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Thread: Reunion Tours Article

  1. #1
    sourdough advocate
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    Reunion Tours Article

    I read this in today's NY Times and had to smile. What happens when a band name becomes a brand name? This is a discussion which has occurred on this site more than once. Hawkwind and Yes came to mind right away. I had no idea about Foreigner's recent history.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/ar...gtype=Homepage
    When in doubt....

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    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Just read it. How Yes managed not to be singled out is amaze-balls.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  3. #3
    And possibly the most egregious example of a revolving-door band, the mighty Krim, weren't mentioned at all...
    Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.

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    All Things Must Pass spellbound's Avatar
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    There will be a concert this summer featuring Poco, Pure Prairie League, and Firefall. Among the people I wouldn't expect to see are Richie Furay, Jim Messina, Timothy Schmitt, Randy Meisner, George Grantham, Paul Cotton, George Powell, Craig Fuller, Vince Gill, Rick Roberts, Mark Andes, Larry Burnett, or the late Michael Clarke. Who will be there representing those bands, I haven't a clue.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    And possibly the most egregious example of a revolving-door band, the mighty Krim, weren't mentioned at all...
    Well, I dunno about "most egregious example". There's a lot of bands who would give them a run for their money in that department, most notably Hawkwind, I think. There's probably been more people who've been in Hawkwind over the last 5 (!!!!) decades than just about any other band I can think of. It took them something like a decade and a half to make two albums in a row with the exact same lineup. They'd have musicians who'd come in a fill in for a tour, then leave before the recording sessions for the next album or single or whatever. Even Dave Brock has reportedly occasionally gotten fed up with whatever and quit in the middle of a tour, forcing to the band to draft in someone else (usually a roadie, probably) to deputize until the end of the tour, by which time Dave had presumably come to his senses and pushed his way back in.

    But in that article Phil Carson is quoted as saying most people have no idea who was in Foreigner, and I'd say that's true of most bands. In most bands, there's like one or at best two guys, who most people, even people who claim to be fans, could pick out of a police lineup. Unless you're talking about The Beatles or maybe The Rolling Stones, most people have no idea who the drummer, bassist, keyboardist, etc are. Actually, in the case of The Stones, I imagine most people have no idea who anyone other than Mick and Keith are.

    And in bands that didn't have the kind of mainstream or tabloid media presence that The Beatles or The Stones had, people don't even really know who the lead singer is.

    That's my impression anyway. All this stuff that seems like "common knowledge" to me, apparently isn't to everyone else, and more to the point, a lot of them don't care. That's not the original bassist or drummer? So what? That's not the original singer? Well, he does a good job of singing the songs anyway!

    In a way, it's kind of an extension of what went with the Grateful Dead during the last 10 or so years of their existence, which was very up and down, in terms of quality. I remember seeing an interview with David Gans, who's written several books about the Dead and hosted the Grateful Dead Hour radio show. He said once that it got to a point around 83 or 84 where it was like the mere gesture of coming onstage was all most of the audience needed, and they didn't even seem to care when the band dropped a clunker of a show.

    But as other people have pointed out to me, the Grateful Dead live experience wasn't about the band playing awesomely, but more about that the "never ending party" and such. It was about how when you walked into the parking lot at a Dead show, it felt like you were in the company of however many thousands of people who hadn't gotten the memo that 1967 was over.

    People talk about how mediocre Elvis was during the last few years of his life, yet he could still pack out an arena.

    And Frank Sinatra was the same way. He reached a point where his memory started going, so he had to use a teleprompter. Then his eyesight started going, so he started wearing eyeglasses to see the teleprompter. Then his voice started to go, but as I understand he continued touring until his health got in the way.

    But seeing Elvis circa 1975 or Sinatra circa 1988 or whatever wasn't about seeing a great musical performance. It was about seeing someone famous, and being able to tell people "I saw Frank Sinatra in concert". He may not have even sang that well on the given night, but most people aren't going to remember that, depending on the venue and where the given audient is sitting, they might not have been able to hear him that well. What they're gonna remember is they saw a legendary singer, and they get to brag about that for the rest of their lives. So what if he was past his prime?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Just read it. How Yes managed not to be singled out is amaze-balls.
    They did mention Yes. I guess if you want an interview with a singer left out of the current version of his old band it's easier to get Dennis DeYoung than Jon Anderson.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    And possibly the most egregious example of a revolving-door band, the mighty Krim, weren't mentioned at all...
    I think because KC basically started out being a revolving door band they don't quite fall into this whole conversation. Also, the "replacements" in KC were usually so good (and I guess well thought-out) that many changes were seen as "positive" new eras for the band rather than trying to spread the brand too thin. I know this is pretty obvious, I'm just pointing it out in relation to this article.

    I guess it's not too surprising that they didn't mention "The Alarm," which has been able to continue with only singer/songwriter Mike Peters as an original member. I believe all the other original members are still alive, but at some point decided they didn't want to continue, but gave Peters their blessing for him to continue.

  8. #8
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    Good article. Entertaining.

