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  1. #26
    I heard a BBC interview with him the other night where he stated he was the "Greatest Human Artist of All Time". A few years ago when McCartney was working with him, Sir Paul was a bit bewildered at how West does what he does because all West did was look at pictures of his wife on his phone.

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  2. #27
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I am kinda meh about this and I did like a couple of his earlier things



    Kanye is a bit of a fourteen karat idiot and he is on a big stretch of stepping on his own dick. I love this take from the NY Post on his ridiculous wedding.

    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adm.Kirk View Post
    I heard a BBC interview with him the other night where he stated he was the "Greatest Human Artist of All Time". A few years ago when McCartney was working with him, Sir Paul was a bit bewildered at how West does what he does because all West did was look at pictures of his wife on his phone.

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    “Pleasure and pain can be experienced simultaneously,” she said, gently massaging my back as we listened to her Coldplay CD.

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  5. #30
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Wife & I just watched "Echo in the Canyon," the Netflix documentary about the incredible confluence of talent that coalesced in Laurel Canyon during 1965-1967: The Byrds, The Mamas & The Papas, The Beach Boys, Frank Zappa, Buffalo Springfield, Crosby Stills & Nash, etc. Graham Nash predicts in the film that the wealth of great songwriting that these people put forth, and that they inspired in each other, will go down in history as a locus of talent equivalent to Paris in the 1920s (Stein, Duchamp, Picasso, Eliot, Klein, Hemingway, Matisse, Anderson, F. Scott Fitzgerald), or Vienna in 1900 (Wagner, Schönberg, Webern, Mahler, Freud, Klimt, Wittgenstein, etc.) Sometimes a milieu just arises, out of nothing, and it changes everything.

    I turned to the Mrs and said, "You know, we were SO LUCKY to grow up with the music we did, with such great melodies and lyrics and songwriting. This music we grew up with is just as vital today as the day it was written. Kids today, what'll they have to be nostalgic about when they get old? Chance The Rapper? Lil Uzi? Gunna? Cardi B?"

    "No," she replied. "They'll still be listening to music from the Sixties."

  6. #31
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I turned to the Mrs and said, "You know, we were SO LUCKY to grow up with the music we did, with such great melodies and lyrics and songwriting. This music we grew up with is just as vital today as the day it was written. Kids today, what'll they have to be nostalgic about when they get old? Chance The Rapper? Lil Uzi? Gunna? Cardi B?"

    "No," she replied. "They'll still be listening to music from the Sixties."

    I half agree with this. On one hand, what gives the 60s/70s staying power was the revolution in cultural change that allowed musical forms like rock and jazz to "be free". Music and art is inextricably linked to this cultural revolution, would you not agree? Would we still be talking about The Beatles today if they were restricted to songs like "I Want to Hold your Hand"? I think not.

    That said, each generation grows up with the "soundtrack of their lives". That music means something to them, even it ends up being Cardi B. I will always have a love for 80s music and the early days of MTV and music videos that defined my early teens. 80s music was fun and catchy.

    But we haven't had another moment in time similar to 50 years ago that sparked an artistic revolution such as this. And with the advent of Cable TV, the internet, social media, and Spotify, we may never again. Even though music now has the power to "go viral" and affect billions of people in a moment in time, it's drowned out by 1,000s upon 1,000s of pieces of content fighting for our attention. As a result, very little art - in any form - has any staying power.

    IMO, part of the reason the music from that day had so much staying power was the advent of "classic rock radio" back in a time when access to content was controlled. Users listened to the radio or they purchased their vinyl and spun it 50 times. One could argue that kind of repetition (since there wasn't the kind of ADD we have today) led to a lot of conditioning or "brainwashing" of much of that music.

    Is American culture going to remember this Kanye album 20 years from now? Likely not. But consider it's going up against 50+ years of music and the constant "news feed" of content that is happening now.
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  7. #32
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    But consider it's going up against 50+ years of music and the constant "news feed" of content that is happening now.
    Yeah, but Sixties rock 'n roll grew out of 50+ years of music before it, in the form of doo-wop and skiffle and the blues and big band music and Tin Pan Alley. No music arises in a vacuum.

