CD Rot

[hFx]

Worst CD rot I have seen is from a houseboat that sunk (in cold sea water) and was salvaged after two weeks. Most of the aluminium in the reflective layer on the CDs had already corroded away. Probably CDs are most susceptible to rot in warm, moist and more or less salty conditions (Florida? ) or other corrosive environments. Also bad quality control - the plastic (polycarbonate) , temperature and cleanliness in the moulders, the aluminium sputtering process and the epoxy lacquer process - can cause the premature deterioration.

[Mikhael]

For me, it's been DVDs. I had a "Steve Vai-Live in Astoria" DVD become unplayable. But the absolute worst is my ENTIRE Babylon 5 collection has rotted! Warner wouldn't even return any emails on the subject - no reply at all. It's the only TV show I bought on DVD. @#$%!!!!

[Mister Triscuits]

But the absolute worst is my ENTIRE Babylon 5 collection has rotted! Warner wouldn't even return any emails on the subject - no reply at all. It's the only TV show I bought on DVD. @#$%!!!!

Ouch. Bummer. I must have bought those boxes around 2006, and just watched a bunch of episodes earlier this year, so I know at least the ones I sampled from are still good.

[JJ88]

The shelf-life of DVDs concerns me more than CDs- thus far it appears that only a couple of CD pressing plants were making dud discs some decades ago.

One thing I have read is that DVDs which develop a cloudy surface can actually be polished to play again...soap and warm water, apparently, but worth reading up more on this. I know MGM had various discs which went like this.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=240035

[no.nine]

A few hopefully helpful notes, from my personal experience. Some were already covered, which I want to corroborate, and some were not:


BRONZING:

The two plants which cranked out bronzing-prone CDs were PDO - ONLY their UK plant - and OPTI.ME.S. from Italy. The problem originates from the discs being made with silver instead of aluminum. If you look at discs from these manufacturers from the covered time period, roughly '86 through '93, they're visually identical (I'm speaking of their physical attributes, not of the bronzing). That's because they used exactly the same flawed manufacturing process/equipment; OPTI.ME.S. had some sort of affiliation with PDO.

The problem is said to have been discovered and corrected by around '93, but I've read one report of a UK PDO with bronzing from as late as '95. That was an isolated report, though. The plant shut down in '96, so it's POSSIBLE that all UK PDO's are prone to bronzing, though I have many from '93 and after which never started to bronze.

I used to believe that once a CD starts bronzing, it would inevitably begin exhibiting playback issues, because that had been my personal experience. Over time, I've found that this is not always true. However, I wouldn't chance it. I recommend looking for a replacement by a different manufacturer when possible, or at least backing up the audio providing you still can.

Further, the playing surface NEVER changes color, so don't let that lead you to a false sense of security. And finally, some of these CDs have a uniform, light yellow or gold color. That was done for cosmetic purposes (why??), and is not a bronzing issue.



CDRS:

You can't necessarily go by brand name, because many brands, like Maxell as one example, outsourced their CDR manufacturing to different companies. The ones which are made in Japan are the most stable, as those are actually made by Taiyo Yuden, which were one of the two most reliable CDR manufacturers. The other is Mitsui, who are now MAM-A.

I think only one person in this thread has mentioned adhesive paper labels causing problems, but this cannot be stressed enough. The adhesive can interact with the surface coating and corrupt the data just underneath. Practically every single CDR I've ever had go bad had one of these labels, before I found out that they're a legitimate problem and that I wasn't just experiencing a strange coincidence. In my experience, no problems are caused by inkjet or thermal printed labels, or by Sharpie markers. One problem is that if you use a cheap blank (like no-name brands bought in bulk, for example), it doesn't make a difference HOW they're labeled - they're automatically more prone to shorter lifespans.

Because I got wise to all of this quite some time ago, I've experienced very little in the way of CDR failures. There's always a chance of a random gremlin-induced unexplainable problem, but the info I've written in this post has served me very well in general.



PINHOLES:

With very rare exceptions, these don't cause any playback issues, and aren't even CD Rot at all. They're a manufacturing issue, and when they exist, they were there from the start. They don't get larger or spread over time.

[spacefreak]

A few hopefully helpful notes, from my personal experience. Some were already covered, which I want to corroborate, and some were not:

PINHOLES:

With very rare exceptions, these don't cause any playback issues, and aren't even CD Rot at all. They're a manufacturing issue, and when they exist, they were there from the start. They don't get larger or spread over time.

Don't know if they don't spread over time, but I encountered one pinholled CD that got unplayable. ZNR's Traité De Mécanique Populaire first version on Buda Records (82477-2). I remember it played immaculately when I first got it in 1992; by the end of the decade it skipped on all my CD readers and all its surface was full of pinholes. Had to wait till 2008 to get the new reissue.

[Adm.Kirk]

I've warned many about the adhesive labels. That's good advice!

