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Thread: YES - 50 Live released July 19th

  1. #176
    Saw Tom Brislin perform with Yes, Camel and Renaissance. Great player. Sadly, Kansas rarely seem to ever tour Europe - last time they had a Paris gig planned, it was cancelled (a couple of years ago), so I'm not really hoping to see him play with them, but I'd welcome the chance.
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  2. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by abhorsen View Post
    That's it! Did Igor play with them on the Masterworks tour? I remember him from the Ladder tour. Will have to look that up. The Ladder tour was a bit of a disappointment for me as I wanted more of the album played. At the time I thought it was a strong release except for the song Finally. As others have said, the Magnification tracks worked very well sans orchestra on the Full Circle tour. I like what Wakeman brought to those songs.
    I'd have to check but as I recall they played 4 or 5 songs from that album.. Plus Hearts was played on that tour although sadly not included with the album or the DVD release..

  3. #178
    Comment on a Youtube rendition of Awaken from 2018: "Awaken, gentle mass rough......"

  4. #179
    I took my 15 year old son at the last minute to the Mann Music Center for the Symphonic tour on Aug, 21, 2001. We sat on the lawn on a beautiful night and it was fabulous. It was his first and probably only Yes concert, probably my 20th, at least, and close to the end of that part of our what seemed like then simple life together. Days later the whole world changed, and by 2005 my 53 year old wife of 31 years passed from lung cancer and a new way of life began for my 2 sons and I. The concert was wonderful. the perfect night, big moon over the stage, airplanes heading toward a landing at PHL, great music shared with my son and some friends from Tower Records. It is a beautiful memory, I had lived for Yes and Genesis and the music and concerts, the Spectrum, the Tower Theater, and the Philly scene, and WMMR, and Ed Sciaky. I loved being in the right place at the right time for all of this. I'm sure everyone has their own memories of those days, and I'm very lucky to have this one.

  5. #180
    yesstyx01.jpg Last time I saw them was in 2011.
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  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by happytheman View Post
    I'd have to check but as I recall they played 4 or 5 songs from that album.. Plus Hearts was played on that tour although sadly not included with the album or the DVD release..
    I think I was bummed because they dropped New Language by the time they got to San Francisco and that was my favorite track off of the album at the time!

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiberman View Post
    I took my 15 year old son at the last minute to the Mann Music Center for the Symphonic tour on Aug, 21, 2001. We sat on the lawn on a beautiful night and it was fabulous. It was his first and probably only Yes concert, probably my 20th, at least, and close to the end of that part of our what seemed like then simple life together. Days later the whole world changed, and by 2005 my 53 year old wife of 31 years passed from lung cancer and a new way of life began for my 2 sons and I. The concert was wonderful. the perfect night, big moon over the stage, airplanes heading toward a landing at PHL, great music shared with my son and some friends from Tower Records. It is a beautiful memory, I had lived for Yes and Genesis and the music and concerts, the Spectrum, the Tower Theater, and the Philly scene, and WMMR, and Ed Sciaky. I loved being in the right place at the right time for all of this. I'm sure everyone has their own memories of those days, and I'm very lucky to have this one.
    What a lovely story. Thank you for sharing. I hope the life and the universe has been kind to you and your family in the years since.

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiberman View Post
    I took my 15 year old son at the last minute to the Mann Music Center for the Symphonic tour on Aug, 21, 2001. We sat on the lawn on a beautiful night and it was fabulous. It was his first and probably only Yes concert, probably my 20th, at least, and close to the end of that part of our what seemed like then simple life together. Days later the whole world changed, and by 2005 my 53 year old wife of 31 years passed from lung cancer and a new way of life began for my 2 sons and I. The concert was wonderful. the perfect night, big moon over the stage, airplanes heading toward a landing at PHL, great music shared with my son and some friends from Tower Records. It is a beautiful memory, I had lived for Yes and Genesis and the music and concerts, the Spectrum, the Tower Theater, and the Philly scene, and WMMR, and Ed Sciaky. I loved being in the right place at the right time for all of this. I'm sure everyone has their own memories of those days, and I'm very lucky to have this one.
    What a beautiful memory, you painted pictures in my minds eye. I'm sorry for the loss of your wife.

  9. #184
    I have many wonderful memories from very many Yes gigs over the decades, going back to 1977. Symphonic was a very memorable tour, I saw three of those shows in the UK. I continue to support each tour, even if performances are not as perfect as the past, they are still fun occasions and I get to enjoy the music and the evenings with my friends.

    I haven’t bought every live release in recent years, but I picked up this CD, I could not justify the price of the vinyl even though the artwork was lovely. I haven’t played it yet though, slightly nervous after so many disparaging comments on this thread!

