Ken Burns PBS Documentary Country Music

[progeezer]

There were basically no fans of what we used to call "shitkicker" music when I was growing up as a Jew in NYC in the 50s-early 60s (incl. me), but just like a lot of other cultural phenomena in the good old US of A, back then most NYC residents thought that anything culturally beneficial or worth learning about happened in the 5 boroughs and Long Island, and the universe ended at the Hudson River (see iconic New Yorker magazine cover).

When I moved from NYC to America in 1971, my cultural and musical revelations started happening almost daily and I realized that many people just can't "cross the river".

[Vic2012]

Just heard his 3rd album "Country Willie" (1965). Ok there's a transition here. It's not corny, countrypolitan but a little more rural sounding. On to the 4th album.....

[spellbound]

Anyone know why Burns decided to end the documentary at 1996? The biggest tragedy in country music happened on Oct. 1, 2017 when a domestic terrorist perpetrated the deadliest mass shooting (committed by an individual; only in the US are such tragedies so categorized) in US history by shooting into a crowd of concertgoers at a country music concert, the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival in Las Vegas, Nevada. Of course, the shooting had nothing to do with country music per se, but it was unspeakably horrible for everyone there, and their families. Fifty-eight people were killed, 422 wounded.

Last night I learned that the famous Nudie suits were heavy and hot to wear onstage. Here is the late Gram Parsons' Nudie suit:

[Jerjo]

Watched the episode last night and while it was riveting, I realized now we're getting into the stuff that really makes my blood run cold. 50s, 60s, and 70s country was inescapable when I was growing up and man, did it grate on me. Hearing all those nasal voices, strings, and pedal steel guitars just brought it all back. Oh sure, country did accept Charlie Pride. As a couple of the articles have pointed out, that's where it ended until Darius Rucker. That's a gap of forty years. Country programmers and recording execs were racist, misogynist fucks back then and it didn't let up. They can talk all they want about how stripped down and "rough" Buck Owens music was but to me, it's just a bunch of thin, castrated Telecasters. Yes, there's some singularly good lyrics: "Ode to Billy Joe" is a master class in songwriting, "Harper Valley PTA" is the take-down small town country hypocrisy deserved. But Sturgeon's Law applies double for country in this period. Burns is really cherry picking to find the genius stuff because the majority was simplistic, jingoistic, formulaic bullshit. And sad to say, my wife wants to keep on watching.

A couple of caveats, Johnny Cash was a singular badass motherfucker. And Dolly Parton had the best voice of all of the queens.

[spellbound]

I agree that overall, the period recently covered by Burns is about the worst in country music history. It had its gems, but you are right, Burns had to cherry pick to find them. I still remember hearing 'Ode To Billie Joe' and 'Harper Valley PTA' on radio when I was a kid, but those songs stood out from the country pack of the time. Dolly Parton is not only a great singer, she is a master songwriter. And Cash was always great, but he wasn't always country, especially if country is defined by the Nashville Sound. Had the country rock revolution populated by such bands as the Flying Burrito Brothers, the Byrds, and Poco in the late '60s-early '70s never happened, I would probably have given up on country music altogether. It also didn't hurt that one of my favorite bands, the Grateful Dead, often covered songs by Marty Robbins (El Paso), Johnny Cash (Big River), and Merle Haggard (Mama Tried). Jerry Garcia played the spaciest pedal steel ever.

I like the pedal steel guitar sound, and telecasters can sound impressive in the hands of good pickers (the Hellecasters, for example), but nasal voices and strings (outside a classical symphony orchestra) do nothing for me. These days, nasal voices are ruining pop music, as well.

[JJ88]

I never really thought there was much difference in Dolly Parton's earlier 70s hits and the rock-approved 'singer songwriters'. And of course the link to country in the early Sun Records 'rock n roll' is very obvious.

Just heard his second album......"Here's Willie Nelson." (1963). It's more of the same. It's country for fans of people named Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett.

I like it. WTF.

He did covers of the same sort of material they did later. But of course early on Nelson wrote various 'standards' of his own- 'Funny How Time Slips Away', 'Crazy' etc.