Bill

[no.nine]

Don't know if they don't spread over time, but I encountered one pinholled CD that got unplayable. ZNR's Traité De Mécanique Populaire first version on Buda Records (82477-2). I remember it played immaculately when I first got it in 1992; by the end of the decade it skipped on all my CD readers and all its surface was full of pinholes. Had to wait till 2008 to get the new reissue.

Pinholes are just tiny specks where aluminum didn't properly adhere to the substrate, and they're fixed into place by the disc's coating. Kind of like a fossil into amber. They generally don't cause playback issues because of the error correction capabilities of CD players. An UNUSUALLY large pinhole - large enough to be seen WITHOUT holding the disc up to light (it would look like a tiny black dot to the naked eye) - CAN cause problems. But in my experience, these are extremely rare.

I don't know, of course, what was happening with your particular CD, but I'd suspect it was something other than pinholes, even if the disc had them. I have countless CDs from the '80s which had pinholes when brand new, and none have spread or caused any problems. I've experienced the problem I talked about above (created by a HUGE pinhole) only one time that I can recall in all these decades. It was a Tangerine Dream CD, for the record.

BTW, I've found pinholes most commonly on CDs manufactured by West German Polygram/PDO, U.S. WEA, and MPO from France, though I'm sure there are others.

[spacefreak]

Pinholes are just tiny specks where aluminum didn't properly adhere to the substrate, and they're fixed into place by the disc's coating. Kind of like a fossil into amber. They generally don't cause playback issues because of the error correction capabilities of CD players. An UNUSUALLY large pinhole - large enough to be seen WITHOUT holding the disc up to light (it would look like a tiny black dot to the naked eye) - CAN cause problems. But in my experience, these are extremely rare.
BTW, I've found pinholes most commonly on CDs manufactured by West German Polygram/PDO, U.S. WEA, and MPO from France, though I'm sure there are others.

Yes, I have some other CDs with pinholes (some early Repertoire's -->f.e. "W.W.W." by Burnin' Red Ivanhoe) and they play perfectly. But that ZNR was a very particular case; upon purchase it played perfectly but few years later it was full of pinholes that spread all over its surface and were only visible through a light source. But there were hundreds of them (never experienced anything similar and it was NOT CD rot, like f.e. in the Ozric Dovetail disks pressed by PDO). As if the disk simply "fell apart" little by little... Never witnessed something similar to this date.

[no.nine]

Yes, I have some other CDs with pinholes (some early Repertoire's -->f.e. "W.W.W." by Burnin' Red Ivanhoe) and they play perfectly. But that ZNR was a very particular case; upon purchase it played perfectly but few years later it was full of pinholes that spread all over its surface and were only visible through a light source. But there were hundreds of them (never experienced anything similar and it was NOT CD rot, like f.e. in the Ozric Dovetail disks pressed by PDO). As if the disk simply "fell apart" little by little... Never witnessed something similar to this date.

Very strange indeed. But I can't help feeling that, while unexplainable, what happened with your CD was something other than pinholes. Because of the very nature of what pinholes are and why they exist, they can't spread.

This kind of weird, often mysterious, one-off problem does happen occasionally. As an example, I have a John Coltrane CD which played fine until I bought a particular Yamaha CD player. The disc mistracked immediately, skipping over the entire disc, rendering it completely unplayable even though there was absolutely nothing visibly wrong with it. So, the problem was the player, one might think. Except that the player didn't have this problem with ANY other CD. And the disc played perfectly on every other player I've owned before and after that one.

So, a complete mystery. A weird thing between one specific disc and one specific player. Not a perfect analogy with your ZNR situation, but a good illustration of a problem with no apparent explanation, let alone a definitive one. Thankfully, such inexplicable problems are very rare, but they do happen.

[rcarlberg]

It's a well-known fact that Masato Oshiki, head of Yamaha Music, absolutely HATES John Coltrane and so has dictated that his players not play Coltrane CDs.

Just kidding

[no.nine]

It's a well-known fact that Masato Oshiki, head of Yamaha Music, absolutely HATES John Coltrane and so has dictated that his players not play Coltrane CDs.

Just kidding

Haha!

Well, sorry to inform him that my current Yamaha (different model, of course), plays that Coltrane CD just fine.

[Trane]

Very strange indeed. But I can't help feeling that, while unexplainable, what happened with your CD was something other than pinholes. Because of the very nature of what pinholes are and why they exist, they can't spread.

This kind of weird, often mysterious, one-off problem does happen occasionally. As an example, I have a John Coltrane CD which played fine until I bought a particular Yamaha CD player. The disc mistracked immediately, skipping over the entire disc, rendering it completely unplayable even though there was absolutely nothing visibly wrong with it. So, the problem was the player, one might think. Except that the player didn't have this problem with ANY other CD. And the disc played perfectly on every other player I've owned before and after that one.