  10. #185
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    FWIW, the reviews on Steve Hoffman are just as dreadful, for the most part.

    https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa....832571/page-3

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    FWIW, the reviews on Steve Hoffman are just as dreadful, for the most part.

    https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa....832571/page-3
    Thank goodness it isn't just me, and granted I only listened to samples on Amazon and a couple of songs on YouTube Yes Official.
    I can't understand why they would release this concert..did anyone over at Yes headquarters even listen to the live recordings?
    Or is it one of those decisions of it being a Yes product and they know a guaranteed % of diehard Yes fans will buy anything with Yes slapped on the front of it?
    For fun, I watched a couple of diehard Yes fans who have a YT channel to see what their opinions were and was surprised to hear them speaking in glowing terms of of how GREAT it is.

    I think we all know that on any given night a band, no matter how great they are can have a bad night, but to release these performances as they were is surprising to me.
    We saw them live in late July and they sounded great, everyone played tight, and the sound was perfect.
    So I don't think it's time for Yes to throw in the towel yet based on these recordings. But Yes and management didn't do themselves any favors by selling this live set.

    Maybe they should've let Trevor Rabin mix it, and a bit of that "crowd noise" would've helped.
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  12. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Holm-Lupo View Post
    Putting aside the dubious needfulness of another live album with tired versions of Roundabout and Starship Trooper, I really really do not understand that a label can give a pass on such a lackluster mix. It's all just a trebly smear of sound. There's no bottom end, there's too much reverb on everything, and individual sounds are thin and insubstantial. And Sherwood's bass tone I'll never understand - it sounds like he's playing razor wire... Nah, this whole release makes no sense, even from a pure cash grab perspective. At least that Topograchic Drama live album had some spirited playing, relatively speaking, and of course less over-exposed material.
    Many labels these days are not intimately (or even generally) involved in production; instead, with the artists assuming all financial risk when it comes to recording and pre/post-production, the labels are often nothing more than a distribution means. So it's no surprise to me, sadly. I listened to high res samples at HDTracks and, even then, the hole thing sounded lacklustre. But, then again - and not to start a flame war as I've lived Yes, at their best, as much as most (!) - that's largely how I've felt about the post-Anderson Yes with Howe, White, etc. While still not a huge fan, I think the Andersin, Wakeman, Rabin version is the better of the two...

    ...anyway, just a note about production and labels, FYI.
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  13. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    I will comment, Downes intro to Awaken is BAD. Its a major fudge. It's shocking that this is released and deemed 'good enough'. I suppose the show will go on all the while promotors still keep booking tours but Yes 50 Live is not a good advert for the band in concert. How long can they keep on pretending? As I said before, I love Yes but maybe its time that someone either in the band or close to the band says 'this doesn't sound right'. I guess its a brave person who says to Steve Howe 'you can't cut it anymore' and unlikely to happen unless Howe realises it himself. I have to say I dont want my favourite band to go on embarrassing itself like this for much longer. Sorry.
    This is nothing but opinion, but I'd wager Howe is fully aware of his deficiencies (Most people are their own worst critics), but I think two things may contribute to why he still does it: one, the money; but two, and not to he overlooked as I've heard this from a number of other artists: feeling the love. When you've played in front of crowds as big as he has at times, from my own experience playing once (only!) in front of 10,000 people, I can see how that could become very addictive. And, also, playing live and continuing to either sell out or well-fill venues only serves to help some artists feel that they remain relevant.

    Again, just some thoughts; I've absolutely no facts to support anything about how and why Howe continues doing what he's doing. But I've both some personal experience and have heard, from other artists, about a number of specific successful musicians in jazz as well as prog concerning the "feel the love" factor. Hearing a few hundred people, all cheering for ya, can be a very powerful thing; feeling 10,000 doing it is like a great drug; and tens (or hundreds) of thousands? I can only imagine....
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  14. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    I think we all know that on any given night a band, no matter how great they are can have a bad night, but to release these performances as they were is surprising to me.
    There's no doubt that every musician has good, better and best nights, along with some they feel don't really meet their personal expectations. That said, of groups/artists at this level, I expect a certain baseline of competency, which means that some nights may well be transcendent, but other nights are still absolutely good to very good. With the understanding that musicians who take a lot of risks face a greater challenge of meeting that baseline, but I have to say, for example, that I've not seen a single show (and I've seen many) from artists including Pat Metheny, Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Christian Scott aTunde Adjuah, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Dave Liebman, Vic Juris, Tord Gustavsen and Nils Petter Molvćr, to name a few jazzers, or Steven Wilson, the current King Crimson and new millennium Van der Graaf Generator, to name three, who have put on anything less than a very good show, with occasional ascents into the transcendent.

