Could USA have been a double LP?

[GuitarGeek]

A couple years back, I was listening to the CD edition of USA, and I started thinking if it could have made a good double LP. I don't remember the exact tack list I came up with at the time, but here's one possible version:

Side One
1. No Pussyfooting play on
2. Larks Tongues II
3. Lament
4. Exiles

Side Two
1. Improv: Asbury Park
2. Easy Money (full length version, including the long improv it segued out of)

Side Three

1. Doctor Diamond (from Pittsburgh)
2. The Night Watch (from Pittsburgh)
3. Fracture

Side Four
1. Starless
2. 21st Century Schizoid Man

What do you think? I know Starless was considered a work in progress at that point, but as I've said before, I prefer the way it sounded onstage in 74 (particularly during that last shows from the US tours, where John sang the "You may win/But you lose" at the end of the last stanza) over the studio version.

Another possibility would be to squeeze in Cat Food from either the Glasgow or Zurich shows from the preceding autumn. But what would you bump to make room for it? Maybe you could shoehorn it onto side one (22 minutes isn't too long, is it?).

Mind you, if they had done more multi-track recording, or if we were to allow ourselves the use of the soundboard tapes that comprise most of the Starless set, I'd swap some of the material around a bit. For instance, I'd probably open the album with the Mainz Dr. Diamond (including the improv that precedes it). And if a multi-track tape existed of one of those shows where they did the improv seguing into Starless, I might be inclined to send Wetton back into the studio to record the finished lyrics (but, once again, having him sing "You may win/But you lose" at the end of the last stanza).

And yes, I'm bored. I do a lot of this armchair record producer thing, e.g. "Why the frell didn't Uriah Heep put Son Of A Bitch on Abominog?! It's seriously better than a couple songs that DID make it onto the album" or "Why did the Grateful Dead include that horrendous version of You Win Again on Europe '72, but leave Two Souls In Communion on the shelf for over 20 years?!". Or I used to, now that I think about it, this is the first time in awhile I've really done this.

[starless and bible black]

A couple years back, I was listening to the CD edition of USA, and I started thinking if it could have made a good double LP. I don't remember the exact tack list I came up with at the time, but here's one possible version:

Side One
1. No Pussyfooting play on
2. Larks Tongues II
3. Lament
4. Exiles

Side Two
1. Improv: Asbury Park
2. Easy Money (full length version, including the long improv it segued out of)

Side Three

1. Doctor Diamond (from Pittsburgh)
2. The Night Watch (from Pittsburgh)
3. Fracture

Side Four
1. Starless
2. 21st Century Schizoid Man

What do you think? I know Starless was considered a work in progress at that point, but as I've said before, I prefer the way it sounded onstage in 74 (particularly during that last shows from the US tours, where John sang the "You may win/But you lose" at the end of the last stanza) over the studio version.

Another possibility would be to squeeze in Cat Food from either the Glasgow or Zurich shows from the preceding autumn. But what would you bump to make room for it? Maybe you could shoehorn it onto side one (22 minutes isn't too long, is it?).

Mind you, if they had done more multi-track recording, or if we were to allow ourselves the use of the soundboard tapes that comprise most of the Starless set, I'd swap some of the material around a bit. For instance, I'd probably open the album with the Mainz Dr. Diamond (including the improv that precedes it). And if a multi-track tape existed of one of those shows where they did the improv seguing into Starless, I might be inclined to send Wetton back into the studio to record the finished lyrics (but, once again, having him sing "You may win/But you lose" at the end of the last stanza).

And yes, I'm bored. I do a lot of this armchair record producer thing, e.g. "Why the frell didn't Uriah Heep put Son Of A Bitch on Abominog?! It's seriously better than a couple songs that DID make it onto the album" or "Why did the Grateful Dead include that horrendous version of You Win Again on Europe '72, but leave Two Souls In Communion on the shelf for over 20 years?!". Or I used to, now that I think about it, this is the first time in awhile I've really done this.