[hippypants]

Last night I learned that the famous Nudie suits were heavy and hot to wear onstage. Here is the late Gram Parsons' Nudie suit:

I remember seeing the Porter Wagner show many years ago, and he used to wear a Nudie suit, which I thought was the loudest, garish clothes ever, and wondered why?? I found out many years later.

The same thing sort of applies to the Hee-Haw program. A lot of the performers were good, but I always thought their behavior was goofy, sort of acting stupid for stupid sake. I get some of that now, not that it's any more tolerable.

They can talk all they want about how stripped down and "rough" Buck Owens music was but to me, it's just a bunch of thin, castrated Telecasters. I felt the same way about them talking about how poetic Merle Haggard's lyrics were. Different strokes I guess.

[Jerjo]

I should say, I have nothing against Telecasters. In the right hands, they are divine. I have a lot of fave artists who played Teles.

[3LockBox]

Hee Haw was an abomination. My parents watched it. I hated it. Some Southerners would always complain that the rest of the country think they were stupid but then keep garbage like Hee Haw in business.

[GuitarGeek]

Where's Guitargeek,.

You rang, Mr. Addams?

Oh sure, country did accept Charlie Pride. As a couple of the articles have pointed out, that's where it ended until Darius Rucker. That's a gap of forty years.

Not true. While there appears to not have been as many black country performers, as white performers, there were some who were successful, notably DeFord Bailey (who was one of the first performers on the Grand Ole Opry, predating Charlie Pride by about 3 and a half decades), Stoney Edwards, Dobie Gray, and Linda Martell. And I'm sure there were others in that

Country programmers and recording execs were racist, misogynist fucks back then

Not just in country music. The entire American music industry was heavily racist back then, and maybe still is. It's a known fact that RCA didn't let on that Charlie Pride wasn't white until he started touring, but there were R&B and soul oriented labels that did the same thing with their white performers, e.g. Motown didn't put Teena Marie's picture on the cover of her first album. Same thing was done with the first couple KC And The Sunshine Band records (Harry Casey's sister claims she once heard a couple black guys in a Burger King debating whether he was white or black, after his first couple hits took off).


I remember Doug Walker, who was the leader of the psych/improv/electronic rock group Alien Planetscapes, once told me that a record company guy once told him that "Nobody's going to buy black people from Brooklyn playing art rock".

I still maintain part of the reason Thin Lizzy didn't breakthrough Stateside was a matter of race. Yeah, you could say it was the drugs, it was the band having to cancel an important early US tour, but I'm sure Phil Lynott's ethnicity played into it too.

Oh, and don't forget how MTV didn't play black artists in the early days, because they wanted to cater to the "white suburban audience".

the Grateful Dead, often covered songs by Marty Robbins (El Paso), Johnny Cash (Big River), and Merle Haggard (Mama Tried). Jerry Garcia played the spaciest pedal steel ever.

Typically, I find the Dead's country covers to be...uh, a bit unimpressive. I always thought it odd that Johnny's own version of Big River rocked harder than the Dead's (when the Dead were supposedly a "rock group", yet they seemed to be trying to render it as a more traditional country song than Johnny's reading). It always drove me crazy how much time they spent onstage basically being a barely competent bar band. Jerry was the only guy in the band who had any competency with that style of music, via his Bakersfield approved guitar licks.

Hee Haw was an abomination. My parents watched it. I hated it. Some Southerners would always complain that the rest of the country think they were stupid but then keep garbage like Hee Haw in business.

Well, they interviewed the musical director of the show on tonight's episode, and he said he felt the reason it worked was because "We were making fun of ourselves, but when it came to the music, it was deadly serious".

But yheah, I never cared for that sort of redneck comedy thing that all those country TV shows seemed to have. Burns makes it sound like Johnny Cash, Glen Campbell, and Hee-Haw were the only country shows on, but there were actually a few others, including the Porter Wagoner Show, and later on, Pop Goes The Country (did you know Anson "Potsie from Happy Days" Williams has a singing career?) and That Nashville Music. Porter Wagoner was good because he often times let his band play instrumentals, but agian you've got the lame humor thing.

