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  1. #51
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I concur with this, Lino. If I never see another Yes thread it'd be fine with me.
    It's this kind of heresy that has led to ethnic cleansing in the past.

  2. #52
    Member Garyhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I concur with this, Lino. If I never see another Yes thread it'd be fine with me.
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  3. #53
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lino View Post
    True. However, much of that is due to parents' insistence on brainwashing kids from the time that they are born that the only true good music, is what THEY happen to like. Let's be honest here.
    That being said, most young people don't carry the same prejudices as their parents. They can like rock'n'roll ...and still listen to rap and hip-hop. We have good friends, husband is a drummer. The wife tells me their 14 year old son is drumming too, and learning Sabbath, Zep and all that stuff with his dad.... and loving it....but when he's listening to music, it's usually hip hop. lol
    People like to talk about the young folk they see at concerts and stuff... I recommend talking with them about music some time.
    I played music in my car when the kids were young. I played my records at home. But never once did I try to get them to appreciate "my" music. Why would I? Why would I want to over-take the most enjoyable years of music worship and discovery that every kid gos through as a teen? An experience all we music lovers here had... WITHOUT our parents help, guidance and assistance. People our age are good at SAYING that they are in constant search of new musical appreciation experiences, but soon as they have a kid, they start playing them their music from the 70s. lol It's indoctination! lol I watch my kids and their experience isn't much different than mine! They get together with friends, get high and listen to music. It just takes sitting in with them, grabbing a puff and listen to their stuff. Most of the time, I'm left wondering to myself " ...and your worried about not having turned them on to Nursery Chryme??" It's a joke. What they listen to is miles beyond, even when it's hip hop.... but most importantly...it's today.
    I'm not so sure. In the 70s, my parents tried to indoctrinate me to 50s music by constantly playing the 50s radio station. Somehow, that music never rubbed off on me.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  4. #54
    Lino, I do want to say that it wasn't my intent to denigrate anyone's taste. I simply can't get past who Kanye is as a person (at least his public image) enough to appreciate what he does musically.

    So, kudos to you for starting this thread.

  5. #55
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lino View Post
    All I know is that by putting hip hop on total ignore...music fans are missing out on "some" incredible offerings. As much as some people marvel that anybody could possibly like this genre at all, I marvel at how some people can't even get past a note, not just of this, but other great hip hop.
    Agreed. That said, I'm not a huge fan of rapping over singing, in the same way I don't like cookie monster vocals in my metal. Between that and the emotions that are often conveyed, I'm not "hip" to much hip-hop. However, I have a long time co-worker who has played me several tracks over the years that transcend many of the mainstream offerings and are really quite good, and I'm always open to listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lino View Post
    "We've heard it all before"

    Wow. That is my biggest complaint about what people call "new prog". The recycling in prog is beyond belief. That is why VERY little new "prog" does anything for me.... heard it all before.
    I'm not sure if this was in reference to my comments, but I want to make sure I put in context that you called it 'a work of art' and 'a brilliant artist' which sets a benchmark, opening up to some scrutiny.

    In other words, I'd prefer to judge it/listen without the hyperbole or expectations. FWIW, I stopped giving a shit that "prog" was recycling 20 years ago. I personally don't care if it's unique or a re-tread. If it's done well for my ears, I enjoy it. Most of my favorites from the last 10 years I'd hardly refer to as unique or groundbreaking. I'm just happy it's out there.
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  6. #56
    Occipital Provocatee Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    I didn't listen to the Kanye album and I'm not sure if I will since it's hard to find the time lately, but you never know.

