GAME OF THRONES: Final season (8) discussion

[Steve983]

How did Dany not see Euron's fleet before being attacked? If it had been in the script she could have attacked back and flamed the lot of them. Once again, no build up which I find very disappointing. It's like anything can happen out of the blue like last week.

It was a better episode that last week's though, things are starting to get messy as they should. Missandei was unlucky to get captured when the others managed to swim ashore..

[BravadoNJ]

once it's over i'll watch Black Adder season one.... which is pretty much the same story with a British humor twist.

[Plasmatopia]

Also, why wouldn't Dany fly her remaining dragon at night and come in behind those ships and burn them all, it looked like the dragon spears were mounted on the front of the ships and could only fire forward...

Or, after she was able to steer clear of the second volley of arrows, she could have swooped across from the side or from behind and burned the crap out of those ships before they could reload.

[Poisoned Youth]

Based on the scuttlebutt I'm reading, it seems there are definitely lots of critics of this past episode. I suppose if this was the first time the story writing was lazy, rushed, or stretching credibility, this might stand out to me. But at this point I'm along for the ride.

[Progatron]

I'm just enjoying the show myself. I'm not too concerned about applying cold logic and reason to a fantasy story about magic swords and fire-breathing dragons, but to each their own I suppose.

[Klonk]

I'm just enjoying the show myself. I'm not too concerned about applying cold logic and reason to a fantasy story about magic swords and fire-breathing dragons, but to each their own I suppose.

Yep. The nitpicking is hilarious...and kinda sad.

I love that Arya and The Hound are back traveling together

[Poisoned Youth]

I'm just enjoying the show myself. I'm not too concerned about applying cold logic and reason to a fantasy story about magic swords and fire-breathing dragons, but to each their own I suppose.

For me it's not logic and reason, but there are a few things that will irritate me for a show like this with such a long story arc that its viewers invest plenty of time (and even money) over the years. The fact that it's in the realm of historical fantasy doesn't give it a free pass. There is big time talent and energy gathered together to make this project successful. It's not b-movie fiction nor some cheap romance novel.

I feel the same way about how Disney has handled the storytelling of Star Wars, another silly fantasy franchise. There's no excuse for the talent at Disney to be so dysfunctional in how they have handled things to date. It's a mess over there.

Back to GoT, when they decide "hey we're going to kill this dragon" but don't come up with a believable way of doing it (not to mention that Drogon could/should have also been hit since apparently they are marksman), then it just becomes sloppy and only to serve dramatic effect. I think Arya impersonating Walter Frey in front of everyone also really stretches the "many face" thing a bit far (considering she could talk like him as well). Contrast that to the Red Wedding or some of the better executed (no pun intended) scenes, and it pales in comparison.

Other criticisms, like social justice outrage at how Missandei was killed, and last week's outrage that the Dothraki dying was a reflection that minority lives don't have value, are the ones that I ignore completely.

[Plasmatopia]

I really am not heavily invested in this series like I was with something as near and dear to my heart as Lord Of The Rings and The Hobbit were. I try not to get hung up on all the details which is probably why a lot of things slip past me unnoticed. I barely remember all the details from the last season (let alone the earlier ones) so if they changed the rules on me between seasons I might not notice, lol. But some things are just a slap in the face that kicks me out of the story. I have to consciously force myself to ignore certain details and jump back in.

Other criticisms, like social justice outrage at how Missandei was killed, and last week's outrage that the Dothraki dying was a reflection that minority lives don't have value, are the ones that I ignore completely.

I saw another one that criticized Theon's and Jaime's redemption arcs...and that women didn't experience redemption in the series. Whatever....it's a fantasy world and the rules of society are entirely fictional. Building your life's meaning around this story would be like committing suicide after listening to Ozzy or whatever.

[Progatron]

For me it's not logic and reason

We agree to disagree there, as you've gone on to do just that re: the dragons, Arya/Walder Frey, etc. - However, I was referring to the general comments I've seen all over the place about this stuff, rather than any one person here.

Other criticisms, like social justice outrage at how Missandei was killed, and last week's outrage that the Dothraki dying was a reflection that minority lives don't have value, are the ones that I ignore completely.

Ugh. Fortunately I haven't seen much of that, I would also ignore that completely. I'm mostly seeing people playing armchair quarterback regarding the coffee cup debacle, and of course the usual social media memes where the cool kids are letting the world know that they've "Never seen an episode of GOT" (who cares?)

[Poisoned Youth]

We agree to disagree there, as you've gone on to do just that re: the dragons, Arya/Walder Frey, etc. - However, I was referring to the general comments I've seen all over the place about this stuff, rather than any one person here.

Understood. My point is that sometimes (and more often lately), the show suffers from sloppy storytelling. And when you're used to seeing the show do it right, it stands out.