Heck yes; King Crimson's USA could've been a double (or even a triple) LP. However, KC was a "cult band" (that had broken up in Oct. 1974) at the time of the USA's release so I guess that EG Records did not want to put out a two record set at that time (they would do the same thing with U.K.'s Night After Night in 1979). Of course, Crimson would make up for this by issuing the expanded version of USA (not to mention The Great Deceiver box set, The Night Watch and many other live recordings from the 73-74 period on DGM Live).

[LeFrog]

I'll take the Asbury Park full concert album over USA anytime, if only for the full version of Easy Money which was criminally faded out early on USA, just before it builds up. The full Asbury Park improv and David Cross's contribution are also a plus.

[NogbadTheBad]

They should have released it as a boxset ......

[Dave (in MA)]

I know Starless was considered a work in progress at that point, but as I've said before, I prefer the way it sounded onstage in 74 (particularly during that last shows from the US tours, where John sang the "You may win/But you lose" at the end of the last stanza) over the studio version.

Maybe you already know this, but that unused verse was used later in a modified form for UK's Caesar's Palace Blues.

[progmatist]

Not only could and should USA have been a double album, so too should have been ELP In Concert.

[GuitarGeek]

Heck yes; King Crimson's USA could've been a double (or even a triple) LP.

No, it couldnt' have been a triple. There was enough songs played during that era to warrant that. I suppose you could pad it out with some improvs and Cat Food (which was played at two of the shows that were recorded for Starless And Bible Black), but I'm not sure the improvs were different enough from night to night to include more than what was the on the original album.

Maybe you already know this, but that unused verse was used later in a modified form for UK's Caesar's Palace Blues.

"You may win/But you lose" isn't there.

[pb2015]

If Fripp had put it together in the 70's I don't know if he would have used the Pittsburgh gig as according to his diary he thought he played terribly that night. Of course, he did include an edited version of that gig in The Great Deceiver and I believe the whole show is available from DGM Live.

[Mister Triscuits]

"You may win/But you lose" isn't there.

"Either way you lose" is pretty close to that, Mr. Rolleyes.

[Dave (in MA)]

Rolls his eyes at a link to a post by Mr. Wetton himself.

[pb2015]

Rolls his eyes at a link to a post by Mr. Wetton himself.

I didn't know Wetton had a message board, that's good to learn.

[GuitarGeek]

If Fripp had put it together in the 70's I don't know if he would have used the Pittsburgh gig as according to his diary he thought he played terribly that night. Of course, he did include an edited version of that gig in The Great Deceiver and I believe the whole show is available from DGM Live.

The whole gig is also on The Road To Red. And yes, you're right, at the time, Fripp apparently felt he played badly that particular night. He apparently even mentioned to their manager that he didn't do any future radio or TV broadcasts where he (or presumably, any other band member) would be unable to veto the broadcast. Mind you, I don't think his playing sounds that bad, but ya know what they say about artists being self-critical.

But Pittsburgh is the only show captured on multi-track where The Night Watch and Dr Diamond were played. I'm not sure if the quality and/or mix on the soundboard tapes would be good enough for inclusion alongside the Asbury Park and Providence recordings. Who knows what kind of 21st century pixie dust had to be sprinkled on those tapes to make them sound as good as they do on The Road To Red.

But you're probably right, certainly in 74-75, Fripp might have been disinclined to use anything from that show. Hence, my theoretical double LP configuration would have been "not on", regardless of EG were willing to put out.

I'd have to go back and listen to The Road To Red again, but I'm not sure what of the improvs from the shows that recorded on multi-track one might be able to use. Maybe The Golden Walnut or Clueless And Slightly Slack from the Toronto show? (shrug)

Would be interesting to know if Fripp even considered the possibility of a double live album, or if he viewed such releases as "too much" or whatever. I can somehow totally see him feeling that other bands stretched themselves thin when putting together live albums just so that it could be a "deluxe package" double LP or whatever (never mind things like Chicago At Carnegie Hall, which was a quadruple LP boxset). Maybe that's the same reason why Earthbound was a single LP as well, because he felt it was "artistically correct" or whatever. (shrug again)

At any rate, these days, it's a moot point, everything is out on the boxsets, DGM Live, etc. You can put together any combination of music you want inside your computer, portable media player, whatever, juggling around the tracks on any number of playlists. I just like to think about this stuff, sometimes, though.