    But I was just thinking that I'm so ignorant of rap and hip-hop that I probably wouldn't know if this was brilliant or not since I don't have any familiarity with what lead up to this point in the genre(s). On the other hand, I can't say I actually judge rock or prog rock by it's originality or what new things it brings to the genre of rock music or how it may be turning old cliches on their head, etc. I just go by what I like. I do think it's possible that a rap or hip-hop album (or several of them) may be lurking out there that I could enjoy (particularly if the sonics are top-notch). Somehow I think it would end up being a limited interest for me, like some other genres. I mean, I like some melodic prog metal, but I really only have a limited need for that style for some reason. I can respect the sort of talent required for rap, but as a musician, much of what excites me about the music I listen to is the musicianship. That goes all the way back to the adolescent spark I felt when hearing Rush and not being able to decide which I wanted to play more - guitar, bass, or drums. Seems like that's unlikely to be an angle I'd appreciate when it comes to rap and hip-hop.
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Yeah...

    Sorry, but I'll have to go along with the majority here. I hear nothing even close to brilliant.

    Simple and mundane harmonies, rhythms, melodies, progressions, etc, etc.

    I've had people over the years try to get me into various forms of rap and hip hop, but I have the same problems with it all, it is all way too simplistic and banal, musically, for me.

    I have no problems with some of the political and social messages in some rap and hip hop (not Kanye, though), but that is a separate issue from the standard by which I use to rate the quality of music.
    Glad to see I'm not the only one. Just cannot stand anything rap/techno/hip hop/house or whatever. Never have and I'm old enough to have heard it in the early days and I never liked it then.

    I never will. I don't understand noise that has no melody. I wish I could be more well rounded in my listening tastes but I just can't stomach crap that doesn't resemble music in the way that I understand music to be. I've also had many people over the years try and turn me onto whatever but it never works.

    Do I get my street cred ruined because I somewhat dig Baby Shark? It's so stupid that it's like a MST3K movie. A train wreck that you just can't turn away from.
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  8. #58
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    I reject the notion that disliking Hip Hop = closed mindedness. Or that not liking it is the result of not giving it a chance, etc, etc.
    "If you want to see the true nature of humanity, just look at the internet."

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  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I reject the notion that disliking Hip Hop = closed mindedness. Or that not liking it is the result of not giving it a chance, etc, etc.
    Or that you’re an old fashioned fuddy-duddy for not giving it a chance. It’s a nearly 40 year old genre, so how is it “modern”?
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  10. #60
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Not my jams. Its somebody's jam, somebody else's, just not mine. And that's OK.

    Seriously though, there's plenty of highly revered albums in progdom that I have no use for. Plenty of great music I do like to which I can listen - I don't need to learn to "get" anything. Kanye's music may as well be tuvan throat singing accompanied by metal machine music to me.

  11. #61
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I reject the notion that disliking Hip Hop = closed mindedness. Or that not liking it is the result of not giving it a chance, etc, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Progbear View Post
    Or that you’re an old fashioned fuddy-duddy for not giving it a chance. It’s a nearly 40 year old genre, so how is it “modern”?
    Except that, for many people on PE, "cRAP" is the overwhelming response. Closed mindedness and "old fashioned" mentalities DO occur on PE frequently, so it's not without merit. Additionally, many people on PE and other prog sites over the years consider their tastes superior, refined, and "progressive" even though they are often anything but.

    That doesn't invalidate one's opinion, but there are indeed a fair amount of people who fit the stereotype.
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  12. #62
    The album is way better than a lot of mainstream hip-hop that my elder daughter listens to. There is a certain amount of creativity involved. It's a clever concept.

    I am not a fan of this kind of music but this is definitely not as bad as people here describe it.

    As for his persona I couldn't care less. I judge the music, not the man. Statistically quite a few of the artists I love have to be complete assholes as persons, without me ever knowing it. And sometimes me knowing it.
    Last edited by Zappathustra; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:48 AM.

  13. #63
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    One of my biggest problems with hip-hop is pretty much the same as one I have with dance pop. Actually it goes all the way back to disco. It's that goddamn metronome soulless beat. I remember George Clinton called the disco beat "it's like making love with one stroke". There's no drums with personality, no fills or rolls. IT'S BORING.