I have the same problem with that Leroy Troy character that Marty Stuart insists on having on his show every week. Dude, stop perpetuating the stereotypes!

For me, the best thing about most country music is (SURPRISE!!!) the guitar playing. From Mother Maybelle Carter to James Burton to Don Rich and beyond, the guitarwork is usually what I'm here for. But then, with a screen name like mine, you probably already suspected that. Having said that, there are some songs I genuinely like just as songs, like Funny How Time Slips Away, Harper Valley PTA (you ever hear Terje Rypdal's ex-wife version of the song, Fru Johnson?), and most of the songs on Johnny Cash's At San Quentin and Folsom Prison albums.

I have to say, watching this show (which actually the only episode I've seen, I missed the first five), gave me a certain amount of respect for Kris Kristofferson, who I mostly only know as the guy who wrote Me And Bobby McGee and the star of the mildly entertaining movie Convoy. I'm actually curious to check out some of his records now. And it was kinda funny watching Carlene Carter (the former Mrs. Nick Lowe) talk about how her grandmother thought One Toke Over The Line was a "gospel song" (didn't Lawrence Welk make the same error in judgement?).

[3LockBox]

^ having grown up in the south I'm familiar with the other TV "variety" shows in the country genre that you mentioned, including a shitload you didn't. Hell, Bobby Goldsboro and Donna Fargo and a host of 3rd tier country artists had syndicated shows at one time or another. And they all sucked. I actually hated the Porter Wagoner Show. I thought the dude's voice was terrible. My grandmother had his earlier albums (pre-Dolly) and I remember them being cringeworthy. His voice didn't age well at all. Even when Dolly was on his show you had to put up with the idiotic Speck Rhodes character.

[hippypants]

[spellbound]

Typically, I find the Dead's country covers to be...uh, a bit unimpressive. I always thought it odd that Johnny's own version of Big River rocked harder than the Dead's (when the Dead were supposedly a "rock group", yet they seemed to be trying to render it as a more traditional country song than Johnny's reading). It always drove me crazy how much time they spent onstage basically being a barely competent bar band. Jerry was the only guy in the band who had any competency with that style of music, via his Bakersfield approved guitar licks.

I always thought that since Weir sang lead on El Paso and Big River, that it was he who suggested those songs as part of the Dead's repertoire. Can you shed any light on how the band chose its cover tunes, particularly the country ones? I've read many books about the Grateful Dead, but it's been a while and I don't recall any discussion of this. I only remember that in their early days they usually stuck to their own compositions or to songs in the public domain, probably to save money.

I have the same problem with that Leroy Troy character that Marty Stuart insists on having on his show every week. Dude, stop perpetuating the stereotypes!

I didn't know Marty had a TV show. The things you don't hear about when you don't have cable TV.

I never cared for that sort of redneck comedy thing that all those country TV shows seemed to have. Burns makes it sound like Johnny Cash, Glen Campbell, and Hee-Haw were the only country shows on, but there were actually a few others, including the Porter Wagoner Show, and later on, Pop Goes The Country (did you know Anson "Potsie from Happy Days" Williams has a singing career?) and That Nashville Music. Porter Wagoner was good because he often times let his band play instrumentals, but agian you've got the lame humor thing.

I wonder how much the early "redneck humor" of those shows influenced the redneck comedy of Jeff Foxworthy, Bill Engvall, Ron White, and Larry the Cable Guy in the early 2000s. It seems to be waning in popularity now, but maybe it just got old for me. I admit to laughing at some of their jokes at the time, though. Less corny and more wordy than Hee Haw, but rednecks were still the target.

I enjoyed the section of Burns' show last night about Kris Kristofferson. Hell of a songwriter. He has been in better movies than 'Convoy.' For example, 'Lone Star' and 'Pat Garrett And Billy The Kid.' I know Burns couldn't cover everyone's favorites, but a two hour country music show for the time period 1968-1972 without one mention of the late, great Doug Sahm? At least they briefly covered country rock and the Byrds and Gram Parsons and the 'Sweetheart of the Rodeo' album.

