Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 218

Thread: The Future of Progressive Rock

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post
    You guys start to see Svetonios and Skullheads everywhere.
    See successor to 'Progwoman', named 'waren'. Sheer creative brilliance. He just keeps going.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  2. #102
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Barcelona
    Posts
    402
    Perhaps it's a fatal attraction of this forum, which just cannot be ditched.

    Svetonio and Skullhead keep returning here just like Harey would get back to Kelvin each time after he tried to eliminate her.

    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 07-14-2019 at 05:30 AM.

  3. #103
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    6,091
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Svetty? Is that you?
    Of course, a virtual sexchange will not hide away a severe case of acute Svetonitis

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post
    You guys start to see Svetonios and Skullheads everywhere.
    Don't know about SH, but Svetitties for sure

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post
    Perhaps it's a fatal attraction of this forum, which just cannot be ditched.

    Svetonio and Skullhead keep returning here just like Harey would get back to Kelvin each time after he tried to eliminate her.

    they'd probably fight about who would be the male in this love story, but Svety lost it because of his latest incarnation.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  4. #104
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Barcelona
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    they'd probably fight about who would be the male in this love story, but Svety lost it because of his latest incarnation.
    I am afraid it's not a typical love story. Just look around, we are no longer able to discuss a subject of the utmost importance, the future of progressive rock, and instead we waste precious energy on chasing the spectres of long gone members!

    Like on board of the spaceship orbiting Solaris the ever-returning virtual simulacra of the banned members will keep haunting PE's crew, driving us all insane and suspicious of one another.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(novel)

    A full scale witch-hunt will inevitably ensue and the virtual guillotine will work incessantly until all imaginary and real Skullheads and Svetonios get purged. And in the final chapter I can imagine an estranged moderator banning one of the last remaining members, Scrotum, after he starts pasting repeatedly and randomly videos of Radomir Točak.



    We're all doomed!
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 07-14-2019 at 03:16 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post



    We're all doomed!
    And yet he rejected an icewet hug from good ol' progwoman:

    A52801a8.jpg
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  6. #106
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    San Diego California
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by mnprogger View Post
    Kanye West, Kendrick Lamar and Kamasi Washington have come across to me as incredibly nauseating, and I have found other similar-but-more-enjoyable artists to use my time with to listen to.

    i.e. Them and their repulsive hipster vibe that their music unavoidably includes pretty much kills any reason for me to listen to it.

    Besides, Kendrick Lamar when he was relatively unknown, was on Mayer Hawthorne's album Where Does This Door Go and failed to return the favor having Mayer guest on his album. All the lemmings that drooled over every record he's released since never went and did their research by checking out Mayer.

    Bruno Mars
    Janelle Monae
    Mayer Hawthorne

    all 3 of those artists came up around the same time, Bruno Mars and Janelle have found large levels of success and notoriety, and yet Mayer happens to be the odd one out. Not that it really is his job/fault, but I still look down upon Kendrick Lamar for blowing-up since, when Mayer in some ways helped him out and really hasn't reaped any reward from it.
    If this is the future of progressive rock, then it is quite successful. But then maybe a definitive definition of the genre is in order?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Purple_Camel View Post
    But then maybe a definitive definition of the genre is in order?
    Nah. Those are dumb.

    The non-definitive, often imaginary, definitions folks make up here are waaaaaaaay better.

  8. #108
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    The Planet Lovetron
    Posts
    13,023
    Quote Originally Posted by Purple_Camel View Post
    If this is the future of progressive rock, then it is quite successful. But then maybe a definitive definition of the genre is in order?
    Not a new definition, a new name.

    How about "Remora Rock"? Or maybe "The Borg Collective"?

  9. #109
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nothern Virginia, USA
    Posts
    3,022
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Incredibly nauseating? Kamasi Washington is in a completely different league than Kanye and Kendrick. He actually makes (and plays) full-on jazz, unlike the other two. He has also assembled a killer band. Kamasi Washington is one of my favorite contemporary artists -- his album Heaven & Earth is possibly my favorite release of 2018. If that makes me a lemming, so be it. I don't care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Holm-Lupo View Post
    Well, I think Kamasi, like pretty much anything else we discuss here, can be pretty polarizing. Personally I find him utterly overrated - his music is not really jazz at all, but pop dressed up as jazz, a sort of millennial smooth jazz, and his saxophone playing leaves quite a bit to be desired in the creativity department. The best I can say about him is that he hopefully brings some young folks back to the sources. If he can bring ONE millennial to purchase a Coltrane or Shorter album, it's worth it
    Jacob, I always respect your opinions, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. For the record, I love Kamasi's work to date. I think it breathes life into a musical style worth resuscitating. Overall, I find the work only "smooth" in the sense of its call back to the times of CTI records and other labels at the time, blending jazz, R&B, big band, afro-latin percussion, and soul into something that now feels distinctly late 60s, early 70s. It's a cornucopia of Black Americana.

