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Thread: Lamb Lies Down on Broadway remix, and also: Bootlegs

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    Member bigjohnwayne's Avatar
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    Lamb Lies Down on Broadway remix, and also: Bootlegs

    Hello!

    Basically the only Genesis album I still reach for consistently is the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Why? It seems a bit tougher than the stuff before or after, while retaining the richness of the rest of their 70-77 output. I also like how its a bizarre modernist journey of self discovery story. It is too opaque to be embarrassing, I guess.

    I think the New Yorker called it "The Ulysses of Concept Albums" which is true, I think.

    A couple questions:

    1. Is the remix from a decade ago available without buying the whole box set?

    1a. Is it good? Does it provide an interesting new perspective on the music?


    2. What are the best live versions? I have West Palm Beach, Providence, and the incomplete Empire Pool one. Is there a version of the Shrine show without the late 90s vocal overdubs?

    2a. Does anyone have a reasoned, nuanced opinion on the overdubbed Shrine show from Genesis Archive #1? (By that I mean not "Argh the overdubs ruined it grrr It is awful.")

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjohnwayne View Post
    Hello!

    Basically the only Genesis album I still reach for consistently is the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Why? It seems a bit tougher than the stuff before or after, while retaining the richness of the rest of their 70-77 output. I also like how its a bizarre modernist journey of self discovery story. It is too opaque to be embarrassing, I guess.

    I think the New Yorker called it "The Ulysses of Concept Albums" which is true, I think.

    A couple questions:

    1. Is the remix from a decade ago available without buying the whole box set?

    1a. Is it good? Does it provide an interesting new perspective on the music?


    2. What are the best live versions? I have West Palm Beach, Providence, and the incomplete Empire Pool one. Is there a version of the Shrine show without the late 90s vocal overdubs?

    2a. Does anyone have a reasoned, nuanced opinion on the overdubbed Shrine show from Genesis Archive #1? (By that I mean not "Argh the overdubs ruined it grrr It is awful.")

    The Shrine show is on Wolfgangs Vault... My computer skills are terrible but I'm sure it is available elsewhere for download by some clever folks.

    I do like the 5.1, anything Lamb kills!... well almost anything Lamb see below.

    Regarding the Lamb overdubs, agreed... terrible, embarrassing frankly! I can't believe they did them, sat in a room and said that's great lets release this. It's a horrible... unless you need cocktail coasters!

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    I've heard the same ones. I'd hope that Wembley 1975 show exists in full multi-track form. A very strong performance.

    The bulk of the Liverpool show exists in excellent soundboard quality, save for the beginning of 'The Lamb...' and 'Lilywhite Lilith'. And at least both of those didn't change very much from night-to-night. Has the novelty of a by-then fairly rare performance of 'The Knife' as the encore.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigjohnwayne View Post
    Does anyone have a reasoned, nuanced opinion on the overdubbed Shrine show from Genesis Archive #1? (By that I mean not "Argh the overdubs ruined it grrr It is awful.")
    Sorry but this is not possible. The overdubs did ruin it. Is it only 'reasoned' and 'nuanced' if you don't think this? I remember being utterly horrified when I first heard it. I think otherwise that would have been one of the best box sets ever released. I suppose Gabriel has improved as a singer on a technical level but as a result, it's not remotely true to what he sounded like 1975. His voice is deeper and grainier.

    'It' received quite a powerful performance on the Shrine show, which you wouldn't know from what they released on Archive. And the two encore songs are blistering performances IMHO.
    Last edited by JJ88; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:23 AM.

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    I will try a nuanced opinion of the overdubbed show: how they thought this could be a good idea is beyond me but then I didn't notice them when the boxset came out. I'm much more musically educated now and they jump out at me but it just goes to show that many people must have bought the boxset completely ignoring how much this show was tampered with.
    On the plus side though, being mixed from multitracks, this is far and away the best sounding live Lamb you'll ever get. Even the Wolfgang's Vault show is just a soundboard recording. Add to that the fact that Peter would never have allowed its release without the overdubs.
    However, I think all this overdubbing (don't forget Hackett's acoustic guitar on Hairless Heart) was done at the expense of any kind of authenticity.
    Not just a Genesis fanboy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeFrog View Post
    I will try a nuanced opinion of the overdubbed show: how they thought this could be a good idea is beyond me but then I didn't notice them when the boxset came out. I'm much more musically educated now and they jump out at me but it just goes to show that many people must have bought the boxset completely ignoring how much this show was tampered with.
    I definitely did! I was under the mistaken impression it was only done in parts.

    I'm not sure who did the mix for the six tracks which were broadcast on radio at the time but I like the sound of those.

    http://radioguide.genesis-movement.o...html#x-24jan75

    As for the remix, I'm not a fan of the stereo remixes but I quite like the DVD that was with the original 1970-5 box set release, because it has the original stage-show slides accompanying the music and occasional bits of 8mm live footage. They did a nice job with that.