Some pedal steel players I like:

Jerry Garcia (Grateful Dead)
Buddy Cage (New Riders Of The Purple Sage)
Al Perkins (Manassas)
Robert Randolph (Robert Randolph and the Family Band)
Jeff Baxter (Steely Dan)
Glenn Ross Campbell (The Misunderstood)
Sneaky Pete Kleinow (Flying Burrito Brothers)
Greg Leisz (Bill Frisell)
Red Rhodes (Michael Nesmith and the First National Band)
Rusty Young (Poco)
Bill Elm (Friends Of Dean Martinez)

Most of them are not straight country artists.

[GuitarGeek]

^ having grown up in the south I'm familiar with the other TV "variety" shows in the country genre that you mentioned, including a shitload you didn't. Hell, Bobby Goldsboro and Donna Fargo and a host of 3rd tier country artists had syndicated shows at one time or another. And they all sucked. I actually hated the Porter Wagoner Show. I thought the dude's voice was terrible. My grandmother had his earlier albums (pre-Dolly) and I remember them being cringeworthy. His voice didn't age well at all. Even when Dolly was on his show you had to put up with the idiotic Speck Rhodes character.

I didn't know about any of those. The ones I actually really remember from the time are Hee-Haw, Pop Goes The Country (though seeing reruns of it now, I don't remember actually watching it), and The Porter Wagoner Show. I only know about That Nashville Music because they're showing it on the RFD channel now. I gather there were a whole slew of those shows that aired in syndication, and I guess where we lived at the time (Ft Leonard Wood Missouri, though I'm not actually sure where the TV stations we got originated from), we only got those handful of shows. And when we moved to Cleveland in 1980, I think th eonly one we still got in our area was Hee-Haw.

I agree about Speck Rhodes. As I said in my previous post, I'm not crazy about the corn pone humor. I guess they view what they were doing as being "entertainment", and not just music, or maybe it's tied to some sort of vaudeville related roots. I dunno, I don't get it. That's why like something like Pop Goes The Country and That Nashville Music.

Of course, the best of all shows was Austin City Limits, though of course, it wasn't strictly "country" music. They had a little bit of everything on that show, country, blues, folk, they even had Eric Johnson before he even had a record out (and they've had him on several times since). And they had everyone doing more than just one or two songs, and since it was PBS, if someone wanted to stretch out with a guitar solo or whatever, it was no problem, you didn't have to worry where the commercial breaks were gonna be. I don't watch ACL much anymore, because they have way too much "modern" rock music and they've sort of changed the format of the show, ditching the old theme song, and taping the show in an actual concert hall (they used to tape it in what was obviously a TV studio, and I actually kinda like that vibe better), so to me it feels like a completely different show.

I always thought that since Weir sang lead on El Paso and Big River, that it was he who suggested those songs as part of the Dead's repertoire. Can you shed any light on how the band chose its cover tunes, particularly the country ones?

I would assume you're correct about each band member choosing the respective songs that he (or in the case of You're Not Woman Enough, she) sang. Beyond that, I couldn't tell you what the logic was. I suspect Jerry must have had some affection for that music, because as I said, it seems like he had the ability to conjure the appropriate twangy guitar stylings when those songs came up. It's just frustrating when I think of all the great original songs that were rarely performed for whichever reason. When you got songs like Box Of Rain and Ripples at your disposal, it doesn't make sense to me that you'd not do them all the time (well, in the case of Box Of Rain, you had the lead vocalist basically not singing for many years, and even when he was singing, I imagine the emotional associations he had with the song might have made Phil not want to sing it too often).

I didn't know Marty had a TV show. The things you don't hear about when you don't have cable TV.

The show actually started in 2008, though Wikipedia says "no new episodes have been produced recently". I actually kinda already knew that, because the shows I've been seeing lately all have copyright dates of around 2013. It's really cool, he usually does a couple of his own songs, a couple with that week's guest, his wife Connie Smith does a song, then there's the Leroy Troy segment (which as I said I could live without), and a gospel song. And sometimes, Marty gives a brief lecture about some aspect of the history of country music, etc. I like to tune in just to see him playing Clarence White's Telecaster (which Clarence's widow gave to him, he also has Pops Staples' Tele, which he's also occasionally played on the gospel segment). There's a bunch of videos (including a few complete episodes) on Youtube, if you care to take a look.