    And just when you think you have it figured out, more present day elements are tossed in to keep you on your toes. And there's plenty of area to breathe in may of the arrangements, allowing for some musical chops. In the end, like you, I hope it does bring more young listeners into the jazz world.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  10. #110
    I am also struggling with the comment. How is Kamasi polarizing? I've been following his career for some time. He makes superb music. It is something that combines elements of free jazz, bop, gospel, Coltranisms, and electronica. He has some great musicians playing with him, including Thundercat. I far prefer Washington to the reactionary jazz of Wynton Marsalis, for example. In my mind, Marsalis is far more polarizing. But for sure, Washington is making "Great Black Music."

    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  11. #111
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Posts
    1,865
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Jacob, I always respect your opinions, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. For the record, I love Kamasi's work to date. I think it breathes life into a musical style worth resuscitating. Overall, I find the work only "smooth" in the sense of its call back to the times of CTI records and other labels at the time, blending jazz, R&B, big band, afro-latin percussion, and soul into something that now feels distinctly late 60s, early 70s. It's a cornucopia of Black Americana.

    And just when you think you have it figured out, more present day elements are tossed in to keep you on your toes. And there's plenty of area to breathe in may of the arrangements, allowing for some musical chops. In the end, like you, I hope it does bring more young listeners into the jazz world.
    I can see Jacob's point, though I don't agree with him. Kamasi does a whole lot of things, but he doesn't do any single one of them world-class. There's certainly better jazz composers out there, better players, better orchestrators, guys who have a stronger and richer grasp on any of the many sub-genres he refers to, and much deeper exponents of the jazz tradition. But with Kamasi, the point is the combination. His music may not sound like hip-hop, and he doesn't consider it to be anything but jazz, but there's a hip-hop mentality at work there, an aesthetic of combining and repurposing music from all over and making a artistically viable collage out of the whole patchwork. I personally think that he's doing, successfully, what Wynton has tried to do - making the jazz tradition, mainstream jazz, relevant and bringing it up to date. And part the reason he succeeds is that he puts jazz at the center of a context that includes pretty much every type of black popular music, plus some of the European stuff that black music drew on. Unlike Wynton, he doesn't try to keep it as a pure, perfect museum piece, frozen in its pristine Fifties state before it all went wrong with free jazz and fusion. And if that's turning it into pop music, so be it - it could probably stand to communicate a little better with audiences.

  12. #112
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    La Florida
    Posts
    7,554
    sometimes think we try too hard to "progicize" music, so calling something by Kanye prog, or asking if Elton John's "Funeral for a Friend" is prog. Really, who cares? Like what you like, stop nichifying it.
    Good post. Totally agree.

  13. #113
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    6,091
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Jacob, I always respect your opinions, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. For the record, I love Kamasi's work to date. I think it breathes life into a musical style worth resuscitating. Overall, I find the work only "smooth" in the sense of its call back to the times of CTI records and other labels at the time, blending jazz, R&B, big band, afro-latin percussion, and soul into something that now feels distinctly late 60s, early 70s. It's a cornucopia of Black Americana.

    And just when you think you have it figured out, more present day elements are tossed in to keep you on your toes. And there's plenty of area to breathe in may of the arrangements, allowing for some musical chops. In the end, like you, I hope it does bring more young listeners into the jazz world.
    And if you've been to KW concerts, the energy levels can rise to heavy metal levels (headbanging is not un-common)

    However, the danger with those young crowds is that they would tend to think Kamasi is a groundbreaker, which IMHO is not the case, despite his forays into electronica (something Shabaka Hutchings does better - or more - than he does)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana5140 View Post
    I am also struggling with the comment. How is Kamasi polarizing? I've been following his career for some time. He makes superb music. It is something that combines elements of free jazz, bop, gospel, Coltranisms, and electronica. He has some great musicians playing with him, including Thundercat. I far prefer Washington to the reactionary jazz of Wynton Marsalis, for example. In my mind, Marsalis is far more polarizing. But for sure, Washington is making "Great Black Music."
    Kamazi is not in the least polarizing in the view that him and Shabaka (Hutchings) are attracting many young & older white crowds, but bringing black dudes (young & older) in the attendence of jazz concerts. And though rather ugly (I mean the guy could've earned his life playing vilains in Hollywood), Kamasi is pulling the women into his concerts.