    Also, get off my lawn (at this point on PE we could probably use an icon for that).
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  14. #64
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    IT'S BORING.
    4/4 beat, major scale, stepwise melody line (if any), stereotyped lyrics, stereotyped delivery, constant beat with no variation, repetitive single-measure structure with no variation, rotten fidelity, misogyny, xenophobia, even self-loathing.

    Utterly simplistic, in other words. Playing to the lowest common denominator. Rap is to music as fast food is to dining.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    As for his persona I couldn't care less. I judge the music, not the man. Statistically quite a few of the artists I love have to be complete assholes as persons, without me ever knowing it. And sometimes me knowing it.
    For me it's not so much whether or not Kanye is a jerk. It's not even about his vanity. It's that to an incredible degree he's willfully ignorant of a lot of important things, and exerts that influence on his followers.

    To quote Chris Evans (the actor), who put it much better than I could:
    There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. [...]
    That's my biggest issue with Kanye.

  16. #66
    ^^ I understand what you are saying. There are also a lot of rock musicians out there pontificating on things of which they have little or no knowledge. They might be talented artists but have no idea what they are talking about when they comment beyond their art. A lot of issues are complex and take much studying and thought, and a musician whose time and energy is mostly dedicated to creating might not have the time and energy to study complex issues enough to develop informed opinions.

    A lot of it might be confirmation bias we all can fall victim to. If someone is in line with our views we might convince ourselves that they are wise and know what they are talking about. If someone has different views than us we see them as uninformed and ignorant. The moral is nothing a musician says or does has any bearing on whether I enjoy the music. It's just about the music.

  17. #67
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartellb View Post
    ^^ I understand what you are saying. There are also a lot of rock musicians out there pontificating on things of which they have little or no knowledge. They might be talented artists but have no idea what they are talking about when they comment beyond their art.
    Well, we live in a different world than most of us did growing up. Unless you were a deep follower of an artist, it's very possible you could go a lifetime without ever really knowing (or caring) about their world views. The internet and social media amplifies these views for everyone to see. In some cases, it's one remark made 20 years that gets blown out of proportion. In other cases, it's purposely done to promote your personal brand and influence. In still other cases, people know they have an audience and want to speak.

    A lot of issues are complex and take much studying and thought, and a musician whose time and energy is mostly dedicated to creating might not have the time and energy to study complex issues enough to develop informed opinions.
    We have billions of people providing their uninformed opinions, whatever their actual profession lol. In other words, I think musicians (like anyone else) can walk and chew gum at the same time. The major difference between you or myself pontificating and a famous artist is that the artist has an audience that's listening.

    A lot of it might be confirmation bias we all can fall victim to. If someone is in line with our views we might convince ourselves that they are wise and know what they are talking about. If someone has different views than us we see them as uninformed and ignorant.
    Welcome to the internet lol. Bias (in many forms) certainly enters the fray. Speaking personally for myself, Kanye's personality and attitude has more affect on me than any of his world views (that I'm aware of).

    The moral is nothing a musician says or does has any bearing on whether I enjoy the music. It's just about the music.
    Do you feel you can honestly say this unilaterally? Many stopped listening to Michael Jackson (for example) because of what he was accused of doing. I didn't stop personally because I can't realistically detach myself from the music I grew up listening to. But I have to respect those who did stop.
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  18. #68
    ^^Prbably not unilaterally. If someone did something heinous it might be difficult to still listen to them. I can't think of any cases where this applies to me regarding a musician I really enjoy. Michael Jackson might be a good example. I was never much of a fan but could tolerate hia music Now I can't listen without thinking about what he is accused of doing. Maybe if I was more of a fan of his music it wouldn't matter as much to my enjoyment.

  19. #69
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    You kids turn down that noise!!!!!
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  20. #70
    Okay. Rap/hiphop is a legitimate form of expression (i.e., "art form"), and can rise to the level of "high art". It's just that Sturgeon's Law ("99% of everything shit") applies to it, just as much as it does to any other form of expression.

