What is it with Prog and vocals?

[bill g]

I think there are two main problems with prog vocals:

The majority of prog bands are bad at coming up with good tunes

Huh. Funny, what I tend to like most in prog, much more than virtuosity, are the abundance of really good melodies. I generally find melodies within pop, country, and modern rock quite bland by comparison. Even the prog I don't really listen to as much still has more interesting melodies. And interesting melody doesn't have to be tonal.

[rockcup]

My older topic.

https://www.progressiveears.org/foru...t-instrumental

[bigbassdrum]

Perhaps since we focus on prog, we feel this is a prog-only concept. We listen to a variety of prog, and thus get exposed to the good and the bad.

I'm thinking it might be non-genre occurance;

There might be forums out there for bluegrass, jazz, polka, country, etc that lament:
I love the music, but the vocals I can't stand
The music is great, if I could only get past the vocals

... but 'we' might not have a clue

[bill g]

Perhaps since we focus on prog, we feel this is a prog-only concept. We listen to a variety of prog, and thus get exposed to the good and the bad.

I'm thinking it might be non-genre occurance;

There might be forums out there for bluegrass, jazz, polka, country, etc that lament:
I love the music, but the vocals I can't stand
The music is great, if I could only get past the vocals

... but 'we' might not have a clue

I think you probably nailed it.

[Unfrankie Valli]

Might be an element of ignorance in that by "vocals" they actually mean "lyrics"?

[SteveSly]

One of my favorite vocalists ever is prog.

Steve Walsh of Kansas

One of the all time greats no doubt. The fact that they had Robby also as a very capable singer also played into what made them great. Today's version of the band has Ronnie Platt and Billy Greer who are both great vocalists too.

[SteveSly]

Although I like some all instrumental prog, the stuff I like best is a combination of great instrumental work with great (or unique) vocals. Although there are a lot of bands that fit this profile, I agree with the original post, that there are many many that are good instrumentally, but lack in the vocal department.

[soundsweird]

I'll freely admit that I've dismissed numerous prog bands because of average, bland, typical, or generic vocals. Bands that did everything else well. I'm a bit more forgiving when it comes to lyrics, but not much. Part of the reason is the fact that I've been listening critically to music since the late 60's, and part of has to do with the fact that I've been singing in bands (and later, studios) since then as well. Great music deserves a vocalist who has personality, originality and uniqueness.

[Dave (in MA)]

There might be forums out there for bluegrass, jazz, polka, country, etc that lament:
I love the music, but the vocals I can't stand
The music is great, if I could only get past the vocals

Probably about 1/3 to 1/2 of what I buy these days can be at least loosely defined as jazz, but I shy away from vocals.
This guy sums my viewpoint up pretty well, in the paragraph right beneath the track list:
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpres...-1968-gearbox/

[noisynoise]

I don't think there is a universal definition of a "good" singer for progressive rock, as the vocalists timbre, phrasing and character has to fit with the music at hand. Richard Sinclair is a vocalist I love, in isolation one may say his voice is quite deadpan and lacks emotion, but it raises up the Canterbury bands he's been in.

[markwoll]

It's all about context. If the voice works in the context of the music and vice versa, we have a winner.
Too often ( in Prog ), the vocals might be ok, technically, but suck in context with the music.
And when they don't match, the whole thing goes down in flames ( for me, it's all extremely subjective ).
When they mesh, there is a synergy that elevates and energizes the composition.

And to be fair, it's all music. Not just prog.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I love the music, but the vocals I can't stand

The music is great, if I could only get past the vocals

If I had a dime for every time that someone writes something along these lines in PE I'd be rich.

Is it the musicians' fault? Doesn't Prog produce great voices like other genres? Doesn't Prog care about the vocals, as much as it cares about the music? Or is it our fault as listeners, seeing vocals as a sad necessity until the next brilliant instrumental section, full of mellotrons and breathtaking guitar solos? Don't we in our hearts expect from the music to be something closer to instrumental classical or jazz music than contemporary pop/rock music?

I know this issue has been discussed randomly in other threads, but maybe we could see if there is a pattern here that defines the music we love or our own musical preferences as listeners.

So if you care, comment on this.