I wonder how much the early "redneck humor" of those shows influenced the redneck comedy of Jeff Foxworthy, Bill Engvall, Ron White, and Larry the Cable Guy in the early 2000s. It seems to be waning in popularity now, but maybe it just got old for me. I admit to laughing at some of their jokes at the time, though. Less corny and more wordy than Hee Haw, but rednecks were still the target.

I suspect a lot of those later guys were probably more influenced by Jim Varney, who was sort of the missing link between the two groups, but I'm sure they all had to have been aware of the earlier performers like Minnie Pearl, Archie Campbell, The Hager Twins, and Junior Samples. As long as Hee-Haw was on the air, each of those later guys must have seen at least a little bit of it.

And no, I don't know all those names off the top of my head. Apart from Minnie Pearl and Junior Samples, I had to get the other names off Wikipedia.

Sneaky Pete Kleinow (Flying Burrito Brothers)

Sneaky Pete played on the Frank Zappa song It Just Might Be A One Shot Deal. How's that for taking the pedal steel outside the country genre?

But you know what I find astounding about Sneaky Pete? One day, I was watching a rerun of Davey And Goliath, yeah, the stop motion animation show from the 60's, with the boy and his anthropomorphic dog. So, I'm watching it, and in the closing credits, I see hte name "Peter Kleinow". My jaw DROPPED! I thought, "How many men named Peter Kleinow could there be in the world?!". So I went to Wikipedia, looked it up, and found out that before he was in the The Flying Burrito Brothers, Sneaky Pete did indeed work as an animator, working on both Davey And Goliath and Gumby. He apparently also worked, uncredited, on The Outer Limits (possibly he was involved in bringing The Zanti Misfits to life?).

Funny thing about pedal steel: I guess like a lot of people, early on, I associated the instrument with country music. Then when we got cable TV, I remember seeing the video for Lunatic Fringe by Red Rider on MTV, and there again, I was dumbfounded to see a rock group with a pedal steel player!!!! That just blew my 9 year old mind!!! Then after that I learned of Steve Howe's use of both pedal and lap steels and such, as well as other rock oriented guitarists using the instruments.

I guess tonight's show, they're gonna cover the 70's, which is an era I'm less interested in. The 70's and 80's was where the likes of Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton rose to popularity. Not bad music, as such, but I don't really consider them "country music". To me that's more like middle of the road pop music. I remember bringing this up in an earlier discussion of country music here, and someone brought up Ronnie Milsap, I think, as another singer who is sort of lumped in as "country", but really apart from the Southern accent in his voice, there's nothing really "country" about his music.

(and anyway, the best song Kenny Rogers ever sang in his life was I Just Dropped In To See What Condition My Condition Was In)

I hope that when they get up to the 90's, they cover people like Junior Brown and others who are bringing back the rootsier country sounds. I remember reading an article on Brown, that started with him saying people always tell him, "I don't usually like country music, but I like your country music" and he said he always responds, "Well, maybe that's because you've never heard real country music". I'm sick to death of what I like to think of as fake country music. The restaurant I work at frequently plays that nonsense over the PA...I couldn't tell you who the singers, but here's a few of the refrains I keep hearing:

"God is great/Beer is good/And People are crazy"
"You used to call me crazy/But now that I'm on my way/How do you like me now"
"All my friends say/I started doing doubles/The minute you walked in the door"

And so on. There's also this horrendous version of Another Piece Of My Heart (yes the song sung by Etta James and Janis Joplin) sung by some bimbo who clearly has no idea what the lyrics are about.

I know we went through a phase when I was regularly hearing Ferlin Huskey and a few other old timers, but lately it's all this post-90's dreck, mixed with lots of pop music that no sane person would ever CHOOSE to listen to. BLECH!

