Help me understand Led Zeppelin?

[Scrotum Scissor]

The Doors is a band I could never get behind. I suspect that will have little or no impact on their legacy. […] I suppose I do like a few of their tunes. But songs like Love Her Madly or Touch Me or Love Me Two Times are "B league" '60s rock IMO. I doubt there's anything anyone could say to me to convince me otherwise.

The band that absolutely sold and saved me back when I was 13 and surrounded on all fronts by the curse of Stock/Aitken/Waterman, Springsteen/Mellencamp-proxy and various suckery by the likes of Jon Bongiovi, Leppard, Bryan Adams and not-to-forget the Scorpions' "Still Loving You".

For that reason alone, I still consider myself a major Doors-fan; unlike anything-to-everything there was to imagine of "rock" for a 13-y.o., Morrison & co. scented genuine existential menace. They were my needed toxic pill of thought. But yes, their musical output was ca. 50% total rubbish - or at least mediocre. I wouldn't count "Love Her Madly" in there (he's drunk and singing from a polstered bathroom as a token to timbre, for Dog's sake), but hey - "Build Me a Woman" renders "Video Killed the Radio Star" a hope for the brightness of humanity.

[ronmac]

I'll that The Doors over LZ any day.

[proggy_jazzer]

You don't have to turn off your mind and rock out, but you may have to put it in the back seat for a bit. Think of it this way: your analytical mind is like Jimmy Page's guitar in "Rock and Roll" way back behind the beat, your viscera and lizard brain are up front with Bonham, and your ass and legs are with John Paul Jones. Let the feeling flow out first.

Have your analytical mind engage with the rhythm section first, figure out what they are doing, and then how everything else locks in around it, including the leads and vocals.

Great way to look at it. And since I always found that RP's singing often makes it difficult to understand the lyrics anyway, I tended to treat his voice as simply another texture in the overall sound. Just a thought.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Mmmhh!!!... to me, it's clearly an allusion to the "catholic" indulgence... Buying yourself a stairway to heaven is giving the church lotsa money to buy yourself heaven access before death after a life conduct without any consideration for others, hence the really rich person getting to open a store for her only.

Ummm, as a Catholic I simply don't see this. (Especially as the Church has long since condemned the selling of indulgences, a medieval practice run by local priests and almoners rather than an official practice of the Church.)

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

I will contextualize. It was in my undergraduate Ancient Greek Religion & Festivals course where the professor mentioned Robert Graves' The White Goddess. We were discussing matriarchy at the time. While he admitted that The White Goddess had little academic value, he did mention that Robert Plant was reading it while writing "Stairway to Heaven" as to assign it some cultural value. Since then, I've been thinking of the lyrics through that lens, though it may not be, in fact, all that warranted.

Still because of this, I read the lyrics as a kind of neo-pagan paean to a pseudo-Celtic goddess. I don't know that it parses all that well, but then the lyrics are more along the Jon Anderson vein of being more connotative, serving the feeling and emotions of the music, than being clearly denotative and delivering a clear message. So sure, there is an implication of an aristocratic entitlement, she can get what she wants when she wants it, she can buy the stairway to heaven with her wealth. But then, to her, everything is gold. She has unlimited wealth. She can show us this to, if we listen very hard, transcend dualities, etc.

The whole thing has a throughline of mystic sense, but then I could just be making it up. I thought I had a grasp on "Norwegian Wood" after all, but after this thread not so much.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I've read The White Goddess (and found it incredibly boringly written, but...). It's mostly about trees, as I recall (it was a loooong time ago), and the idea of the sacrificed king.

What I hear in that lyric is not that everything is gold; rather, everything "still turns to" gold, the Midas bit. It's all about wealth and privilege. I do get that it's a spiritually-oriented song, but its spirituality is build up by contrasts, and the "lady" gets the shitty end of the stick.

Still, a lyric (or any writing) has the meaning a reader finds and I'm not saying you're wrong, only that I don't hear it that way.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

^^ I guess if you're really parsing the lyrics, then you probably don't like Deep Purple.... or, Whitesnake!

Quite correct, especially Whitesnake whom I had the misfortune to see opening for Jethro Tull. An incredibly boring act of cliche protometal.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

You don't have to turn off your mind and rock out, but you may have to put it in the back seat for a bit. Think of it this way: your analytical mind is like Jimmy Page's guitar in "Rock and Roll" way back behind the beat, your viscera and lizard brain are up front with Bonham, and your ass and legs are with John Paul Jones. Let the feeling flow out first.