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    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Here's a description of a 9 CD Box of the Lamb I recently purchased:

    This is not a complilation of previously available Headly Grange rehearsals. It's a new 5 CD set that surfaced a few years ago. Before that there had already been the Tape 17 rehearsals that had appeared on In the Beginnings Volume 7 and 8 (These included the previously available rehearsals that had appeared on The Lamb Descends on Waterbury) and on In The Beginnings Volume 6). On top of that there are some studio outtakes on ITB volumes 1-3. Someone asked what these are. They are tapes from the writing session for the album that took place at Headley Grange. Phil Collins usually turns up first which is why the day starts with a drum solo. At other times the early birds jam on cover versions. We think the person singing on Heart of Stone may be a roadie.

    CD 6&7 - January 11 1975 - Lakeland Civic Center Condert Hall, Lakeland FL. CD 8&9 April 19, 1975 Empire Theater, Liverpool, UK. DVD - a perfect reconstruction of the exploisive live show.

    The jamming stuff I referred to where unreleased short instrumental tracks from the Headley Grange sessions. The DVD is highly dodgy with lots of still photos interspered with short clips of live footage. It's done with love so it's still semi-interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjohnwayne View Post

    A couple questions:

    1. Is the remix from a decade ago available without buying the whole box set?

    1a. Is it good? Does it provide an interesting new perspective on the music?

    1. I don't know definitively, but I constantly read on here how much of an outrage it is that only the Nick Davies remixes are now available if you want to buy a Genesis album new. So I'm guessing if you buy it new, you'll be getting the remix (although presumably not the 5.1 mix).

    1a. There are a couple of bits that are noticeably different...whether they're good or not is subjective of course. I think on the whole I prefer the original mix if this particular album...not always the case with the Genesis remixes.

    As for best live versions...I'll leave that to the bootleg experts

  10. #10
    You MUST Get the European Spring 1975 shows. They are amazing. Hackett is on fire.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    Here's a description of a 9 CD Box of the Lamb I recently purchased:

    This is not a complilation of previously available Headly Grange rehearsals. It's a new 5 CD set that surfaced a few years ago. Before that there had already been the Tape 17 rehearsals that had appeared on In the Beginnings Volume 7 and 8 (These included the previously available rehearsals that had appeared on The Lamb Descends on Waterbury) and on In The Beginnings Volume 6). On top of that there are some studio outtakes on ITB volumes 1-3. Someone asked what these are. They are tapes from the writing session for the album that took place at Headley Grange. Phil Collins usually turns up first which is why the day starts with a drum solo. At other times the early birds jam on cover versions. We think the person singing on Heart of Stone may be a roadie.

    CD 6&7 - January 11 1975 - Lakeland Civic Center Condert Hall, Lakeland FL. CD 8&9 April 19, 1975 Empire Theater, Liverpool, UK. DVD - a perfect reconstruction of the exploisive live show.

    The jamming stuff I referred to where unreleased short instrumental tracks from the Headley Grange sessions. The DVD is highly dodgy with lots of still photos interspered with short clips of live footage. It's done with love so it's still semi-interesting.
    This sounds interesting would you mind sharing where you picked this up from? I saw this amazing show 2x in NY and until this day I'm still intrigued by anything Lamb related!

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    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    Find the Groningen Show '75 - big sound audience recording - might be a band recording with stage open mics - but its a killer show - and the sound is fantastic -

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    Listening to that undubbed Shrine show, I can see why Gabriel would feel the need to fill in certain lyrical flubs (there's a big one on 'Carpet Crawlers') or whatever, and I could have lived with that level of overdubbing. But IMHO he re-recorded way too much, considering how much his voice has changed. Whatever Hackett did doesn't bother me quite so much.

    I get the feeling, based on what is out there, the Wembley show may have been a better performance than this Shrine one. They were certainly taking more chances with The Lamb..., as they'd been playing it for several months by then. 'The Waiting Room' is like a completely different track in that show.

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    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator1634 View Post
    This sounds interesting would you mind sharing where you picked this up from? I saw this amazing show 2x in NY and until this day I'm still intrigued by anything Lamb related!
    N.P. I think it was Discogs.
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  15. #15
    I always turn to Genesis Movement for my live concert information:
    https://www.genesis-movement.org/
    The live recordings database has a comprehensive list of "Lamb" shows, and what is available.
    The interactive section has torrents that might interest you.

  16. #16
    The April 19th, 1975 Liverpool date. As JJ mentioned, there are some missing parts yet worth it for what I often say is the definitive version of "The Waiting Room".