  9. #9
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    If you think about it, it's no longer possible to make any money off recorded music. If old bands wish to continue earning anything off their past glory, they *HAVE* to hit the road again.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

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    All Things Must Pass spellbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist
    If you think about it, it's no longer possible to make any money off recorded music. If old bands wish to continue earning anything off their past glory, they *HAVE* to hit the road again.
    You got that right. Last time I saw Blue Oyster Cult, one of them was wearing a t-shirt that said, "Blue Oyster Cult - On Tour Forever"

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    Quote Originally Posted by spellbound View Post
    You got that right. Last time I saw Blue Oyster Cult, one of them was wearing a t-shirt that said, "Blue Oyster Cult - On Tour Forever"
    B.O.C has been selling various versions of that shirt for 30 years or more. I have one.

  12. #12
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Another problem with current tours is the economy of scale. Back in the day when bands filled arenas or stadiums, they could charge less per ticket because there were many more of them. Today they play 5,000 seat theaters, so they have to charge far more per ticket.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Another problem with current tours is the economy of scale. Back in the day when bands filled arenas or stadiums, they could charge less per ticket because there were many more of them. Today they play 5,000 seat theaters, so they have to charge far more per ticket.
    I think it's more complicated than that. I think the actual cost of going on tour, regardless of the size of venue has gone up. I'm talking about things like union regulations, insurance premiums (especially following the Great White Rhode Island debacle), etc have served to raise ticket prices. Also, I thikn there's a higher standard of thigns like employment benefits for road crew and such. Back in the 70's and 80's, you went on the road and you paid your roadies a per diem and that was it. But now, I believe it's become common that they're treated like employees of any other large company, i.e. you have to have a 401 K, worker's comp, etc lined up.

    I've also seen some venues charging a "restoration" fee, like if you're playing in a theater or hall that's been there for 50 years or more, the venue owners charge a fee that's theoretically going into a fund to keep up the restoration of those old buildings.

    Also, the high ticket prices exist in the bigger venues too. Now, back in 2003, I saw The Other Ones (surviving original members of the Grateful Dead) play Gund Arena for, I believe $43. I reasonably certain I paid at least 20-30 bucks per show for each of the other shows I saw at Gund Arena during the two or three years on either side of that one, which would include Roger Waters (1999), The Who (2000), Kiss (also 2000), Rush (2003, I believe), and Peter Gabriel (also 2003).

    But then, The Other Ones didn't have lasers, pyro, or a human sized hamster ball. They had a relative simple lighting rig, with a projection screen that showed a liquid light show. That was about it. I imagine transporting all that extra equipment for the purposes of presenting "a show", not just "a band performing music", along with hiring the techs and other crew people who are needed to deal with that stuff, and once again the insurance also adds to ticket prices.
    Last edited by GuitarGeek; 03-24-2019 at 05:04 PM.

  14. #14
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I think it's more complicated than that. I think the actual cost of going on tour, regardless of the size of venue has gone up. I'm talking about things like union regulations, insurance premiums (especially following the Great White Rhode Island debacle), etc have served to raise ticket prices. Also, I thikn there's a higher standard of thigns like employment benefits for road crew and such. Back in the 70's and 80's, you went on the road and you paid your roadies a per diem and that was it. But now, I believe it's become common that they're treated like employees of any other large company, i.e. you have to have a 401 K, worker's comp, etc lined up.

    I've also seen some venues charging a "restoration" fee, like if you're playing in a theater or hall that's been there for 50 years or more, the venue owners charge a fee that's theoretically going into a fund to keep up the restoration of those old buildings.

    Also, the high ticket prices exist in the bigger venues too. Now, back in 2003, I saw The Other Ones (surviving original members of the Grateful Dead) play Gund Arena for, I believe $43. I reasonably certain I paid at least 20-30 bucks per show for each of the other shows I saw at Gund Arena during the two or three years on either side of that one, which would include Roger Waters (1999), The Who (2000), Kiss (also 2000), Rush (2003, I believe), and Peter Gabriel (also 2003).

    But then, The Other Ones didn't have lasers, pyro, or a human sized hamster ball. They had a relative simple lighting rig, with a projection screen that showed a liquid light show. That was about it. I imagine transporting all that extra equipment for the purposes of presenting "a show", not just "a band performing music", along with hiring the techs and other crew people who are needed to deal with that stuff, and once again the insurance also adds to ticket prices.
    I don't dispute what you're saying at all. All I'm saying is it's ultimately ticket sales which pay for everything. Just like mayonnaise costs less per ounce buying a big jar from Costco, the more tickets get sold, the more costs get distributed between each ticket holder.

    Here's just one example: The upcoming Michael Bublé concert in the arena where the Suns play, ticket prices range from $65 to $139.50. The upcoming Kansas concert at a theater in Tucson (they're not coming to Phoenix), prices range from $178 to $242. If anything, Michael Bublé requires more trucks and drivers (a specialized skill) to transport more sound and lighting equipment. He also needs more roadies to setup and tear down that equipment. Not to mention, Bublé has a bigger band.
    Last edited by progmatist; 03-25-2019 at 05:07 PM.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    I don't dispute what you're saying at all. All I'm saying is it's ultimately ticket sales which pay for everything. Just like mayonnaise costs less per ounce buying a big jar from Costco, the more tickets get sold, the more costs get distributed between each ticket holder.