[saucyjackstl]

<QUOTE>Some pedal steel players I like:

Jerry Garcia (Grateful Dead)
Buddy Cage (New Riders Of The Purple Sage)
Al Perkins (Manassas)
Robert Randolph (Robert Randolph and the Family Band)
Jeff Baxter (Steely Dan)
Glenn Ross Campbell (The Misunderstood)
Sneaky Pete Kleinow (Flying Burrito Brothers)
Greg Leisz (Bill Frisell)
Red Rhodes (Michael Nesmith and the First National Band)
Rusty Young (Poco)
Bill Elm (Friends Of Dean Martinez)</QUOTE>

Can't list any pedal steel players without including Ben Keith who played with Neil Young, Emmylou Harris and many others. He was something special GRHS.

[progmatist]

I should say, I have nothing against Telecasters. In the right hands, they are divine. I have a lot of fave artists who played Teles.

Played through an appropriate amp with the appropriate settings, the Tele is a fantastic sounding guitar. If ever there was a basic workhorse guitar, the Tele would be it.

[GuitarGeek]

Oh and if we're talking about great pedal steel players, you also have to include Buddy Emmons, Speedy West , Shot Jackson and Paul Franklin.

[spellbound]

I did leave a few great pedal steel players off my list. And I own albums they play on. I've even seen Steve Howe play steel. Sorry. My brain is full.

There's a bunch of videos (including a few complete episodes) on Youtube, if you care to take a look.

I'll do that some time, thanks. I knew Stuart owned those two guitars you mentioned.

But you know what I find astounding about Sneaky Pete? One day, I was watching a rerun of Davey And Goliath, yeah, the stop motion animation show from the 60's, with the boy and his anthropomorphic dog. So, I'm watching it, and in the closing credits, I see hte name "Peter Kleinow". My jaw DROPPED! I thought, "How many men named Peter Kleinow could there be in the world?!". So I went to Wikipedia, looked it up, and found out that before he was in the The Flying Burrito Brothers, Sneaky Pete did indeed work as an animator, working on both Davey And Goliath and Gumby. He apparently also worked, uncredited, on The Outer Limits (possibly he was involved in bringing The Zanti Misfits to life?).

That's cool. I didn't know about that.

the best song Kenny Rogers ever sang in his life was I Just Dropped In To See What Condition My Condition Was In

I agree.

I hope that when they get up to the 90's, they cover people like Junior Brown and others who are bringing back the rootsier country sounds.

That would be great. Junior Brown and BR-549 are favorites of mine.

There's also this horrendous version of Another Piece Of My Heart (yes the song sung by Etta James and Janis Joplin) sung by some bimbo who clearly has no idea what the lyrics are about.

Thankfully, I have not heard that version.

[spellbound]

I guess tonight's show, they're gonna cover the 70's, which is an era I'm less interested in. The 70's and 80's was where the likes of Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton rose to popularity. Not bad music, as such, but I don't really consider them "country music". To me that's more like middle of the road pop music.

Even worse, tonight the program will feature Hank Williams, Jr., an apple that fell far from the tree.

[ronmac]

Even worse, tonight the program will feature Hank Williams, Jr., an apple that fell far from the tree.

Gag.

I'll say this, Hank Sr.'s granddaughter is smokin' hot.

[GuitarGeek]

Even worse, tonight the program will feature Hank Williams, Jr., an apple that fell far from the tree.

Yeah, no kidding. I remember the first time Hank III played in Cleveland, the local circular described him as "not as innovative as his grandfather, but also not as embarrassing as his father".

[spellbound]

^that about sums up the family.

[saucyjackstl]

If you skipped last night, you missed out on the parts on Townes Van Zandt. I'll watch anything that plays Poncho and Lefty (although Tecumseh Valley is my favorite by him).

[spellbound]

After learning that Hank Jr. fell down a mountain and broke every bone in his face and had to have it reconstructed, I feel bad about dissing him.

I liked when someone asked Townes after a show, why he didn't play some happier songs, he said, "Those were the happy ones."

[Jerjo]

When Hank Williams III first surfaced, the Williams family tried to deny his legitimacy or some such nonsense. I do remember that Hank III met Minnie Pearl and she said, "Lord honey, you're a ghost." That kinda ended that controversy.

We watched finished episode 3 last night and watched most of episode 4. Bill Monroe was a fourteen carat asshole but boy, he could play.