Ugh. Fortunately I haven't seen much of that, I would also ignore that completely. I'm mostly seeing people playing armchair quarterback regarding the coffee cup debacle, and of course the usual social media memes where the cool kids are letting the world know that they've "Never seen an episode of GOT" (who cares?)

The coffee thing is somewhat amusing. As someone who has edited video, one can definitely miss stuff like that. But how something like that gets unnoticed by the rest of the post production team and producers is amazing. There are some funny memes about it though...

[NogbadTheBad]

I'm all caught up now, I'm certainly going to have to watch episode 3 again when i get back to focus on the details. I've really enjoyed 3 & 4 and haven't gotten hung up on some of the criticism, overall its still stunningly good. I really hope that smirk gets wiped of Cersei's face.

I'll up date the table next week when I'm back from France.

[Progatron]

Understood. My point is that sometimes (and more often lately), the show suffers from sloppy storytelling. And when you're used to seeing the show do it right, it stands out.

Yes, I can understand that. My own criticisms tend to hone in on character interaction, and I never like sloppy writing in that regard. When this is all over, I highly recommend the books if you want to see the story done right (and no sloppiness, I promise). I know us book readers tend to drone on and on about them, but it's for good reason. You mentioned the Red Wedding, for example. I loved it on the show, but my jaw absolutely dropped when it happened in the book.

[Buddhabreath]

How did Dany not see Euron's fleet before being attacked? If it had been in the script she could have attacked back and flamed the lot of them. Once again, no build up which I find very disappointing. It's like anything can happen out of the blue like last week.

Because Dany sucks and it's time for her to die.

It was a better episode that last week's though, things are starting to get messy as they should. Missandei was unlucky to get captured when the others managed to swim ashore..

I'm in the opposite corner: last week's episode was a finely crafted and polished gem, this week's was more like a sloppy paper mache mickey mouse. It feels like there was a little exhaustion in the writing room and they somewhat ran out of ideas and just stretched it out to 80 minutes for whatever reason.

Other criticisms, like social justice outrage at how Missandei was killed, and last week's outrage that the Dothraki dying was a reflection that minority lives don't have value, are the ones that I ignore completely.

Hey! Dothraki lives matter!

[Jerjo]

The sloppy writing grates on me. Seasons 1-4 were TIGHT, drawing on the books (which themselves are meticulously crafted). But then the seams began to show. Characters doing things they'd never do in the books (Jaimie raping his sister) and characters whose fate had been changed or killed from the books (Lady Stoneheart being the prime example). My guess is that when they went past the books they knew what GRRM planned for the ending but they had no idea how to stick the landing. Martin's characters make mistakes right and left (Ned Stark and Catelyn) because they are humans who make mistakes. What we have seen is verging on Walking Dead territory - the only way to make the plot move forward the "good guys" have to do something heroically stupid.

Issac Asimov once said the speculative fiction requires you to believe one incredible thing and then a writer builds something believable around it. We have an incredible thing, a world with dragons and magic. When you have to suspend disbelief again and again because the writers can't move the plot forward without something ridiculous happening. "OK, we need to kill one of the dragons, so lets ambush them from a somewhat stationery position that is in no way defensible again a dragon". I just saw a Tweet from a fantasy/comic writer who said, "hilarious to think there were centuries and centuries of Targaryen rule via dragons and no one ever thought of just making a really big arrow before".

[Steve983]

It's becoming a huge disappointment. Didn't think they would mess it up like this

[Buddhabreath]

^^^
C'mon fellas, don't give up. They still have two episodes left to pull a "diamond out of a sulpher mine" as Peter Hammill might put it. :-)

King Tyrion is coming! <- homage to Tolkien where the little guys (hobbits) save the day and everyone bows down to them.

[Paulie]

foot-statue.jpg

[The Dark Elf]

So, episode 4. We just fought an army of the dead and buried thousands of corpses and you want me to go on a forced march?

That's fine, we'll simply employ an absurd amount of time compression that completely eliminates the need for marching, while completely destroying any suspension of disbelief.

Oh. Okay.

I must say, this was a very disappointing episode. Downright weird. For instance, one of your dragons just got skewered by huge arbelists borrowed from Bard in the second Hobbit movie (Middle-earth being just down the hall from the Seven Kingdoms, evidently), and instead of simply flying your dragon around to the rear of the fleet and incinerating the whole armada stern to bow, because sailing ships cannot maneuver that quickly, you fly directly at the ship with pointy things pointing directly at you. Right.

[NeonKnight]

The sloppy writing grates on me. Seasons 1-4 were TIGHT, drawing on the books (which themselves are meticulously crafted). But then the seams began to show. Characters doing things they'd never do in the books (Jaimie raping his sister) and characters whose fate had been changed or killed from the books (Lady Stoneheart being the prime example). My guess is that when they went past the books they knew what GRRM planned for the ending but they had no idea how to stick the landing. Martin's characters make mistakes right and left (Ned Stark and Catelyn) because they are humans who make mistakes. What we have seen is verging on Walking Dead territory - the only way to make the plot move forward the "good guys" have to do something heroically stupid.