    Here's just one example: The upcoming Michael Bublé concert in the arena where the Suns play, ticket prices range from $65 to $139.50. The upcoming Kansas concert at a theater in Tucson (they're not coming to Phoenix), prices range from $178 to $242. If anything, Michael Bublé requires more trucks and drivers (a specialized skill) to transport more sound and lighting equipment. He also needs more roadies to setup and tear down that equipment. Not to mention, Bublé has a bigger band.
    Kansas just played a theater here in my hometown back in the fall on the current tour and tickets were no where near those prices. Are you sure those are not aftermarket tickets?

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    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    Kansas just played a theater here in my hometown back in the fall on the current tour and tickets were no where near those prices. Are you sure those are not aftermarket tickets?
    Those prices are directly from Ticketmaster.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  17. #17
    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Ticketmaster will fluctuate prices. Common practice. Aisle seats cost more. Buy Ticketmaster/Live Nation/AEG tickets and you will see a major shift from sale start to showtime. Buy a 5th row seat for $100 when tickets go on sale and you might be sitting next to a person who paid half that when they bought their ticket a week prior to show date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Those prices are directly from Ticketmaster.
    Just out of curiosity I went on the ticketmaster site for this show. Those prices are all for re-sale tickets. Ticketmaster got into the re-sale business a while back and it is often difficult to tell regular tickets from re-sale tickets. If you go to the venue web site you will find that the ticket prices range from $49 to $114. The show may be sold out which is one reason ticketmaster would only be showing re-sale tickets, but I did not go that far into the web site.

  19. #19
    I think King Crimson operates a lot like Foreigner does with everyone revolving around one stalwart BUT KC has name people. Foreigner? Not so much. But of course, no prog bands in a NYT article. Sad.

  20. #20
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    Just out of curiosity I went on the ticketmaster site for this show. Those prices are all for re-sale tickets. Ticketmaster got into the re-sale business a while back and it is often difficult to tell regular tickets from re-sale tickets. If you go to the venue web site you will find that the ticket prices range from $49 to $114. The show may be sold out which is one reason ticketmaster would only be showing re-sale tickets, but I did not go that far into the web site.
    This is the Big Scam. Scalping used to be illegal. Now, not only is it legal, it shows up on the ticket web site after the show is "sold out." (Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.) The re-sale (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) seats for Mott the Hoople are 4 times the cost of the face value. Can I afford it? Yes. Can I justify it? No. So, a pass. I looked at the page for Jimmy Buffett's show at Alpine this year. That's a big place. All of the tickets are re-sale, except Lawn Seating, so I figure I'll buy a lawn seat, and if I can't make the trip, I'm not out much. Not so fast, compadre. When I clicked on that option, it said it couldn't accept an order from the type of unit I was using to place the order. In other words, a computer! I just said fuck it. Maybe pay attention in January next year.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    This is the Big Scam. Scalping used to be illegal. Now, not only is it legal, it shows up on the ticket web site after the show is "sold out." (Nudge-nudge, wink-wink.) The re-sale (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) seats for Mott the Hoople are 4 times the cost of the face value. Can I afford it? Yes. Can I justify it? No. So, a pass. I looked at the page for Jimmy Buffett's show at Alpine this year. That's a big place. All of the tickets are re-sale, except Lawn Seating, so I figure I'll buy a lawn seat, and if I can't make the trip, I'm not out much. Not so fast, compadre. When I clicked on that option, it said it couldn't accept an order from the type of unit I was using to place the order. In other words, a computer! I just said fuck it. Maybe pay attention in January next year.
    They've had "ticket brokers" for at least 29 years that I know of. The first time I saw the Grateful Dead, we had to go to a ticket broker who charged ten bucks extra for the seat I chose. As I recall, the original face value was $30, and the guy had tickets for $35 and $40. This was summer 1990, for the Dead's Richfield Coliseum shows that September (which ended up being Vince Welnick's debut as the band's new keyboardist). I can remember thinking, "FORTY BUCKS! That's a lot of money for a concert ticket", but I went for it because of course, I wanted to see the Dead. Of course, nowadays, $40 won't even get you in the front door of an arena show.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    They've had "ticket brokers" for at least 29 years that I know of. The first time I saw the Grateful Dead, we had to go to a ticket broker who charged ten bucks extra for the seat I chose. As I recall, the original face value was $30, and the guy had tickets for $35 and $40. This was summer 1990, for the Dead's Richfield Coliseum shows that September (which ended up being Vince Welnick's debut as the band's new keyboardist). I can remember thinking, "FORTY BUCKS! That's a lot of money for a concert ticket", but I went for it because of course, I wanted to see the Dead. Of course, nowadays, $40 won't even get you in the front door of an arena show.
    Yes, ticket brokers have been around for years, but Ticketmaster just got into the re-sale business in the last few years. The problem is, that people who are not used to buying tickets can get easily sucked into paying more than what they should be paying.

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