[Halmyre]

How long was a typical live show by King Crimson in those days? Would a start-to-finish show fill four sides of vinyl?

[Trane]

I also like (prefer) the Starless version available in the Great Deceiver boxset, where David Cross had his thing to say, though neither version had the studio version's sonic perfection.

Yes for a double USA live album.

They should have released it as a boxset ......

Not only could and should USA have been a double album, so too should have been ELP In Concert.

I'm also thinking of Genesis Live (and to a lesser extent Earthbound)

[bigjohnwayne]

How long was a typical live show by King Crimson in those days? Would a start-to-finish show fill four sides of vinyl?

That lineup's shows could be pretty short. They weren't always a headliner in those wild and crazy concert packages. (I think that last tour before Red they were playing with Golden Earring and Robin Trower). The Providence show from Grand Deceiver is 90 minutes long. The Central Park show is 74 minutes. Asbury Park is 77 minutes. Some were longer (usually from having The Night Watch, and/or The Great Deceiver and/or Doctor Diamond). Pittsburgh was 95 minutes. Toronto was 90 minutes.

Earlier shows could be longer. Zurich '73 is 100 minutes and Amsterdam could've been close had they not lost the first chunk of the show (presumably Larks 1 and maybe a jam). On record, though, I think the Nightwatch benefits from starting with that super loud and intense version of Easy Money.

[pb2015]

The whole gig is also on The Road To Red. And yes, you're right, at the time, Fripp apparently felt he played badly that particular night. He apparently even mentioned to their manager that he didn't do any future radio or TV broadcasts where he (or presumably, any other band member) would be unable to veto the broadcast. Mind you, I don't think his playing sounds that bad, but ya know what they say about artists being self-critical.

The only bad part I noticed in that gig was a train wreck in "Lark's II," which was edited out of Great Deceiver but can be heard in the other releases (although you'd have to know the piece fairly well to notice).

[Splicer]

I'll take the Asbury Park full concert album over USA anytime, if only for the full version of Easy Money which was criminally faded out early on USA, just before it builds up. The full Asbury Park improv and David Cross's contribution are also a plus.

These were released as a DGM download. I remember finding the extended "Easy Money" less spectacular than it seemed to be headed at the fade-point. "Asbury Park" with the Cross parts just seemed noisy to me and took away from Fripp's fantastic soloing.

[bigjohnwayne]

These were released as a DGM download. I remember finding the extended "Easy Money" less spectacular than it seemed to be headed at the fade-point. "Asbury Park" with the Cross parts just seemed noisy to me and took away from Fripp's fantastic soloing.

A while back there was also that CD "Collectable King Crimson vol 1" that was the Mainz '74 show on one disc and the full Asbury Park on the other.

I have USA as well, and reach for USA more. The Easy Money fadeout or the shortened Asbury Park jam isn't accurate to the show, but might be more accurate to how a good record flows. But, man...the end of the complete Asbury Park jam is incredible.

I like both USA and Asbury Park for different reasons.

King Crimson might be the only band these days when I'm glad to have, say, both USA and the Asbury Park show.

[GuitarGeek]

I'm also thinking of Genesis Live (and to a lesser extent Earthbound)

I know I've asked this question a few times before, but exactly what did Genesis play on the shows that were recorded for Genesis Live, besides the five tracks that made it to the albums? I know they obviously did Supper's Ready, but was there anything else? I always had the understanding there wasn't enough to make a double LP. I know it's been suggested that Charisma didn't have the budget to do a double LP, so there was no chance for that, no matter what. Same reason why the double LP version of VDGG's Pawn Hearts got 86ed.