    So, and with all due respect, when I hear a band like the Howe Yes veer from good to very bad? That's when I think it's time to consider packing it in. That said, the Lyon live release was a very, very good one...but, sadly, a surprise from this band. It made me think they could maybe regain their strength again, but nothing I've heard since then has supported that hope.

    And I say these things with great regret as I really do have a major soft spot for Yes at their best. But if a band can no longer ensure a baseline show that is, at the very least, well-executed if not inspired (solid time, un-pitchy vocals/vocal harmonies and playing, and few - if any - discernible flubs or train wrecks, even if there might be some noticeable only to the group and the hardest of hardcore fans are a few of my criteria), then it may be time to consider throwing in the towel.
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  15. #190
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    Wow. Sorry to hear these reviews from people’s who love Yes. They are or were all about consummate musicianship in my mind so let’s hope it doesn’t diminish their wonderful legacy. Terribly complex and challenging music to play for anyone no less senior citizens.
    Last edited by Buddhabreath; 08-11-2019 at 07:32 PM.

  16. #191
    Interesting reading some of the comments from folks who've bought this live release.. doesn't sound like the show I saw during their 50th tour.. and comparing it to the show I saw this summer sounds like they're talking about a completely different band.. Is this simply a matter of the wrong nights were chosen? I agree it's tough to expect a band to hit 100% every night.. Even Yessongs was put together with some creative licensing from Eddie..

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post

    So, and with all due respect, when I hear a band like the Howe Yes veer from good to very bad? That's when I think it's time to consider packing it in. That said, the Lyon live release was a very, very good one...but, sadly, a surprise from this band. It made me think they could maybe regain their strength again, but nothing I've heard since then has supported that hope.
    I would challenge you to point to any instance of the current Yes band being "very bad". There are a few dozen 2018-2019 boots up for your listening pleasure at yessongs.nl. I have listened to several over the last few weeks and for the most part have really enjoyed them.

    Sure there are realities that one may not like such as the fact that GD cannot play all of Wakeman's parts note for note, most noticeably in CTTE. But there are compensating moments like the downright transcendent harmonies of JD and BS on the "I get up I get down" part.

    Anyway give 'em a listen and let us know exactly where and when you feel they were "bad". I won't even insist on "very bad".

  18. #193
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    I'll bite, as yes is an absolute fave for me going back to high school. Listen to Yes 50's version of Awaken. After Downes's butchering of the intro, which I expected so I don't even count that, listen to the guitar solos about one third of the way into the song. It was hearing this section of Awaken for the first time that made my tween self want to play the guitar! That song, but in particular Howe, blew me away. GFTO was my first Yes record. I remember boasting the next day at school how my new main man Steve Howe could put Jimmy Page to shame haha. Oh to be 12 again, right?
    In all seriousness, listen to the way Howe plays those solos on this recording in celebration of 50 years of Yes. It's awful in every way. He doesn't try to play all the notes anymore but even those he does play come off muddled to death, at least to my ears.

  19. #194
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    Honestly, I think Billy just has tin ears at this point and shouldn't be mixing their albums. I saw this tour and it was about as good and spirited as any show since Billy and Jay came along. That's more spirited than the last few tours with Chris, unfortunately. So I think something was lost in "translation".

  20. #195
    Yes 50 Live works a treat when you listen to it quietly in bed in that 30 minutes before you slip into the land of Morpheus. That way you won't notice any of those annoying slips in the way the songs are played.

    It's also very soothing when you are getting hot under the collar reading about Boris Johnson and Brexit in the paper.

    Yes 50 Live definitely works for me!

    And judging by the comments from the musicians in the booklet about their unity and sense of purpose there's definitely more to come!

  21. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    I would challenge you to point to any instance of the current Yes band being "very bad". There are a few dozen 2018-2019 boots up for your listening pleasure at yessongs.nl. I have listened to several over the last few weeks and for the most part have really enjoyed them.
    I look at it from purely technical perspectives. So, amongst the issues that render this current lineup problematic for me, and fairly consistently, so just pick any more uptempo tune as an example...you'll find 'em there:

    1. Time. Or lack thereof. Whether the play tunes too slow (I can understand slight shifts in tempo, of course, but some songs are so slow as to feel dirge-like), or time fluctuates within a song (reminding me of ELP-era Carl Palmer, though he ultimately got his shit together), this is a band that has some serious problems with what musicians call "good time."
    2. Howe cannot play as he used to. And I'm not insensitive to the ravages of aging, but like Keith Emerson in his later days (and, of course, with respect and RIP), Howe has become a sloppy player who has trouble cleanly articulating phrases he once managed with aplomb and consistency. If his fingers can't do what they used to, just like a singer whose voice often deepens with age and loses upper register capability, rather than trying to do what he used to, he'd be better off trying something else. A great example of a singer who has adapted really well is Robert Plant; he no longer tries to make those stratospheric notes he used so easily. Same thing for any musician: If you don't adapt, your deficiencies become all too clear; if you adapt by changing how you approach the music, then nobody notices (or, more likely, cares), because what they are doing works.
    3. I don't expect GD to replicate Wakeman note for note. Aside from him simply not being as virtuosic a keyboardist, where"s the fun in that? But the problem is that he's far more limited stylistically, harmonically and, again, when it comes to time. Personally, I think Yes would have been better off sticking with Oliver Wakeman, for the brief period when he worked with them before being unceremoniously dumped for GD.
    4. While I actually think Jon Davison is a good enough singer (minus the accent attempts) - I loved him with Glass Hammer, and even reviewed their album If, writing:

    It would be easy to criticize Glass Hammer for sounding too much like Yes—especially with new singer Jon Davison a close double to Anderson—but the plain truth is that If is everything today's Yes isn't: energetic, creative...and egoless.
    And
    ... [If], in contrast to the tired, overblown anachronism of Yes 2011—is committed...from Babb's punchy bass lines and analogue synth work, and Schendel's organ and mellotron, to Shikoh's tart guitar and electric sitar lines...it suggests how Yes might have evolved, had it avoided the massive egos and creative missteps that have created a revolving door of legacy members.
    That's not to suggest Davison is a perfect substitute for Anderson; but of the members of the current lineup, he strikes me as the most accomplished (again, accent attempts aside). No, his voice isn't as warm, round and comfy as Anderson's, but he's got the range and, more often than not, hits his marks.

    That I happen to dislike GD's textural choices is another issue, but that falls into the realm of opinion, not fact, and I'm trying to stick to facts here, because opinions are subjective and less intrinsically valid when objectively assessing a subject. Not that folks' opinions don't matter; they do. But everybody hears things differently, and so form different opinions about the same music. Great stuff for discussion on a bulletin board, but not the same as looking at cold, hard facts. And that's what I'm trying to do.

    And that's really where we are. OTOH, such technical deficiencies affect listeners differently. Some don't notice or care about wildly fluctuating time, or that songs are being played far too many clicks slower than the original. I do. Some folks don't notice sloppy playing, others do. And some don't find harmonic deficiencies problematic, as long as they (in this case, GD) largely replicate the original...if not precisely, then well enough to feel like the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    Sure there are realities that one may not like such as the fact that GD cannot play all of Wakeman's parts note for note, most noticeably in CTTE. But there are compensating moments...
    I'm afraid I've too much other music to write about than to spend hours listening to bootlegs to hear what I've already heard on live releases, with the exception of Lyon, which I thought was quite good. From samples of Yes 50 Live at ProStudioMasters and a variety of YouTube videos, I've heard enough to find that Yes in 2019 is, at best, consistently inconsistent. They likely have some good nights (though I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call them transcendent), but I've yet to hear anything that remotely resembles great...and not just the greatness of their glory days, but a band that has been unable to adapt to the generally unavoidable ravages of aging.

    Unlike, say, fellow septuagenarians Van der Graaf Generator, who have adapted to being a trio after spending their classic years as a quartet, and also to the challenges of playing their music many years later with aging hands, feet and vocal chords...not to mention delivering new music that is often as good (at least IMO) as their music of decades past.

    I am perfectly prepared to give any musician a break who is getting on in years, and is challenged to play his/her classic era music. But the key is that they have to be prepared to acknowledge the changes they're undergoing and, most importantly, adapt to them. Again, Robert Plant comes to mind as a singer, along with groups like Van der Graaf Generator.

    Another example: While I know it didn't necessarily go over well with all his existing fans, I thought that Peter Gabriel's orchestral arrangements of his music reflected a guy looking for another way to play his songs while, at the same time, adapting to an aging voice with decreased range. I loved UP; live I have to say that it seemed he was falling back to some issues he had in his early Genesis days - most notably insufficient stamina to make it through a complete show without starting to lost his upper range by around midpoint in the set.

    By the time Gabriel went solo, I figure he must have had a vocal coach, as he seemed to get over that problem for most of his solo career...until he toured UP, when the problem began to rear its head again. But while I'm not sure all of his stage movements work for a guy his age and with, as he puts it so self-effacingly, "expanding girth" (), his voice was in much better form for his New/Live Blood tour and, also, in a more electric manner, during his Back to Front tour, where he has clearly figured out how to conserve his stamina so that when he really needs to hit those high notes, he can, because he isn't doing it as often.