    There's been great music, lasting music is almost every genre. Maybe I'm too old to appreciate it -- although my parents thought the Beatles were great -- but nothing my daughter listens to strikes my ear as "something for the ages." It's all too formulaic and simple.

  8. #33
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Yeah, but Sixties rock 'n roll grew out of 50+ years of music before it, in the form of doo-wop and skiffle and the blues and big band music and Tin Pan Alley. No music arises in a vacuum.

    There's been great music, lasting music is almost every genre. Maybe I'm too old to appreciate it -- although my parents thought the Beatles were great -- but nothing my daughter listens to strikes my ear as "something for the ages." It's all too formulaic and simple.
    Good points. To be honest, I try not use my own ears as a barometer for such things (as difficult as that is). People like us who have gone out of our way to explore music over the years are going to tend to be a lot more difficult to please in the "originality" department. That's the primary reason imo why this Kanye album doesn't impress me (or most people on PE). We've heard it all before. But there are some people for which this album is truly groundbreaking to their ears. Here's hoping it inspires some people to explore less mainstream music, or even become the next musician to create it.
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  9. #34
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Friend of mine in Minneapolis attended a concert recently by Goblin, and was surprised to see a lot of young people there. WTF?

    He found out later some popular French hip-hop group had sampled Goblin. Kind of a back-handed way to learn to appreciate a group, but okay, we'll take it.

    BTW, I'm watching Arsenio Hall's new Netflix stand-up special right now, and he says Kanye should do a song based on Trump's words. Except it'd be too dirty for radio.

  10. #35
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    We underappreciated radio for its cultural significance in music. Certainly it was never as diverse as the internet is now, but there were radio stations that did have DJs that were interested in introducing new music. The Police or The Cars for examples, who are now classic rock staples, but were cutting edge at one point in time; two bands that were nothing alike but were still part of a 'new wave' that may have been rejected by some tastemakers the way early rock was in the '50s.

    Yes, the stuff I hear coming from Kanye is bracing to me; I can't get with his music or opinions. But my wife, who is always rooted in music she recognizes (pop), finds Kanye's music no less bracing or indigestible than most of my progressive rock or jazz music. She's accidentally warmed up to a few of Marillion's more accessible tunes (even if she thinks the singer sounds like "he's about to cry"). But for the most part even a band like Glass Hammer may as well be Henry Cow to her. Even some of progdom's most revered acts and albums have as much place in my playlist as most rap or hip hop or country (as in very little).

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Friend of mine in Minneapolis attended a concert recently by Goblin, and was surprised to see a lot of young people there. WTF?

    He found out later some popular French hip-hop group had sampled Goblin. Kind of a back-handed way to learn to appreciate a group, but okay, we'll take it.
    There are also a lot of young Goblin fans, based on their Horror movie soundtracks. Many of their young fans are Goth.

    I went to see Goblin about a year ago, and also about 4 years ago. The vast majority of the audience were young Goth types and horror movie fans. Hardly any prog fans.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  12. #37
    Managed a couple of minutes, and, though I am religious, this kind of gospel music does not rock-a my soul in the bosom of Abraham.
    Maka ki ecela tehani yanke lo!

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    I listened to the whole thing. It has its moments. Since you're framing the thread by calling it "a work of art" and "brilliant artist", I think even the more open-minded listener will still have to knock this down a few pegs. For me there was nothing groundbreaking. Kanye and his gaggle of co-writers and producers created a nice gospel/hip-hop/R&B pastiche, that is light on the rapping cliches, and definitely melodious, but also a bit cliche in the technique department. But this genre blending is nothing new. That said, only a few moments "hooked" me.

    But thanks for posting. It's always great to be potentially turned on to something you were otherwise not familiar.
    I prefer some of his other works myself, however, seeing as this one is new, short, and has an over all positive message, not thuggish...ahhhh waddu I care. lol Just trying to get some people to join the new century I guess. All I know is that by putting hip hop on total ignore...music fans are missing out on "some" incredible offerings. As much as some people marvel that anybody could possibly like this genre at all, I marvel at how some people can't even get past a note, not just of this, but other great hip hop. That's how impressed I am with some of the better stuff out there. Why can the same people who dig Gil Scot Heron for example, not move over that one degree? This isn't a complaint, just observation. Same with those who love electronic music. I mean Kraftwerk were a huge influence on the scene. Trans Europe express has the same electronic beat through the whole song, with German accent guy talking over it. They are geniuses, and hip hoppers aren't "playing music"...as if 4 guys with a couple knobs each on stage is any different. I see a bit of a double standard, but hey it's all good.
    Lastly, the youtube experience, not quite the same as how I was turned on to it, cranked up on a stereo. It's a great sounding work.