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  17. #17
    The 2-ch studio album remix is certainly available on its own, not sure about the multi-ch. I never found the overdubs on the Shrine show release to be THAT bothersome (there are overdubs on all/most of the genesis official live albums). To me, sound quality is most important and I don't care how many boots 'claim' A+ sound quality, none of them actually do (and I have listened to most of them). The only one that at least approaches an exception is the TM Productions version of the Empire Pool show. That show was much later in the Lamb tour and the band had become much more accomplished at preforming it live. The Waiting Room is much longer, but of course it is only half of the full show. I would have loved to have seen an official release of the full show ….. oh well.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck AzEee! View Post
    The April 19th, 1975 Liverpool date. As JJ mentioned, there are some missing parts yet worth it for what I often say is the definitive version of "The Waiting Room".


    Charles

    this is great. there are at least 2 of these comps:

    :50 minute Waiting Room

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WluTJ-Zxg_8

    the venues in correctical order
    1.Groningen
    2.Dortmund
    3.Los Angeles
    4.Wembley Pool
    5,Liverpool
    6 Phoenix
    2trevorsforlife

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    N.P. I think it was Discogs.
    Does this help if we don't know the title of the set? If so, I'm missing something.

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    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Does this help if we don't know the title of the set? If so, I'm missing something.
    LOL - I took the time to type out the description but didn't mention the title. Genesis Broadway Melody of 1974 and 1975. A 9 CD and 1 DVD Limited Deluxe Edition (2019).
    Last edited by mozo-pg; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:31 PM.
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    I know you mentioned Providence. I believe that there are two shows. I am a big fan of the Lampinski recording of the Providence show:

    https://www.genesis-movement.org/php...s.php?uid=5302
    Last edited by pbs1902; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:37 PM.

  22. #22
    I had no clue about the overdubs when I bought the thing, and honestly didn't notice them that much on the first couple listens. It wasn't until a couple years later that I learned just how extensive they were (Tony does mention them in the booklet, but give no indication of how much overdubbing they actually did). Now when I listen to it it is much more obvious to me, especially since I've heard some boots (I hadn't heard any boots back when it came out). The funny thing is, I had a boot of the Rainbow show back then that I was very familiar with, and it did bother me to hear the couple of places where Peter had overdubbed on those recordings for that archive box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    I had no clue about the overdubs when I bought the thing, and honestly didn't notice them that much on the first couple listens. It wasn't until a couple years later that I learned just how extensive they were (Tony does mention them in the booklet, but give no indication of how much overdubbing they actually did). Now when I listen to it it is much more obvious to me, especially since I've heard some boots.
    That's pretty much my experience as well.
    Internet has given us much more insight on the music we love with access to all those bootlegs, and I've even seen a precise list of what sections have been overdubbed or not on the Archive Lamb recording.
    There was clearly less criticism of that release back what all that info wasn't available, and in a way I miss those days. I'm sure that if we had a detailed description of how much fixing was done to a classic like Seconds Out we'd be appalled.
    Not just a Genesis fanboy.

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    I noticed how much had been done to that box on my very first listen, simply because Gabriel's voice is so different. It's not about being anti- overdubs per se. I don't really care that much about whatever Hackett did.
    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    The funny thing is, I had a boot of the Rainbow show back then that I was very familiar with, and it did bother me to hear the couple of places where Peter had overdubbed on those recordings for that archive box.
    Yeah, that is really awful- some of the early parts of 'Supper's Ready', it stands out like a sore thumb. I'd heard the Rainbow show before the box so it was even more obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
    The only one that at least approaches an exception is the TM Productions version of the Empire Pool show. That show was much later in the Lamb tour and the band had become much more accomplished at preforming it live. The Waiting Room is much longer, but of course it is only half of the full show. I would have loved to have seen an official release of the full show ….. oh well.
    Well, based on what is out there, I think the Wembley show was simply a better performance than the Shrine one. Wembley is the only other multi-track of this tour- all the others are soundboard or amateur audience sources, so are nowhere near as good in quality. It is not clear whether or not the full show exists.
    Last edited by JJ88; 1 Week Ago at 11:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I noticed how much had been done to that box on my very first listen, simply because Gabriel's voice is so different. It's not about being anti- overdubs per se. I don't really care that much about whatever Hackett did.

    Yeah, that is really awful- some of the early parts of 'Supper's Ready', it stands out like a sore thumb. I'd heard the Rainbow show before the box so it was even more obvious.


    Well, based on what is out there, I think the Wembley show was simply a better performance than the Shrine one. Wembley is the only other multi-track of this tour- all the others are soundboard or amateur audience sources, so are nowhere near as good in quality. It is not clear whether or not the full show exists.
    My only issue with the later shows is the speed they played some of those songs - just too fast - and you can feel them trying to keep up with it. Otherwise simply amazing stuff.

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