    This was inconceivable 10/20 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    I can see Jacob's point, though I don't agree with him. Kamasi does a whole lot of things, but he doesn't do any single one of them world-class. There's certainly better jazz composers out there, better players, better orchestrators, guys who have a stronger and richer grasp on any of the many sub-genres he refers to, and much deeper exponents of the jazz tradition. But with Kamasi, the point is the combination. His music may not sound like hip-hop, and he doesn't consider it to be anything but jazz, but there's a hip-hop mentality at work there, an aesthetic of combining and repurposing music from all over and making a artistically viable collage out of the whole patchwork. I personally think that he's doing, successfully, what Wynton has tried to do - making the jazz tradition, mainstream jazz, relevant and bringing it up to date. And part the reason he succeeds is that he puts jazz at the center of a context that includes pretty much every type of black popular music, plus some of the European stuff that black music drew on. Unlike Wynton, he doesn't try to keep it as a pure, perfect museum piece, frozen in its pristine Fifties state before it all went wrong with free jazz and fusion. And if that's turning it into pop music, so be it - it could probably stand to communicate a little better with audiences.
    Indeed always found Wynton incredibly conservative and reactionary, though I can see his PoV as well, even if I don't share it.

    As for Kamasi, though I loved The Epic and the Harmony EP that followed (I think I was amongst the first on PE on the ball), I must that his latest is just more of the same... In many ways, even if H&E is a technically better album, The Epic was top spot in its year of release (2015, if memory serves) while the new one barely scraped my top 20 last year, knowing that 15 was an all-arpund better year - though both are the best years since the millenium.

    I really hope for him that he moves on towards something else (at the risk that I may not like the direction taken), or else he could go stale quickly, at the risk of cheapening his early "solo" works.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  14. #114
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Barcelona
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Kamazi is not in the least polarizing in the view that him and Shabaka (Hutchings) are attracting many young & older white crowds, but bringing black dudes (young & older) in the attendence of jazz concerts. And though rather ugly (I mean the guy could've earned his life playing vilains in Hollywood), Kamasi is pulling the women into his concerts.

    This was inconceivable 10/20 years ago.
    Indeed, just like Muse, Mars Volta, Tool and similar acts made prog look (relatively) hip to new rock audience a decade and a half ago, Kamasi and Shabaka make it happen for jazz now. I am not a fan of either (I prefer Shabaka over Kamasi though) and IMO there is far more interesting modern jazz music being put out these days, but I do appreciate their positive impact on the perception of the genre.
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 07-14-2019 at 04:57 PM.

  15. #115
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Coastal California
    Posts
    799
    Everyone will be a prog fan after the singularity.
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  16. #116
    I can see Jacob's point, though I don't agree with him. Kamasi does a whole lot of things, but he doesn't do any single one of them world-class. There's certainly better jazz composers out there, better players, better orchestrators, guys who have a stronger and richer grasp on any of the many sub-genres he refers to, and much deeper exponents of the jazz tradition. But with Kamasi, the point is the combination. His music may not sound like hip-hop, and he doesn't consider it to be anything but jazz, but there's a hip-hop mentality at work there, an aesthetic of combining and repurposing music from all over and making a artistically viable collage out of the whole patchwork. I personally think that he's doing, successfully, what Wynton has tried to do - making the jazz tradition, mainstream jazz, relevant and bringing it up to date. And part the reason he succeeds is that he puts jazz at the center of a context that includes pretty much every type of black popular music, plus some of the European stuff that black music drew on. Unlike Wynton, he doesn't try to keep it as a pure, perfect museum piece, frozen in its pristine Fifties state before it all went wrong with free jazz and fusion. And if that's turning it into pop music, so be it - it could probably stand to communicate a little better with audiences.
    This is well said. But what is interesting here is that this thread is about the future of progressive rock- and we are discussing someone who is at the forefront of what the future of jazz may bring. Now, I am not saying this is OT. Instead, what I think is that it actually bodes well- we are jumping genres, seeing admixtures and focusing on the music, not the style. it may be that there is nothing "new" in Kamasi's music, but he is certainly drawing people back into the fold. He is a good evangelist for the styles of music he plays. Yes, Shabaka may do it better, but has a bit less renown outside of cognoscenti. but so what? It's all good.

