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Thread: Do you think that 10s is a great decade for Prog?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    On this board, these discussions are always derailed by the same little arrogant group of people who are incessantly enamored with their own perceived sophistication. It just gets to be a sickening spectacle time and time again.
    Thanks for bringing this to the table.
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  2. #52
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    don't know if you're addressing to me specifically, but outside the metal and neo subgenres, I'm into a lot of music
    Same here... and since music appreciation is very subjective, there are probably many things you like that don't light my fire either
    Last edited by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER; 05-11-2019 at 12:25 AM.
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    While you're surely being colorful in your words, the 10s were by far the worst decade for Prog - outside of perhaps the 80s...
    How can the 80s not be a great decade for prog when Tears For Fears put out THREE albums then, and not even hitting the peak until Orzabal's 1996 Raoul and the Kings of Spain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    How can the 80s not be a great decade for prog when Tears For Fears put out THREE albums then, and not even hitting the peak until Orzabal's 1996 Raoul and the Kings of Spain?
    Well, Tears For Fears released at least one "proggy" song.


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    Quote Originally Posted by miamiscot View Post
    (...)

    Gong

    (...)
    How could I forget to mention I See You CD already in the opening post?
    Last edited by daoubourg; 05-14-2019 at 03:31 AM. Reason: mistyped album title

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    How can the 80s not be a great decade for prog when Tears For Fears put out THREE albums then, and not even hitting the peak until Orzabal's 1996 Raoul and the Kings of Spain?
    Bonus points to yami for tongue-in-cheekiness.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by daoubourg View Post
    Well, Tears For Fears released at least one "proggy" song.
    More than two!


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    While you're surely being colorful in your words, the 10s were by far the worst decade for Prog - outside of perhaps the 80s...perhaps
    80's were a great decade for avantheads though mostly discovered after the fact, 90's were much worse and the nadir from my perspective.
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  9. #59
    ^ AFAIC, both the 80s and 90s were highly interesting decades for a 'progressive rock' which took its actual avant-garde origin (1968-75) to task and thus sometimes created damn new and damn fine, albeit often with the humblest of financial and/or artistic means.

    Nowadays, "rock" as such is finally at an old and weary age of benevolent defeat. Oblivion next, then indifferent death.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  10. #60
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    80's were a great decade for avantheads though mostly discovered after the fact, 90's were much worse and the nadir from my perspective.
    Sure. I can see that perspective, but even the avant scene can't save the 80s as a whole imo. Most of the higher tier stuff was confined to a handful of groups and to the first few years of the decade. The rest were virtually all "diamonds in the rough". And once you get past 1984, it gets pretty bleak pretty fast. I'm not trying to put down the great music made, just that it pales in comparison to other decades imo. The 90s had the whole "resurgence". While there was a lot of post-neo stuff that didn't age well at all, there's too much to ignore there including a steady avant prog scene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    80's were a great decade for avantheads though mostly discovered after the fact, 90's were much worse and the nadir from my perspective.
    Well, it's not like there were tons of RIO/Avant prog albums in terms of sheer numbers, not even consudering the ones that were great either...
    And back then as you say, you had to be a real international undergrounder to know of stuff like Debile Menthol, MTGuild, Avenue Louise, Daniel Schell & Karo, the first couple of Thinking Plague, or even Univers Zero... Remember that in their first life UZ only played 25 concerts (in Belgium and neighbouring countries), having played easily three times that amount across the planet between 2005 and whenever they played their last one in their second life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Sure. I can see that perspective, but even the avant scene can't save the 80s as a whole imo. Most of the higher tier stuff was confined to a handful of groups and to the first few years of the decade. The rest were virtually all "diamonds in the rough". And once you get past 1984, it gets pretty bleak pretty fast. I'm not trying to put down the great music made, just that it pales in comparison to other decades imo. The 90s had the whole "resurgence". While there was a lot of post-neo stuff that didn't age well at all, there's too much to ignore there including a steady avant prog scene.
    +/- my thoughts as well... and indeed it does get worse well beforethe start of the second half of the decade.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    and indeed it does get worse well beforethe start of the second half of the decade.
    The 80s were a golden decade for Manfred Eicher's ECM Records. Thus, second half of the 80s has been "saved" by a number of ingenious and "proggy" albums released on ECM. For instance, Cloud About Mercury (1987) by David Torn, Mark Isham, Tony Levin and Bill Brufford, Crossings (1985) and Ecotopia (1989) by Oregon, Exploded View (1986) and Big Map Idea (1989) by Steve Tibbetts, Chaser (1985), Blue (1987) and The Singles Collection (1989) by Terje Rypdal, Legend Of The Seven Dreams (1988) by Jan Garbarek, to name a few. All these albums are the masterpieces that passed the time test and all of them were popular among the progheads.