So, a complete mystery. A weird thing between one specific disc and one specific player. Not a perfect analogy with your ZNR situation, but a good illustration of a problem with no apparent explanation, let alone a definitive one. Thankfully, such inexplicable problems are very rare, but they do happen.

my Yamie CD player had problems with heat...

Above 35°C, it would skip and blunder

Haha!

Well, sorry to inform him that my current Yamaha (different model, of course), plays that Coltrane CD just fine.

My Yamie deck refuses to play disci, vecause it's got taste

[spacefreak]

So, a complete mystery. A weird thing between one specific disc and one specific player. Not a perfect analogy with your ZNR situation, but a good illustration of a problem with no apparent explanation, let alone a definitive one. Thankfully, such inexplicable problems are very rare, but they do happen.

Yes they do happen. Indeed it happened with the same ZNR album/edition to a close friend of mine as well. Mystery.

[no.nine]

Yes they do happen. Indeed it happened with the same ZNR album/edition to a close friend of mine as well. Mystery.

Sounds to me like maybe that entire pressing was defective. A similar case I know of is a promo sampler of The Beatles "At the BBC" which was pressed up by EMI Uden in the Netherlands. Most copies went bad (maybe even all of them), and I remember someone describing the playing surface as looking like it had cracked. But I've never heard of any other CD from that plant having an issue. So it's my guess that contamination of some sort occurred during the manufacturing process of these certain CD runs.

[Hour Candle]

I am quite the album collector and have a huge amount of CDs, many of them being purchased back in the 80s and 90s. Call me lucky, but I have have never encountered any CD rot on any of those albums yet. They all play fine.

[chalkpie]

I am quite the album collector and have a huge amount of CDs, many of them being purchased back in the 80s and 90s. Call me lucky, but I have have never encountered any CD rot on any of those albums yet. They all play fine.

same.

[rcarlberg]

I am quite the album collector and have a huge amount of CDs, many of them being purchased back in the 80s and 90s. Call me lucky, but I have have never encountered any CD rot on any of those albums yet. They all play fine.

I have run across maybe a dozen CD-Rs that have gone unplayable in 35 years, out of the nearly 10,000 CDs and CD-Rs in my collection. All (except one) were cheap early blanks, private labeled for Office Depot or CompUSA. However, not ALL of my early blanks have gone blotto. Some of them are still just fine.

The one other case of bronzing, I forget the brand name but it surprised me because it was a higher-quality name.

I have always stored my CDs in a temperature-controlled room out of the sunlight. I do not keep any in my car. I have not sunk any in a tugboat.

Some of the very first CD-Rs I made, in 1996 or so, are still error-free. I've never had a commercial CD go bad.

[Czyszy]

Personally, I rip every CD right after unboxing and never touch the physical disc again.

[Mister Triscuits]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=240035

Interesting that the linked discussion starts with a James Bond DVD that has gone south. For the past several months I've been working my way through my old box set of James Bond DVDs (usually watching one each weekend) and they've all been fine except one, The Spy Who Loved Me, which freezes at a specific point about halfway through, and cannot be fast-forwarded or skipped from there. There is some sort of visible weirdness with the metal layer.

[pb2015]

I've been lucky so far with CDs as far as I know, except for the Live Phish series where they packaged the CDs in plastic sleeves that eventually leaked "goop" onto the CDs and ruined them.

Speaking of jam band stuff, I read on the Hoffman forum that recent Grateful Dead CDs have been turning unplayable.

I recall reading a while back that Todd Rundgren CDs on Rhino had problems. Haven't found one yet, but in the last few years I guess I've always gone with LPs or streaming when I wanted to hear him.

[PCMusic]

Personally, I rip every CD right after unboxing and never touch the physical disc again.

Have been doing pretty much the same thing but with intension to still play the originals on the main stereo system where there is a little risk to damage them.

[PCMusic]

Interesting that the linked discussion starts with a James Bond DVD that has gone south. For the past several months I've been working my way through my old box set of James Bond DVDs (usually watching one each weekend) and they've all been fine except one, The Spy Who Loved Me, which freezes at a specific point about halfway through, and cannot be fast-forwarded or skipped from there. There is some sort of visible weirdness with the metal layer.

This quite often happens on DVD-R DL (double layer) copies when switching to the 2nd layer. Perhaps it is a similar problem there with your DVD? Unfortunately knowing that will not help you there, though, you may want to try a different player and see it has the same problem. All players / brands have a different capability for reading discs and coping with errors.

[3LockBox]

I've experienced two CDs inexplicably malfunctioning with no apparent damage. Same with a couple of DVDs. But that's it. I have have never taken overly special care of my CDs. Perfect sound forever.

[rcarlberg]

I've experienced two CDs inexplicably malfunctioning with no apparent damage. Same with a couple of DVDs. But that's it. I have have never taken overly special care of my CDs. Perfect sound forever.

I've worn out three CD players. They stopped playing EVERYTHING.