    So,. how does prog evolve? Where does it go from here? I love Magma. Love them. But they are still playing repertoire pieces and have for many years. The pieces evolve and mutate and are recombined in new ways, but it is still the same outside of a few smaller scale pieces like Slag Tanz (and one major one in Felicite Thosz). KC keeps evolving but has settled a bit on formula- play some old pieces mixed with the new. I would like to see something new emerge. Radiohead was a likely model- mixing pop with electronica and some heavy-duty stuff. That was a bit of a new direction- just a huge smoosh of sound.
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  17. #117
    Member Mascodagama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    7th Circle of Brexit
    Posts
    2,150
    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    Everyone will be a prog fan after the singularity.
    ...and then who will we sneer at?

    (Answer: people who like the wrong kind of prog, just like now. But there will be more of them. Win!)
    “your ognna pay pay with my wrath of ballbat”

    Bandcamp Profile

  18. #118
    Member Mascodagama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    7th Circle of Brexit
    Posts
    2,150
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    And if you've been to KW concerts, the energy levels can rise to heavy metal levels (headbanging is not un-common)

    However, the danger with those young crowds is that they would tend to think Kamasi is a groundbreaker, which IMHO is not the case, despite his forays into electronica (something Shabaka Hutchings does better - or more - than he does)



    Kamazi is not in the least polarizing in the view that him and Shabaka (Hutchings) are attracting many young & older white crowds, but bringing black dudes (young & older) in the attendence of jazz concerts. And though rather ugly (I mean the guy could've earned his life playing vilains in Hollywood), Kamasi is pulling the women into his concerts.

    This was inconceivable 10/20 years ago.



    Indeed always found Wynton incredibly conservative and reactionary, though I can see his PoV as well, even if I don't share it.

    As for Kamasi, though I loved The Epic and the Harmony EP that followed (I think I was amongst the first on PE on the ball), I must that his latest is just more of the same... In many ways, even if H&E is a technically better album, The Epic was top spot in its year of release (2015, if memory serves) while the new one barely scraped my top 20 last year, knowing that 15 was an all-arpund better year - though both are the best years since the millenium.

    I really hope for him that he moves on towards something else (at the risk that I may not like the direction taken), or else he could go stale quickly, at the risk of cheapening his early "solo" works.
    We have conservatives like Marsalis and popularisers like Washington, but it's worth saying that there are still innovators and avant-gardists emerging at the margins of jazz - Tyshawn Sorey and Steve Lehman to name two.
    “your ognna pay pay with my wrath of ballbat”

    Bandcamp Profile

  19. #119
    As long as Asia is still going, there will be great new progressive music!

  20. #120
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Posts
    1,865
    Quote Originally Posted by Mascodagama View Post
    We have conservatives like Marsalis and popularisers like Washington, but it's worth saying that there are still innovators and avant-gardists emerging at the margins of jazz - Tyshawn Sorey and Steve Lehman to name two.
    Both excellent. Lehman's Mise en Abime is a stunner, and TS plays drums on it. And while I wasn't terribly impressed by the one Tyshawn Sorey recording I bought, I saw his trio live at last year's Big Ears, and they were amazing.

    Something strikes me about Kamasi - in a way he's the John Adams of jazz, in that he's figured out a different angle on the tradition and manages by that to make it sound new again.

  21. #121
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    San Diego California
    Posts
    33
    Has the audience for jazz grown in the last 10 years? Declined, or stayed about the same?

  22. #122
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    6,091
    Quote Originally Posted by Mascodagama View Post
    We have conservatives like Marsalis and popularisers like Washington, but it's worth saying that there are still innovators and avant-gardists emerging at the margins of jazz - Tyshawn Sorey and Steve Lehman to name two.
    Not to mention Nick Barsch

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple_Camel View Post
    Has the audience for jazz grown in the last 10 years? Declined, or stayed about the same?
    Difficult to say, because there is the dying jazz crowds thining out, but it's countered by a new wave (20's & 30'sumthin') which might not be lifetime jazz buffs, but simply in "jazz phase"...