    EDIT: Some progheads discovered ECM records already in the seventies with amazing albums like The Koln Concert (1975) by Keith Jarrett, Solstice (1975) by Ralph Towner, After The Rain (1976) by Terje Rypdal, Grazing Dreams (1977) by Collin Walcott, Fluid Rustle (1979) by Eberhard Weber, s/t album by Terje Rypdal / Miroslav Vitous / Jack DeJohnette (1979) and so on, but they became really keen for ECM records in the 80s and especially in the mid to the second-half of the decade. These certain albums from great Manfred Eicher's production, due to their pastoral, dreamy and melancholic atmosphere, were perfectly suited to the taste of the progheads.
    Although the ECM albums weren't Prog at all (btw, jazz purists didn't consider them Jazz either), for the then progheads that fanciful ECM stuff successfully covered "the black hole" that came about in the mid to second half of the decade when too many Progressive rock bands were disbanded and (or) turned to commercial Pop-Rock music.
    Last edited by daoubourg; 05-12-2019 at 03:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daoubourg View Post
    The 80s were a golden decade for Manfred Eicher's ECM Records. Thus, second half of the 80s has been "saved" by a number of ingenious and "proggy" albums released on ECM. For instance, Cloud About Mercury (1987) by David Torn, Mark Isham, Tony Levin and Bill Brufford, Crossings (1985) and Ecotopia (1989) by Oregon, Exploded View (1986) and Big Map Idea (1989) by Steve Tibbetts, Chaser (1985), Blue (1987) and The Singles Collection (1989) by Terje Rypdal, Legend Of The Seven Dreams (1988) by Jan Garbarek, to name a few. All these albums are the masterpieces that passed the time test and all of them were popular among the progheads.

    Although the ECM albums weren't Prog at all (btw, jazz purists didn't consider them Jazz either), for the then progheads that fanciful ECM stuff successfully covered "the black hole" that came about in the mid to second half of the decade when too many Progressive rock bands were disbanded and (or) turned to commercial Pop-Rock music.
    Mmhhh, to each his own!!!!... TBH, even in the jazz realm, the 80's weren't a "good" decade, especially when considering the 80's & 70's before it.
    Remember that the 80's were the "smooth/soft jazz" decade, to which ECM contributed its fair share.
    And like pop-rock, much of jazz also somewhat most of its groundbeaking edge it still had in the 70's.... Best proof would be the Marsalis' emergence as a return to its 50's integrity (well mostly one of the brothers's doing, forget whether it was Wynton or Brandford)

    ECM was maybe somewhat an exception at the 80's dearth, but their later 80's releases' respective quality (seen as a whole) weren't as good as the label's first 15 years' releases either (IMHO). One of the label best-known 'star" Pat Metheny somewhat typifies that: his most iconic releases were pre-85
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Mmhhh, to each his own!!!!... TBH, even in the jazz realm, the 80's weren't a "good" decade, especially when considering the 80's & 70's before it.
    Remember that the 80's were the "smooth/soft jazz" decade, to which ECM contributed its fair share.
    And like pop-rock, much of jazz also somewhat most of its groundbeaking edge it still had in the 70's.... Best proof would be the Marsalis' emergence as a return to its 50's integrity (well mostly one of the brothers's doing, forget whether it was Wynton or Brandford)

    ECM was maybe somewhat an exception at the 80's dearth, but their later 80's releases' respective quality (seen as a whole) weren't as good as the label's first 15 years' releases either (IMHO). One of the label best-known 'star" Pat Metheny somewhat typifies that: his most iconic releases were pre-85
    But even more proggy ECM guitarist than Metheny, Terje Rypdal, masterfully created his awesome stuff throughout the whole decade, and he's certainly not the only one. I've already mentioned David Torn and his Cloud About Mercury (feat. Levin, Isham and Brufford) LP released in 1987. I'd like to mention here also Mark Isham and Art Lande duo LP from 1987. Or stunning live album by Michael Mantler with Jack Bruce, Rick Fenn, Don Preston, John Greaves and Nick Mason that also was released in "bad" 1987. Well, it's pretty undeniable that ECM didn't face a decline in quality until the 90's.