Have your analytical mind engage with the rhythm section first, figure out what they are doing, and then how everything else locks in around it, including the leads and vocals.

I'll try that. I've got a copy of How the West... to try it on.

[Steve F.]

For that reason alone, I still consider myself a major Doors-fan; unlike anything-to-everything there was to imagine of "rock" for a 13-y.o., Morrison & co. scented genuine existential menace. They were my needed toxic pill of thought. But yes, their musical output was ca. 50% total rubbish - or at least mediocre. .

As long as you are willing to admit that a good part of their output is mediocre at best, I am quite happy to admit that a good part of it is really great.

So, we got us a deal!

[Scrotum Scissor]

^ Oh, very much so.

Yet my fandom endured! Despite or because of!!

And let that be a lesson to those who can't bear to hear how their favourite act may have been fantastic but was partly also full of shit!!!

[ronmac]

Ummm, as a Catholic I simply don't see this. (Especially as the Church has long since condemned the selling of indulgences, a medieval practice run by local priests and almoners rather than an official practice of the Church.)

As a non-Catholic, I don't see it either.

[Zappathustra]

But the Doors' good part is not just great. It is monumental.

[Scrotum Scissor]

But the Doors' good part is not just great. It is monumental.

Which was the basic point exactly. Phil Manzanera once said about The Doors' mythical appearance at the (London) Roundhouse in '68 - where he was obviously in attendance - that "[…] The one majestic bit made you completely forget about the forgettable rest of it" - or something akin to that. I believe it says alot.

[TheLoony]

^^ I guess if you're really parsing the lyrics, then you probably don't like Deep Purple.... or, Whitesnake!

Great one. I haven't read past this part but this might get interesting. Whitesnake is a great example as I'm not sure if there is a Whitesnake song that isn't about sex, and I do have a few of their albums so not unfamiliar with them. Anyway, thanks for the early morning chuckle.

[TheLoony]

Quite correct, especially Whitesnake whom I had the misfortune to see opening for Jethro Tull. An incredibly boring act of cliche protometal.

Do you remember what year this was? Just curious, as BITD I was a huge Whitesnake fan, and yes, that one's on me. I can barely listen to them now and I can listen to some incredibly cheesy music from those days. Tull and WS, that's kinda funny, eh? That's like trying to eat cheddar cheese and motor oil together.

[Mister Triscuits]

Do you remember what year this was? Just curious, as BITD I was a huge Whitesnake fan, and yes, that one's on me. I can barely listen to them now and I can listen to some incredibly cheesy music from those days. Tull and WS, that's kinda funny, eh?

The tour with Whitesnake opening for Tull was 1980 (the "A" tour). I was unfamiliar with WS, but was kind of interested in hearing Jon Lord. Unfortunately he was inaudible under the wall of guitar noise. Awful, awful set.

[TheLoony]

The tour with Whitesnake opening for Tull was 1980 (the "A" tour). I was unfamiliar with WS, but was kind of interested in hearing Jon Lord. Unfortunately he was inaudible under the wall of guitar noise. Awful, awful set.

I was thinking it might have been a bit later when WS were almost legitimate. Damn, that's hella funny to me. I probably would have loved both bands and that's, well, interesting? My tastes have shifted just a little bit. I am a bit more discerning, if just a bit.

Killer poster from Whitesnake in The Goldberg's sitcom, BTW.

I never got to see them, I think, with Jon Lord but I can't remember. I did see them open for Quiet Riot on the Slide It In but damned if I can remember if Lord Hammond was there. I think it was right when Deep Purple were refoming and he had left but man, that was a long time ago and even then, I didn't have the musical knowledge to know, really, who Jon Lord was. He was so lost in WS, really, there was no place for him there and you can't hear him on any recordings, mostly, that I have.

Sorta like putting Derek Sherinian in BCC. Why? Well, for the hell of it, I guess.

[Halmyre]

Whitesnake were more of a blues-rock band in 1980. They might have been lumped under the heavy metal umbrella but you'd be hard-pushed to label them as such.

[ronmac]

I'm not sure if there is a Whitesnake song that isn't about sex,

Well, considering the name of the band ...