    So it's really about adapting. And slowing songs down to sometimes as much as 2/3 their original tempo isn't driving the musicians adapt to the problem, it's forcing the music to adapt to it, in which case the only thing that suffers is the music. Using Howe as an example, he needs to find a way to articulate the essence of his glory days while not actually playing as he once did. Adapting, as Plant has, means great shows that are different, to be sure, but they're much better than were he to try to hit those now-impossible notes he once reached with ease.

    And hey, if none of these things bug you? That's totally fine and all power to ya. And my saying so is not a judgement on your ears or sense of time; things affect people differently, and while years of doing studio dates has made me extremely sensitive to bad time, for many it's just not that big a deal. But, like it or not, Yes' overall inability (or lack of willingness) to adapt to the impact of time renders them a pale shadow of their former selves, at least in my books.

    Perhaps I was a little excessive when I said "veering from very good to very bad," and should say, more fairly, "veering from very good to, at best, something far less than what they were once capable of." But it all comes down to the same thing: having had the good fortune of seeing Yes in its prime, between 1971 and 1978 many times, I just can't listen to them now, because they have not adapted to the ravages of age, as some artists I've mentioned (I can cite others, but I'm not looking to create a laundry list; I think three examples should suffice).

    And while I'm sure I've not heard as many Yes shows from the last year or two as you have, I also don't feel like I need to, as I've heard enough to support my perspective.

    YMMV, as they say, and again: if you're diggin' on 'em, then that's great. But I truly cannot....and I wish it were otherwise, as it brings me no pleasure to say these things about a band that was massively influential in my formative years as an aspiring guitarist. I loved the band then, still love what they could be now, but feel badly that they have been unable to find a way to manage with increasing physical limitations.

    Hope this, at the very least, helps explain things to you, even if you don't agree with my points (though those initial four are difficult to challenge; it comes down more to whether or nor they matter to you) or don't care. If Yes still sends shivers up your back, then I'm happy for you, truly...and wish they still could for me, as they once did.

    Cheers!
    John
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  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post

    Perhaps I was a little excessive when I said "veering from very good to very bad," and should say, more fairly, "veering from very good to, at best, something far less than what they were once capable of."
    Thanks John for the thorough reply! I understand your perspective based on your re-phrasing. I still don't agree but as always M&YMMV... It does all come down to different expectations, previous experiences, etc.

    I'm actually surprised myself how much I am digging these new shows. I'm only listening to them so much because I am truly enjoying them. I've listened to a lot of 1970s Yes shows too and obviously a lot of those are really great but the new ones are not merely inferior substitutes. They add something fresh and new to the Yes canon.

    Howe may not be quite as nimble as in the past but in terms of the beauty and the colors he gets out of his notes, I think he's at a recent peak. The band is more loose, but I don't think sloppy, I think they are actively listening to each other and propelling the music forward as needed. Anyway, give them another listen at some point, you may be pleasantly surprised!

  23. #198
    I've been enjoying these live rarities outtakes and mistakes on you tube (Yes Live Rarities 1974 Through 2003 / Rare Performances, Tributes and Mistakes Live Onstage) and came upon the (Gates Of Delirium / Relayer Hollywood Bowl 1:25:00 / 07/30/01 / Jon forgets the opening lyrics and stops the song dead in its tracks.) and have again been reminded just how good Yes was warts and all through the years. This Gates track is a simple reminder of the levels that Yes could attain. It would be hard to say who plays the best in this particular cut, and not to take away from anyone else, but, I've gotta say Alan is on fire here. and a huge thanks to Tom Brislin again just for being consistently outstanding. The next cut "in The Presence Of" shows again just how good things could be, and again, Alan knocks it outta the park,This may be why it is so hard for me to be comfortable listening to the newer live concerts. And I'm not knocking the Yes of today but for me the memories of the past are much sweeter. Thanks a million to markbarbour5 for posting this most wonderful Video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFTiskig9nA)

  24. #199
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    ^^^^ Thanks for the link.

  25. #200
    This is amusing, from the description:

    "11) Owner Of A Lonely Heart / 90125 53:08 Hartwall Arena, Helsinki, Finland / 12/4/01 / During the 70 date Yessymphonic tour of 2001, OOALH was only played 6 times. Steve Howe gets pretty close to the original Rabin guitar solo done for this song."

    The solo is spot on Rabin's solo, yes. Because Brislin played it on the keys during his tenure with the band.

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