    Terje Rypdal and The Chasers live 1985:


    Michael Mantler live 1987
    Last edited by daoubourg; 05-12-2019 at 05:46 AM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by daoubourg View Post
    But even more proggy ECM guitarist than Metheny, Terje Rypdal, masterfully created his awesome stuff throughout the whole decade, and he's certainly not the only one. I've already mentioned David Torn and his Cloud About Mercury (feat. Levin, Isham and Brufford) LP released in 1987. I'd like to mention here also Mark Isham and Art Lande duo LP from 1987. Or stunning live album by Michael Mantler with Jack Bruce, Rick Fenn, Don Preston, John Greaves and Nick Mason that also was released in "bad" 1987. Well, it's pretty undeniable that ECM didn't face a decline in quality until the 90's.
    Again, I'm not saying that ECM didn't produce good albums post-85, just that they didn't shell them out as often as in their frst 15 years

    Rypdal's most iconic albums date from the 70's, Steve Tibbets as well, the best Oregon's best albums weren't even on ECM, Mantler's poorest albums came in the late-80's, etc.... and I'm not sure Keith Jarrett released much in the later-80's.

    of course all of this (here and in previous posts) is IMHO, but it seems to be shared somewhat by a lot of people
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Again, I'm not saying that ECM didn't produce good albums post-85, just that they didn't shell them out as often as in their frst 15 years

    Rypdal's most iconic albums date from the 70's, Steve Tibbets as well, the best Oregon's best albums weren't even on ECM, Mantler's poorest albums came in the late-80's, etc.... and I'm not sure Keith Jarrett released much in the later-80's.

    of course all of this (here and in previous posts) is IMHO, but it seems to be shared somewhat by a lot of people
    Well, prior to Northern Song LP on ECM (1982), Steve Tibbetts was a virtually unknow artist who released only one album in 1970s, all Oregon's albums for ECM are magnificent at their own and I really don't see what could have been "poor" on Mantler's Live album from 1987...

  17. #67
    Well stuff like this has been coming out this decade so I think we're doing pretty good:



  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Again, I'm not saying that ECM didn't produce good albums post-85, just that they didn't shell them out as often as in their frst 15 years

    Rypdal's most iconic albums date from the 70's, Steve Tibbets as well, the best Oregon's best albums weren't even on ECM, Mantler's poorest albums came in the late-80's, etc.... and I'm not sure Keith Jarrett released much in the later-80's.

    of course all of this (here and in previous posts) is IMHO, but it seems to be shared somewhat by a lot of people
    Agreed. And while albums like Cloud About Mercury are lauded here, it has not aged well imo. ECM fell prey to cheesy synth tones, gated drums, and 80s production values. This begins to show around 1984 or so until about the mid 90s. The early 80s still had a great deal of consistently solid material.

    FWIW, my tops from that 2nd half of the 80s and early 90s include: Paul Bley (Fragments and Quartet with Frisell, Surman, Motian), Dave Holland Extensions (with Steve Coleman and Kevin Eubanks), Abercrombie/Johnson/Erskine, Masqualero (Bande a Part, Aero - Norwegian supergroup), Azimuth '85 (though prefer the earlier work), Arild Andersen - Sagn, Egberto Gismonti - Danca dos Escravos, Motian/Frisell /Lovano - It Should've Happened a Long Time Ago, Gary Peacock - Guamba, and a few others.

    Again, we can all point out anecdotal evidence of great albums from the 80s, but that doesn't change anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Agreed. And while albums like Cloud About Mercury are lauded here, it has not aged well imo. ECM fell prey to cheesy synth tones, gated drums, and 80s production values. This begins to show around 1984 or so until about the mid 90s. The early 80s still had a great deal of consistently solid material.

    FWIW, my tops from that 2nd half of the 80s and early 90s include: Paul Bley (Fragments and Quartet with Frisell, Surman, Motian), Dave Holland Extensions (with Steve Coleman and Kevin Eubanks), Abercrombie/Johnson/Erskine, Masqualero (Bande a Part, Aero - Norwegian supergroup), Azimuth '85 (though prefer the earlier work), Arild Andersen - Sagn, Egberto Gismonti - Danca dos Escravos, Motian/Frisell /Lovano - It Should've Happened a Long Time Ago, Gary Peacock - Guamba, and a few others.

    Again, we can all point out anecdotal evidence of great albums from the 80s, but that doesn't change anything.
    Whether Cloud About Mercury has aged well or not, that's for some other discussion. However, I can safely say that back in 1987 the album was extremely well recieved by the progheads as a mind-blowing release aswell as surely the proggiest ECM album released in the 80s.
    Btw, also well received back then and also regarded as a "proggy" ECM album, that I forgot to mention above, is Song For Everyone by violinist L. Shankar (feat. Jan Garbarek, Zakir Hussain and Trilok Gurtu) from 1985.



    Cloud About Mercury live in Frankfurt 1987



    I can also listed a number of more straight jazz albums released on the same label that are fine with some fine musicians played on them, but my point was something else. In the 80s, ECM produced enough of very exciting - at least for that time - and proggy stuff that therefore even the progheads had something to listen from one jazz label at the time when their full-blown Prog favourities from the Golden Decade finally went down the toilet.
    Last edited by daoubourg; 05-13-2019 at 04:59 AM. Reason: the vid that didn't work

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    A lot of nice spacey & krauty stuff has been released in this decade. Honorable mention:




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