  14. #39
    "We've heard it all before"

    Wow. That is my biggest complaint about what people call "new prog". The recycling in prog is beyond belief. That is why VERY little new "prog" does anything for me.... heard it all before.

    I'll leave you with something... local (to me) rapper Lee Reed working with experimental space jazz band Haolin Munk.




  15. #40
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Wife & I just watched "Echo in the Canyon," the Netflix documentary about the incredible confluence of talent that coalesced in Laurel Canyon during 1965-1967: The Byrds, The Mamas & The Papas, The Beach Boys, Frank Zappa, Buffalo Springfield, Crosby Stills & Nash, etc. Graham Nash predicts in the film that the wealth of great songwriting that these people put forth, and that they inspired in each other, will go down in history as a locus of talent equivalent to Paris in the 1920s (Stein, Duchamp, Picasso, Eliot, Klein, Hemingway, Matisse, Anderson, F. Scott Fitzgerald), or Vienna in 1900 (Wagner, Schönberg, Webern, Mahler, Freud, Klimt, Wittgenstein, etc.) Sometimes a milieu just arises, out of nothing, and it changes everything.

    I turned to the Mrs and said, "You know, we were SO LUCKY to grow up with the music we did, with such great melodies and lyrics and songwriting. This music we grew up with is just as vital today as the day it was written. Kids today, what'll they have to be nostalgic about when they get old? Chance The Rapper? Lil Uzi? Gunna? Cardi B?"

    "No," she replied. "They'll still be listening to music from the Sixties."
    It would amaze you how many young people listen to and appreciate our music.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  16. #41
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lino View Post
    I mean Kraftwerk were a huge influence on the scene. Trans Europe express has the same electronic beat through the whole song, with German accent guy talking over it. They are geniuses, and hip hoppers aren't "playing music"...as if 4 guys with a couple knobs each on stage is any different.
    I see your point. Kraftwerk, at their worst, were pretty musically bereft too. I parted ways with them after "Autobahn" for that reason.

    However the "thuggish" personas, as you put it, also have a lot to do with the dislike of rap & hip-hop. This anti-social posing, denigration of women, celebration of violence, ostentatious displays of new-found wealth (with no responsibility for "giving back to the community") are not good role models. One could argue this movement has not been beneficial to racial healing, from EITHER side of the racial divide.

    Not everything that has come out of the movement has been bad of course. People like Nils Petter Molvaer and Jan Bang and Jon Hassell have made creative use of scratching and turntablism, and people like Russell Gunn have appropriated hip-hop rhythms. It's all what you do with the tools.

    The top ten rap songs on the chart are uniformly lame. But then "top ten" hits almost always are, because people are sheep.

  17. #42
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    With most major pop genres, those that experiment and advance the form are often the ones out on the fringes.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  18. #43
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised -- at least not TOO surprised -- to discover there's good music in the genre.

    However, Kanye isn't going to be it.

  19. #44
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    I've been playing the crap out of Wu-Tang Clan "Enter the Wu-Tang" recently - great great record.

