditional peerage system, with the so-called landed gentry (as opposed to the actual nobility) dominant in numbers. Thus it's still wealth which decides class adherence, as nobility proper isn't even regarded as a social class but somewhat 'above' that spectrum altogether. As such, chances are good that American magnates of wealth and property and influence would still find themselves hopelessly upper class if they were British.

    Of course, Weber (in extension of Dürkheim) introduced a view on three distinctions to middle class - as opposed to the previous view that all three main classes simply had two distinctions. In (western) European terms, you'd rarely rise above upper middle class if you're a self-made millionaire, for instance. If you're reasonably successful but stemming from blue-collar origins, like my father, you're middle middle class and if you're a mere academic or a teacher or whatever (such as myself) you're destined for eternal lower class adherence.

    See? I'm ot even a true proletarian.
    Your father would of course be looked down on as "he's in trade", irrespective of his wealth and sophistication. Having to do work of any description was absolutely infra dig. I think it was physicist Stephen Hawking who said that it was more acceptable at Oxbridge to lie back and get a lesser degree than to study hard and get a first.


  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    Your father would of course be looked down on as "he's in trade", irrespective of his wealth and sophistication. […] it was more acceptable at Oxbridge to lie back and get a lesser degree than to study hard and get a first.
    Both true.

    While I grew up in a middle middle-class household (to which my father had done the 'klassereise' - a specific turn of social mobility in which you consciously break with your own social origin), I personally dropped to lower middle-class not due to my lengthy education or firm academic results, but because of my standard of income and living. However, even my father at his most successful when he was a business man was not 'accepted' within the upper levels of his newfound adherence; you were supposed to "own" your place of belonging, not to somehow earn or make it. And of course, a harsh blue-collar upbringing (his mother/my grannie worked at the Bergen reperbanen, making rope) sets out for certain traces of mentality that never leave you, reflected in the way you talk and think. It keeps haunting him now that he's nearing the end of things.

    As for the Oxbridge maxim, there's this great description of a gentleman as defined by his inky fingers; tainted by incessant reading of broadsheets and shunning the risk of hardened skin or gaunt to the handpalms from manual labour. I believe it was Anthony Blunt, the infamously deceitful aristocratic art historian who spent his early years as a covert spy for the NKVD/KGB, who at one point boasted that he finished Trinity College with ace degrees without ever having bothered to spend a single day in a reading room - seeing as even that would be considered 'work'.

    As for Townshend I couldn't care less about what he's saying these days. He made cornerstone statements of lyric and tone half a century ago. Or so.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Bear in mind that "middle class" means something far different in Britain than it does in the USA. Britain still has aristocracy, which comprises it's Upper Class. We do not. Much (many? most? all?) of the American Upper Class would fall into Britain's Middle Class.

    I don't know Entwistle or Townshends' family histories, so they may well have been Middle Class, (like the Genesis core,) but...

    Paging Ian for the full rundown.
    Well, my impression was that Pete and John came from somewhat more "well to do" families, whereas Roger was the quintessential working class Cockney. You can even hear it in their respective accents when they speak.
    If he was so unhappy with Moon & Ox, why didn't he just make another band? (greed)
    Probably because they were the only musicians who would put up with Pete and Roger fighting.

    I remember John being asked if he ever considered the band for a full time solo career, and he said something to the effect that he considered at least once a week.

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