It's the main reason that (at least since 1990) I have gravitated more toward Jazz Rock than Symph Rock. I had a much higher tolerance for vocalists back in the 70s and 80s but nowadays when I hear some dude caterwauling over the music it's a major BUMMER

Thankfully, there seems to be an increase over the past decade or so of instrumental Symph Rock like Asturias and others

[SongForAmerica]

Progressive rock has featured some of the best vocalists ever:

Steve Walsh
Jon Anderson
Annie Haslam
Justin Hayward
Greg Lake
Tommy Shaw

Also, keep in mind that progressive rock is generally quite difficult to sing. As my voice teacher once told me, "You've chosen the most difficult genre of popular music in which to sing."

[SteveSly]

It's all about context. If the voice works in the context of the music and vice versa, we have a winner.
Too often ( in Prog ), the vocals might be ok, technically, but suck in context with the music.
And when they don't match, the whole thing goes down in flames ( for me, it's all extremely subjective ).
When they mesh, there is a synergy that elevates and energizes the composition.

And to be fair, it's all music. Not just prog.

Very good points.

[ombasan]

Geddy Lee?

[Trane]

FWIW, I think "objectively" bad vocals was more of a thing back in the 70s and neo-prog days than in the last 20 years.

Yup: whiny = bad
Actually outside Fish, neo-prog has had bad vocals for almost 40 years (in its infancy stages)

I dislike vocals on a jazz/fusion cd. Wasn't crazy about the vocals on the latest Virgil Donati cd. When Frank Gambale said he was having vocals on his recent release I almost threw up in my mouth.

Yuop, though most of the contemporary London jazz scene do feature somze vocals (often to show how "deep" they are), I'd reallyprefer if they didn't sing at all: let your music do the talking.

Many virtuoso bands are hampered by non-virtuoso vocals, IMO.

Plus, vocals have three disadvantages over instrumental music.
1. You can't read while listening to vocal music, because
2. Vocals require you to pay attention to the narrative in the lyrics, which
3. Limits the appeal of the lyrics to a time and place and language that the listener understands and appreciates.

1. not necessarily... especially if the lyrics are inconsequent and singing very average
2. again, if the lyrics and concept are weak
3. TBH, I have too little time left in my life to actually devote it much to "music listening only" (if I rzead your point right)

But yeah, I agree that non-virtuoso vocals can be a problem, though one of the thing I dislike is opera and a big turn-off about Italian Prog is those frustrated opera singers that still pound us in with those bel canto outcries.

Might be an element of ignorance in that by "vocals" they actually mean "lyrics"?

That was part of my post: if the singer (however good he can de as a singer) can only sing about boy loses girl, he's not a good singer-songwriter
I mean Jimbo had fantastic voice, and pleased women when he sang Love Me Two Times, but didn'ty do the same when singing about "Killers on the road" or Soft Parade.

Probably about 1/3 to 1/2 of what I buy these days can be at least loosely defined as jazz, but I shy away from vocals.
This guy sums my viewpoint up pretty well, in the paragraph right beneath the track list:
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpres...-1968-gearbox/

Hey I like Norma Winstone's vocalizing (scatting), just not her actual singing: I like what she did in the early 70's, but really don't care for that Azimuth band she was in.
But yeah, one of the reasons whu I don't dig Colosseum II is the vocals appearing on Strange New Flesh abnd a couple of tracks on eaxch of their other two ambums.
No probmlems woth the first Colosseum, though....even if I like better Litherland's vocals over Farlowe's.

I don't think there is a universal definition of a "good" singer for progressive rock, as the vocalists timbre, phrasing and character has to fit with the music at hand.

A, acquired taste in prog singer is Peter Hammill.. it took me almost 20 years to "get " him.

[Zappathustra]

I also think that progressive-rock has given some incredible voices, when they have the vocal range and they also experiment with the voice as instrument they make wonders. My favorites: Peter Hammill, Demetrio Stratos, Francesco Di Giacomo. These are inherently progressive singers, I mean that one can hardly imagine them in any other musical context. Some beautiful female examples too: Annie Haslam, Sonja Kristina, Inga Rumpf.

But still my main concern is on how we as listeners relate to the issue of vocals in progressive music. We get a lot of indignation - some good examples right here on this thread. When I encounter a voice that doesn't excite me I get to isolate it and enjoy the music regardless, whereas quite often people clearly claim that the vocals destroy the overall aesthetic pleasure they would get.