  20. #45
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lino View Post
    Just trying to get some people to join the new century I guess.
    I concur with this, Lino. If I never see another Yes thread it'd be fine with me.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    It would amaze you how many young people listen to and appreciate our music.
    True. However, much of that is due to parents' insistence on brainwashing kids from the time that they are born that the only true good music, is what THEY happen to like. Let's be honest here.
    That being said, most young people don't carry the same prejudices as their parents. They can like rock'n'roll ...and still listen to rap and hip-hop. We have good friends, husband is a drummer. The wife tells me their 14 year old son is drumming too, and learning Sabbath, Zep and all that stuff with his dad.... and loving it....but when he's listening to music, it's usually hip hop. lol
    People like to talk about the young folk they see at concerts and stuff... I recommend talking with them about music some time.
    I played music in my car when the kids were young. I played my records at home. But never once did I try to get them to appreciate "my" music. Why would I? Why would I want to over-take the most enjoyable years of music worship and discovery that every kid gos through as a teen? An experience all we music lovers here had... WITHOUT our parents help, guidance and assistance. People our age are good at SAYING that they are in constant search of new musical appreciation experiences, but soon as they have a kid, they start playing them their music from the 70s. lol It's indoctination! lol I watch my kids and their experience isn't much different than mine! They get together with friends, get high and listen to music. It just takes sitting in with them, grabbing a puff and listen to their stuff. Most of the time, I'm left wondering to myself " ...and your worried about not having turned them on to Nursery Chryme??" It's a joke. What they listen to is miles beyond, even when it's hip hop.... but most importantly...it's today.

  22. #47
    I like some rap, not exactly a deep enthusiast but I do like stuff like EL-P, some of Kendrick Lamar, older "popular" acts from the 80's/90's, and I unreservedly love the unholy hell out of Dalek. Perhaps unfortunately for me, I can't separate Mr. West's art from his public persona; it's too distracting and grating against my brain and as a result I simply can't hear his music in and of itself. I have had similar problems with other artists: Ted Nugent, Burzum, even Tyler the Creator. That's on me as a listener, and if indeed he is a genius then it is my loss for not being able to recognize it. I'll own that, but I'll also say that I'm not feeling much poorer for his absence among my musical adventures.

    But, full respect for throwing it out there and seeing how it is received, Lino
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  23. #48
    I remember seeing a 3 piece once who blew me away for how incredibly Canterbury they were. Keyboardist was nailing that Stewart/Ratledge sound, the bass player was clearly a Hopper disciple, and the drummer had his shirt off, ala Wyatt, hair flying everywhere... they put on a really cool show for 3 local young guys in their 20s, and as close as I'll ever get to hearing live SM3 era music. lol I became an FB friend with the drummer last year. He pasted his fave albums of 2018, and number 1 was a straight out rap album from a local artist. And in the last year or so, I've bumped into him at Crimson, and King Gizzard shows.

    That's the difference between young music appreciators and most older peeps. They grew up with hip hop as part of their culture. It doesn't scare them or disgust them.

    Look man, I get it... not easy getting old, and being set in your ways. However, one excuse that I find funny is the "language" and violence and mysogeny of rap music. How about the stuff we listened to? Kill your father, fuck your mother Jim Morrison? Bands telling you to leave school, hate "the Man", hate "the pigs" , do drugs, turn on, join a commune. Imagine what our poor parents thought? Mine thought the Beatles were disgusting hippies, and that's Sullivan era! lol But we were cool with it, right? They can sing about heroin, but we didn't want to do that stuff. "One pill makes you...". They can talk about getting out of the school system that was indoctrinating us, but we still wanted our education. They could sing about the cop pigs, but we were smart enough to know there's nothing wrong with respecting the law if you want to stay free. Free sex, free love. Yet, we get on our soapbox and worry about kids listening to hip hoppers relay street stories and mysogeny. Yet we had go-go dancers on acid, caged in a mini jail cell on stage, like sex slaves, dancing to the groovy tunes. God forbid a chick twerks on a rap video, and the world is going to hell! lol

  24. #49
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Friend of mine in Minneapolis attended a concert recently by Goblin, and was surprised to see a lot of young people there. WTF?
    It's largely due to millennials' & Gen Z'ers' fondness for retro horror, stemming from their love for all things '70s-'80s, especially Argento & [Italian] giallo cinema. They love Goblin and want to hear them knock out tunes from Profondo Rosso, Suspiria and Zombi (Dawn of the Dead). Goblin's enjoyed a nice renaissance for years now, and it's certainly spurred $ales of new vinyl.

  25. #50
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lino View Post
    Yet we had go-go dancers on acid, caged in a mini jail cell on stage, like sex slaves, dancing to the groovy tunes. God forbid a chick twerks on a rap video, and the world is going to hell! lol

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