    At one level, rap/Hiphop comes from the same impulse that created punk/new wave: the DIY mentality aligned with the technology to make it happen. It's a form that gives those without access to intensive training the ability to express themselves, and so it ultimately democratic in its nature.

    In addition, it has gotten to be like metal in the '80s. Originally a powerful means of political expression (i.e., "Heavy Metal"), it has largely been neutered by a commercial revamp that isn't about politics but excess: "Hair Metal" and "Gangsta Rap". The offspring versions have the feeling of defiance and glamor but the real meat is taken out and it's safe for "the establishment".

    Some examples of "the good stuff" (for me) would come from Public Enemy, Run-D.M.C. and (believe it or not) Eminem. ("Stan" is one of the most devastating pieces of artistically arranged sound I have ever heard.)

    Rap is directly related to the Gilbert-and-Sullivan "pattersong", and to things like "One Night in Bangkok" and "You Can Call Me Al"
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  21. #71
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    ...(believe it or not) Eminem. ("Stan" is one of the most devastating pieces of artistically arranged sound I have ever heard.)

    Rap is directly related to the Gilbert-and-Sullivan "pattersong", and to things like "One Night in Bangkok" and "You Can Call Me Al"
    After watching, and enjoying "8 Mile," I actually made myself a compilation of Mathers' music. I'm embarrassed to admit this, because is it okay to like a white rap artist? But yeah, "Stan" and the whole Marshall Mathers album is pretty cool.

    And as to the origins of rap? The Last Poets were doing this in the late 1960s in New York. I first heard them on a Warner-Reprise loss leader album. Don't forget Gil Scott Heron either. Also, I just watched Eddie Murphy's new movie about Rudy Ray Moore ("Dolemite Is My Name"), and Moore has some legitimate claim to doing similar stuff about the same time. There's nothing new under the sun. anyone who tells you rap is a new genre doesn't know shit about history.

  22. #72
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    The album is way better than a lot of mainstream hip-hop that my elder daughter listens to. There is a certain amount of creativity involved. It's a clever concept.

    I am not a fan of this kind of music but this is definitely not as bad as people here describe it.

    As for his persona I couldn't care less. I judge the music, not the man. Statistically quite a few of the artists I love have to be complete assholes as persons, without me ever knowing it. And sometimes me knowing it.

  23. #73
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    "The Real Slim Shady" presentation at the MTV Awards was pretty dope too.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I reject the notion that disliking Hip Hop = closed mindedness. Or that not liking it is the result of not giving it a chance, etc, etc.
    I absolutely agree.

    I just do not enjoy, simple, repetitive, emotionally shallow music with mediocre musicianship. Country, hip hop, rap, mainstream rock, pop, all tend to have those attributes that I do not enjoy in music. If someone wants to call me closed minded based on that, have at it.

    Any form of music where things like: clothing styles, stage attitude, elaborate stage shows, overall attitude, who the performer is dating, etc, is as important as the music, it will probably not appeal to me.

    I am constantly open to new forms of music. I embraced prog-metal and technical metal, even though I am not a metal fan overall. I am listening to more classical, mostly atonal, than ever, I have broadened my tastes in jazz. I like a lot of instrumental Bluegrass.

    Or that you’re an old fashioned fuddy-duddy for not giving it a chance. It’s a nearly 40 year old genre, so how is it “modern”?
    I also agree with this.

    As I said above, it had nothing to do with me being "old fashioned fuddy-duddy" when I was exposed to rap and hip hop, it had everything to do with the music itself.

    Here we go. Andrew Milne's "Dapp Theory" with rap/hip hop vocals. I love these guys!

    Monster musicians, playing rhythmically complex music, with zero attitude.

    If anyone here actually thinks Kanye is better than this, there may be nothing more to talk about.




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  25. #75
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    If anyone here actually thinks Kanye is better than this, there may be nothing more to talk about.
    I can't dance to it, man.

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