    All I can tell you is that I used to be amongst the youger in a jazz audience some 10 years ago, when I was 45, and now I'm in the older third (given that I'm now 55), but in jazz fests around Benelux, the demographics have dramatically changed, to the point that some jazz fests organizers are thinking of taking the chairs away (which will make the older lifetime buffs flee... or discourage them anyways).

    The jazz festival organizers are really playing it on the rope: wanting to cater to a young crowd (by programming younger styles of jazz) who could also change their momentous affinities and risk losing its faithfull crowds. If they go the first path, there could be little differences between jazz fests and rock/techno fests in the near future.

    It's rather pleasant, yet a bit frightening, to see that the majority of the crowd in to see Manchester's Gondwana label (I'll still include Gogo Penguins and Birchall with Mammal Hands and Halsall - the label founder) or the London-based Brownswood (Shabaka's crowd) label concerts being invaded by a young generation with very little depth in jazz culture (of course, at their age, I wasn't all that deep-thoughted in jazz myself in the 80&90's). I wouldn't want to imagine them all as beotians/prophane , but some (mosts?) are thinking Kamasi is brand new stuff and they've never heard (or even seen) a McCoy Tyner's 70's album, but I'd rather see them at Middleheim's Jazz Fest(Antwerp) than at Tomorrowland some 20 kms south.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    I think that progressive rock will ultimately go the way of Jazz: a limited but highly-appreciative audience that just about replaces itself as people age out (or simply die), and supports a vibrant live scene. It has a similar intellectual appeal to that of modern Jazz.
    I have always assumed (or hope) that will be the case - Prog is not dead - it just smells funny.

    v

  24. #124
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    San Diego California
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by vmartell View Post
    I have always assumed (or hope) that will be the case - Prog is not dead - it just smells funny.

    v
    I've never thought Prog is dead, just concerned about what the future of the genre will be. Without support from some kind of popular fan base, I don't see a motivation for the best players to write music in this genre or tour it for that matter. It's an expensive genre that isn't always based upon minimalist ideologies. Robust staging and instrumentation, complex music etc, isn't cheap. It needs to be properly financed to really thrive.

  25. #125
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    South Hadley, MA
    Posts
    2,663
    I discovered this band, Chon, recently. Math Rock, but not as heavy and skronky as a lot of the Math Rock I've heard, so I've been sort of digging this. But this isn't an advertisement for Chon. I was watching this video, and it struck me that this is what I'd envision the future of Progressive Rock to look like. You don't have to watch the whole thing, the first couple of minutes shows what really caught my attention, which is a reasonably sized audience of young people listening intently to instrumentally demanding rock music.



    I know Chon's music probably doesn't resonate with everyone here as "Progressive Rock," at least as exemplified by the big name 70s bands. But I think we have to face it, that ship has sailed, and unless some weird retro pop culture time-warp happens, that stuff isn't coming back into mass popularity, or even enough popularity to seriously support an underground scene. What encourages me about seeing this video is that Chon plays rock music (not Metal) that features hot-shit playing and a focus on the instrumentalists, with compositions that don't follow typical verse-chorus-bridge arrangements. These elements are, to me, the real crux of what Progressive Rock is all about. And to me, Chon exhibit enough of those critical elements to have no trouble classifying them as Progressive Rock.

    For me, too many of the modern artsy rock bands lack enough of the hot shit playing and don't stray enough from pretty typical song form to really consider them Progressive Rock. I was pretty surprised to see this audience of young people listening to and enjoying music like this, and it gave me some hope. Yeah, it won't sound like Yes or ELP or even Hatfield and the North or VDGG. But maybe, just maybe it doesn't all have to be so bereft of the musical elements that made people think of bands like Yes, ELP, KC (and a host of others) as being a "special breed" within the larger rubric of rock music. For better or worse, those bands got tagged as "Progressive Rock," and elements of their style became synonymous with that sub-grouping of rock bands. But if you can strip that away without losing the meat on the bones, which is the great playing and challenging compositions within a rock context, then maybe there's hope.

    So if there's any optimism, I think it lies here in bands that appeal to a new, young audience who embody the spirit, but not the sound, of what really made those big name 70s bands special and stand out even within a sea of other innovative and forward thinking artists. That's my opinion on the future of Progressive Rock. Not progressive music in some larger sense, but capital P Progressive Rock. Rock music that embodies those certain, and to me critical, musical elements.

    Bill

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •