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Thread: In The Court Of King Crimson

  1. #26
    Now, how about that maple species Acer platanoides Crimson King, that somebody once claimed was also referenced by the shape of the photo collage featured on the inlay of 'Islands'?

    Crimson King Maple image_1257.jpg

    King Crimson Islands 36200.jpg
    Last edited by sphinx; 2 Weeks Ago at 10:28 AM.
    τί ἐστιν ὃ μίαν ἔχον φωνὴν τετράπουν καὶ δίπουν καὶ τρίπουν γίνεται;

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    I always understood that the Crimson King was a reference to the Devil/Satan.
    Itís hard to avoid that conclusion, especially since Robert Fripp seems to embrace if (ďthe man with an aimĒ and all that).

    However Iím sure Iíve heard or read an interview with Peter Sinfield where he clearly refuted that the name was a reference to the devil. He just wanted something intimidating and majestic, and this name worked well for those purposes. Or something like that. (I wish I had a link.)

    I admit that as a huge King Crimson fan and a Christian (my conversion to Christianity coming much later than my falling in love with the music of King Crimson), this issue makes me uncomfortable.

    I know issues of faith and obedience to God are laughable to many enlightened progheads, but theyíre not to me. God help me, I love the music!

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sphinx View Post
    Now, how about that maple species Acer platanoides Crimson King, that somebody once claimed was also referenced by the shape of the photo collage featured on the inlay of 'Islands'?

    Crimson King Maple image_1257.jpg

    King Crimson Islands 36200.jpg
    We have a 50+ year old Crimson King maple next to our house in the back yard.

    Awesome majestic tree.
    No one plans to take the path that brings you lower

  4. #29
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the winter tree View Post
    I've always really liked "Formentera Lady".
    Me too! I'm surprised to hear that Mr. Fripp dislikes it. It really captures a beautiful mood. One of my faves

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by The Crimson King View Post
    I admit that as a huge King Crimson fan and a Christian (my conversion to Christianity coming much later than my falling in love with the music of King Crimson), this issue makes me uncomfortable.

    I know issues of faith and obedience to God are laughable to many enlightened progheads, but they’re not to me. God help me, I love the music!
    Since there is room for interpretation regarding the name, couldn't you choose whatever interpretation fits your personal beliefs and enjoy the music without feeling uncomfortable ?
    I don't think much about the band name, but I can relate to the sense of mystery, majesty and creativity that it conveys.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interstellar View Post
    Since there is room for interpretation regarding the name, couldn't you choose whatever interpretation fits your personal beliefs and enjoy the music without feeling uncomfortable ?
    That’s right! It doesn’t have to be referencing the devil, it can be referencing illicit, illegal drugs!
    Steve F.

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  7. #32
    Or, a tree!

  8. #33
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    Maybe they should have went with Blue Meth instead?

  9. #34
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    They should have followed The Gourd instead of The Sandal.
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  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Interstellar View Post
    Since there is room for interpretation regarding the name, couldn't you choose whatever interpretation fits your personal beliefs and enjoy the music without feeling uncomfortable ?
    I don't think much about the band name, but I can relate to the sense of mystery, majesty and creativity that it conveys.
    As a Crimhead and Christian myself, this is how I see it.

  11. #36
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    That’s right! It doesn’t have to be referencing the devil, it can be referencing illicit, illegal drugs!
    I've bo issue with either

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick L. View Post
    Or, a tree!
    Neither on that one

    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Maybe they should have went with Blue Meth instead?
    Maybe a tad too obvious (what a relief it would to christians that would've had to deny their love to the band, though ), and not aging well enough (who under 40 would know what that refers to?)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  12. #37
    Well, I'm a Christian myself and have never felt bothered by King Crimson. I've always thought the name was open to interpretation. They're also a far cry from actual satanic stuff, like the black metal bands (e.g. Mayhem).

    Love KC's music, especially those first four albums.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by the winter tree View Post
    I've always really liked "Formentera Lady".
    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    Me too! I'm surprised to hear that Mr. Fripp dislikes it. It really captures a beautiful mood. One of my faves
    Same here! And it's very different, following on the heels of Lizard.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by daoubourg View Post
    I like Formentera Lady. Well, I've always loved ItCotCK, ItWoP, Lizard and Islands more than LTiA, SaBB and Red. These first four albums are more beautiful imo.
    While I agree in general, I think the single most beautiful Crimsong of the '70s is from SAAB - "The Night Watch".
    Ring the bells, that still can ring,
    Forget your perfect offering.
    There is a crack - a crack in everything.
    That's how the light gets in.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    While I agree in general, I think the single most beautiful Crimsong of the '70s is from SAAB - "The Night Watch".
    Absolutely. An utterly beautiful piece of music

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    While I agree in general, I think the single most beautiful Crimsong of the '70s is from SAAB - "The Night Watch".
    That is a lovely track. I think for me the most beautiful may be 'Lady of the Dancing Water'. They had a lot of beautiful music in those days.

  17. #42
    Always have. "Matte Kudasai," "Heartbeat" "Inner Garden", "One Hand", "Eyes Wide Open" all come to mind.
    Ring the bells, that still can ring,
    Forget your perfect offering.
    There is a crack - a crack in everything.
    That's how the light gets in.

  18. #43
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Yep, my daughter and I danced to 'Matte Kudesai' at her wedding. Gorgeous song. As are Islands, Bolero-The Peacocks Tale, and Exiles.

  19. #44
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Did people look confused?
    Ian

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  20. #45
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Did people look confused?
    With Matte Kudesai, surprisingly, several people asked about the song, commenting on how beautiful it was. So it went over quite surprisingly well.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    p.s. Am I the only person reading the book who never before realized that 'King Crimson' was a term for The Devil?

    I remember hearing some insinuation to the effect back in the AOL or Prodigy days. Seems like I remember someone suggesting that the band were "Satanists" or whatever, and used that as proof, along with the title Starless And Bible Black being some sort of allusion to Hell, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F
    1. I was mostly just amused that he reduced his criticism to "It sucks". He's usually a lot more verbose, even if he only wants to get across the fact that something sucks.
    Actually, it was the editor who reduced his criticism down to "It sucks". His actual statement was "It mostly sucks" (and yes that is a Douglas Adams allusion).

    As far as Fripp apparently being "born 40 years old", a few years back, BBC-A ran a series of documentaries on Doctor Who, with various celebrities chiming with commentary here and there. One of the celebrities was none other than Mrs Fripp herself, Toyah Wilcox. Now I reckon if she's being interviewed on a documentary about Doctor Who, she must be a huge fan. So I started imagining her and Chuckles watching the show together, and then debating the given episode afterwards. I imagine two scenarios.

    1. Fripp intellectually and systematically all the plot holes in any given episode, in that dry, pretentious way of his. Toyah saying, "Dear, it's just a television programme, could you just try to switch of your mind and enjoy it?". Or something like that.

    2. This time, it's Toyah, who points out some really obvious plot hole or on screen gaffe, as if it's the end of the universe or something. Chuckles then says, "Now, you know it's just a television program, yes?". Then Toyah gives him the "if looks could kill look" and says "How dare you call Doctor Who 'just a television programme" and then banished him to the sofa for a fortnight as a result!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Crimson King View Post
    I admit that as a huge King Crimson fan and a Christian (my conversion to Christianity coming much later than my falling in love with the music of King Crimson), this issue makes me uncomfortable.

    I know issues of faith and obedience to God are laughable to many enlightened progheads, but they’re not to me. God help me, I love the music!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    It doesn’t have to be referencing the devil, it can be referencing illicit, illegal drugs!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick L. View Post
    Or, a tree!
    I like the Maple tree thing, but as a Christian I am careful to avoid music with lyrics alluding to evil things and I've never heard any such thing in any Crimso piece, so I'm not bothered by King Crimson possibly being an alternate moniker for the opposer.

    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Well, I'm a Christian myself and have never felt bothered by King Crimson. I've always thought the name was open to interpretation. They're also a far cry from actual satanic stuff, like the black metal bands (e.g. Mayhem).

    Love KC's music, especially those first four albums.
    same here
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  23. #48
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Crimson King View Post
    It’s hard to avoid that conclusion, especially since Robert Fripp seems to embrace if (“the man with an aim” and all that).

    However I’m sure I’ve heard or read an interview with Peter Sinfield where he clearly refuted that the name was a reference to the Devil. He just wanted something intimidating and majestic, and this name worked well for those purposes. Or something like that. (I wish I had a link.)

    I admit that as a huge King Crimson fan and a Christian (my conversion to Christianity coming much later than my falling in love with the music of King Crimson), this issue makes me uncomfortable.

    I know issues of faith and obedience to God are laughable to many enlightened progheads, but they’re not to me. God help me, I love the music!
    I too am a Christian, and consequently dug into this as far as I could.

    From reading liner notes, etc. the matter is somewhat complicated and obscure. Fripp has claimed that King Crimson is a reference to Beelzebub, a Philisitine god mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures, and like so many of those gods, the name became synonymous with the devil. Fripp claims that Beelzebub translates to "Man with an aim," and this has something to do with the essential character of the band, or the music made by the band. I read this as Fripp liking to be edgy, but not directly Satanic. I think he quite consciously steps out of the whole Judeo-Christian frame.

    I have done some research and found absolutely no corroboration for Fripp's translation. Ba'al means lord, and Zebul is somewhat obscure. Some think it means heaven, some link it to the Isarelite tribe of Zebulun. Beelzebub, is a kind of a Heberew pun, meaning Lord of Flies, and an obvious slam on a god the Hebrew authors despised. So I have no idea where Fripp got this idea, but he clings to it.

    As you have posted, Pete Sinfield, who claims to actually have coined the name, has flatly denied King Crimson is a Satanic reference. I remember him referencing a Medieval monarch, I think the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I, who, in Sinfield's own obscure way, was a kind of inspiration for some of the lyrics in those early albums. So, there is no consensus, even within the band, or at least between the band and their lyricist.

    This is as far as I have gotten with the whole matter, anyway. I haven't read the book yet. I am looking forward to the second edition so I may do so.
    Last edited by notallwhowander; 1 Day Ago at 08:03 PM.
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  24. #49
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Actually, it was the editor who reduced his criticism down to "It sucks". His actual statement was "It mostly sucks" (and yes that is a Douglas Adams allusion).

    As far as Fripp apparently being "born 40 years old", a few years back, BBC-A ran a series of documentaries on Doctor Who, with various celebrities chiming with commentary here and there. One of the celebrities was none other than Mrs Fripp herself, Toyah Wilcox. Now I reckon if she's being interviewed on a documentary about Doctor Who, she must be a huge fan. So I started imagining her and Chuckles watching the show together, and then debating the given episode afterwards. I imagine two scenarios.

    1. Fripp intellectually and systematically all the plot holes in any given episode, in that dry, pretentious way of his. Toyah saying, "Dear, it's just a television programme, could you just try to switch of your mind and enjoy it?". Or something like that.

    2. This time, it's Toyah, who points out some really obvious plot hole or on screen gaffe, as if it's the end of the universe or something. Chuckles then says, "Now, you know it's just a television program, yes?". Then Toyah gives him the "if looks could kill look" and says "How dare you call Doctor Who 'just a television programme" and then banished him to the sofa for a fortnight as a result!
    This is why I love ya Chris, never change.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Crimson King View Post
    Itís hard to avoid that conclusion, especially since Robert Fripp seems to embrace if (ďthe man with an aimĒ and all that).

    However Iím sure Iíve heard or read an interview with Peter Sinfield where he clearly refuted that the name was a reference to the devil. He just wanted something intimidating and majestic, and this name worked well for those purposes. Or something like that. (I wish I had a link.)
    Was just reading through David Weigel "The Show That Never Ends" and came across this on page 43.

    "Sinfield made a second contribution to the band. It obviously couldn't be called GGF given the sudden and unexpected Giles shortage. Sinfield reached into his notebook and pulled out "King Crimson" a term he had come up with to fill in when 'Satan' didn't fit a rhyme."

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