Issac Asimov once said the speculative fiction requires you to believe one incredible thing and then a writer builds something believable around it. We have an incredible thing, a world with dragons and magic. When you have to suspend disbelief again and again because the writers can't move the plot forward without something ridiculous happening. "OK, we need to kill one of the dragons, so lets ambush them from a somewhat stationery position that is in no way defensible again a dragon". I just saw a Tweet from a fantasy/comic writer who said, "hilarious to think there were centuries and centuries of Targaryen rule via dragons and no one ever thought of just making a really big arrow before".

Well said Jerjo. Your second paragraph really hits the nail on the head.

HBO and D and D are hacks without Martin's text. (Even GRRM went off the rails with some of his later books like Feast of Crows but that takes me off the rails.) They have been trending straight down the last few seasons and the more they make "adaptions" and try to please the comic book obsessed and limited attention span masses the lower the quality bar goes...

Eyes rolling towards the back of my head as Cersei smirks and lets Dany turn away in a huff and march away without a thousand arrows embedded in her back.

[Dan Marsh]

4 episodes, 3 of which were set up episodes.

Half the season.

I was actually bored Sunday night.

That said I am looking forward to the last two episodes.

[Poisoned Youth]

They have been trending straight down the last few seasons and the more they make "adaptions" and try to please the comic book obsessed and limited attention span masses the lower the quality bar goes...

I find it difficult to disagree with this sentiment.

I first started watching GoT during season 4. Even though we binge watched the first three seasons, I think the biggest "criticism" I had of the early shows was that it was so dense. It was hard to digest and keep track of all of these various characters, families, etc. For that reason, I almost wouldn't recommend that people binge so much of the show. At the same time, around season 3/4/5, many of the characters became more compelling. One of the highlights of season 4 was Joffrey's wedding. I thought it was brilliantly executed and that is the moment I became a fan for the rest of the ride.

Another fun moment at the time for us non-book readers was after Jon was killed at The Wall at the end of season 5. This is when we were told that the story had essentially caught up with the books. This was great because I always avoided discussing the show for fear of spoilers.

Looking back on it, season 6 probably still had a great deal of GRRM influence (correct me if I'm wrong). It seemed logical Jon would be resurrected. It led to the Battle of the Bastards. It showed the rise of Dany. Many of the plot developments in the show seemed natural.

Season 7 things start to unravel. I'm not really fond of how they disassembled all the Lannister enemies one by one. When you consider that the strength of that house has dwindled since the start of the show, they somehow still became masters of strategy and were able to defeat everyone. It's also where time suddenly got compressed. Plots that would take several episodes to unfold are happening much quicker.

But the area in S7 that drew the most concern for me was the capturing of the wight to enlist Cersei to help them in their fight against the dead. If there was a "jump the shark" moment for me, this was it. It made for great action "fun" - hey we got to see an undead bear. But the idea that this group survives that mission is laughable, only to be made more absurd by Dany's timely arrival (Gendry can run fucking fast apparently). All of this done for two reasons - to have a "summit" at King's Landing to show Cersei the undead (which she then later dismisses as a threat she can give a shit about) and to create a scenario where TNK can resurrect a dragon, because that's really cool.

Now in season 8, it definitely feels as if this conclusion is meant for fans of The Avengers, not so much for fans of the books or those who watched the show from the beginning. It does bother me when things get sloppy. But I will still watch it through and hope for an ending that will satisfy me.

But I do think the criticism like Jerol shared is very valid. Like with the music we enjoy, one can be heavily invested and a fan, but also be critical. That separates from those who are looking for faults and join the chorus of trendy "haters" we see infest the internet.

[BobM]

I only have one real complaint about the last episode. When Missande was standing on top of the wall and Cersi came up behind her ...

... Why the hell didn't she just grab her and jump?

It would have all been over then. instead she just stands there and lets her head be chopped off with no resistance.

[Paulie]

My GF said the same exact thing.

[BobM]

Picture this as an exciting alternative ...

Missande grabs Cersi and they struggle on the edge. The mountain barrels up and grabs them just as all 3 topple over. The mountain twists and lands on his back with Cersi on top, saving her. Missande falls to the side breaking her legs. Cersi rolls off as the gates open and troops come rushing out to save her. The mountain gets up, walks over to Missande and still chops off her head, then is the last man to walk through the gate as it closes behind him.

[Jerjo]

From the beating a dead horse department, did anyone else notice the appearance of a plain in front of Kings Landing? A very different Kings Landing. It should be surrounded by either water or forest (and by now, that forest should be looking like its late fall). Just another quibble and another thing I'll have to hope that Martin lives to write about.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...tinuity-error/