[yamishogun]

I would prefer Rush with someone other than Geddy Lee doing the vocals as well,

[infandous]

This topic amuses me, since the responses make it quite plain that it's a completely subjective subject. Someone thinks Glass Hammer vocals are great? They are the reason it took me so long to appreciate them, because I find them incredibly bland and detract from the music (except for the Jon Davison albums, which were the ones that finally helped me appreciate the band and their music).

Then someone else mentions Greg Lake as a bad singer. Lake is my favorite of all prog vocalists and one of my favorite vocalists of all time in any genre.

Peter Hammill is obviously one that we can all agree is a love it or hate it type of voice, but he is also one of my favorite vocalists of all time.

Anyway, it's all a matter of personal taste, but for me there are really very few prog bands where I don't like the vocals, or at least don't find them distractingly bad.

[progmatist]

Might be an element of ignorance in that by "vocals" they actually mean "lyrics"?

One prog band known for great lyrics is Magenta. The lyrics are typically written by Steve Reed, while Rob Reed primarily writes just the music. Another band with great lyrics is Rush, written by Neil Peart. Geddy and Alex primarily wrote just the music.

[Man In The Mountain]

This thread reminds me of the most absurd thing a prog guy told me once...

I was in line at Shank Hall in Milwaukee waiting to get in to see "John Wetton with District 97 plays the music of King Crimson." This guy in line behind me came to the show because he was a huge King Crimson fan, and I don't think he knew anything about D97. So, he says to me, "I hope they play mostly the instrumental Crimson stuff. Because I hate vocals. I actually made an edited tape of Crimson's music with all the vocals edited out."

Standing there I could help but think this poor demented soul was in for disappointment tonight. As the set mainly featured Wetton's vocal tunes.

[bill g]

This thread reminds me of the most absurd thing a prog guy told me once...

I was in line at Shank Hall in Milwaukee waiting to get in to see "John Wetton with District 97 plays the music of King Crimson." This guy in line behind me came to the show because he was a huge King Crimson fan, and I don't think he knew anything about D97. So, he says to me, "I hope they play mostly the instrumental Crimson stuff. Because I hate vocals. I actually made an edited tape of Crimson's music with all the vocals edited out."

Standing there I could help but think this poor demented soul was in for disappointment tonight. As the set mainly featured Wetton's vocal tunes.

Ah, I would have loved to see that show!

[Top Cat]

This topic amuses me, since the responses make it quite plain that it's a completely subjective subject. Someone thinks Glass Hammer vocals are great? They are the reason it took me so long to appreciate them, because I find them incredibly bland and detract from the music (except for the Jon Davison albums, which were the ones that finally helped me appreciate the band and their music).

This just proves the point how subjective the whole idea is. As a Glass Hammer fan, the Jon D era are my least favorite albums. I think Fred has a pretty good voice and so does Steve. Susie is one of the best out there to me, and my favorite Glass Hammer vocals from the past are the Walter Moore ones.

One prog band known for great lyrics is Magenta. The lyrics are typically written by Steve Reed, while Rob Reed primarily writes just the music. Another band with great lyrics is Rush, written by Neil Peart. Geddy and Alex primarily wrote just the music.

I love Magenta and think Christine Booth has a wonderful voice. I discovered Rob Reed when he released the first Cyan album, For King and Country(done in his room I believe when he was 16). I know it was before the internet and think I read something about him in Progressive Magazine(or some other one).

[Kcrimso]

There is lots of prog albums with bad vocal but even more with great ones.

[infandous]

This just proves the point how subjective the whole idea is. As a Glass Hammer fan, the Jon D era are my least favorite albums. I think Fred has a pretty good voice and so does Steve. Susie is one of the best out there to me, and my favorite Glass Hammer vocals from the past are the Walter Moore ones.

Yeah, I just find them pretty bland. I actually like Walter Moore's vocals, he has a good Steve Walsh kind of voice, I just always feel like he's too low in the mix. My absolute favorite album by them is Perilous, and I love the singer on Chronomotree (Fred and Steve both seem to think using that guy wasn't one of their best decisions). Go figure. So, yeah, pretty subjective.