[mogrooves]

...the Doors' good part is not just great. It is monumental.

First two albums kill; after that, things get patchy.

[Sputnik]

First two albums kill; after that, things get patchy.

Love the first two, but LA Woman is the masterpiece, imo.

Agree The Doors could be spotty, but the great stuff is truly great. Still a favorite of mine.

Bill

[ronmac]

First two albums kill; after that, things get patchy.

That debut is one of the best ever. And, if there was ever a more-fitting opening track for a band like that, I have not heard one.

[notallwhowander]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I've read The White Goddess (and found it incredibly boringly written, but...). It's mostly about trees, as I recall (it was a loooong time ago), and the idea of the sacrificed king.

What I hear in that lyric is not that everything is gold; rather, everything "still turns to" gold, the Midas bit. It's all about wealth and privilege. I do get that it's a spiritually-oriented song, but its spirituality is build up by contrasts, and the "lady" gets the shitty end of the stick.

Still, a lyric (or any writing) has the meaning a reader finds and I'm not saying you're wrong, only that I don't hear it that way.

Does the lady get the shitty end of the stick? She's buying the stairway to heaven. She seems to be coming out ahead in the whole deal.

If everything still turns to gold, then the whole world is her wealth. Coupled with the idea that she can buy her way to heaven, if meant without sarcasm, it also means that being in the state where the whole world is effectively your wealth, where everything is gold, is a way to heaven. The means is the path. That it is put in this weird verb tense, "everything still turns to gold" means that this possibility exists and can be had. The lady can reveal the way.

And as we wind on down the road, our shadows taller then our souls
(as we head towards the certainty of our deaths)
There walks a lady we all know, who shines white light and wants to show
(the white goddess is among us, ready to reveal a mystery)
How everything still turns to gold
(the process, the way to blessed abundance, and everything gold connotates)
And if you listen very hard, The tune will come to you at last
(so pay attention, and put some effort in)
When all are one and one is all, To be a rock and not to roll
(the mystery, the transcending of duality, satori)
And she's buying the stairway to heaven
(plaintively sung - implication: singer and audience still aren't there)

[Halmyre]

That debut is one of the best ever. And, if there was ever a more-fitting opening track for a band like that, I have not heard one.

I bought the first album because I wanted to hear 'Light My Fire" - one of two or three Doors songs I knew - but when I dropped the stylus on "Break On Through" it was a Wow! moment (and this was some 15 or so years after its release). After that I more or less bought the albums in chronological order, bottoming out on The Soft Parade before the climb back to LA Woman.

[Scrotum Scissor]

That debut is one of the best ever. And, if there was ever a more-fitting opening track for a band like that, I have not heard one.

To put it like this; garage-rock combos like The Standells, Count Five and The Seeds (plus many, many others from that era) garnered more-or-less legendary status on the strength of one single tune each, so just imagine how The Doors would have faired if "Break On Through" had been their sole achievement - they'd still be near-mythical. Yet they would proceed to deliver apocalyptic visions in spades.

Even some of their blatant pop efforts were indeed rather memorable. Take the much maligned Soft Parade album; while "Touch Me" and "Tell All the People" may be quasi-crooner misses, there's also "Wishful Sinful" and the furious madness of the title track.

L.A. Woman is great, but even that one features the odd dud; still, "Been Down So Long" is followed by its exact opposite in the grand success of "Cars Hiss By My Window" - as convincing a take on a drunken blues original as you'll ever hope to expect from a mere rock'n'roll band.

Their debut is pretty much brilliant with the exception of "Backdoor Man". They simply weren't dirty enough yet to pull that off. For a magnificent example of an acid-rock group who were, check Quicksilver Messenger Service's rendition on the Lost Gold & Silver/Maiden of the Cancer Moon set. That's the stingiest guitar pick I ever heard and it still makes the hair on my neck stand up in a straight craze.

[Trane]

Ummm, as a Catholic I simply don't see this. (Especially as the Church has long since condemned the selling of indulgences, a medieval practice run by local priests and almoners rather than an official practice of the Church.)

We're on slippery grounds (PE policy) here, sooo I won't delve into it much longer

Mmmhhh!!!... the clergy was always quite ambiguous (i'll remain very PC so far, but I think a lot worse - or better in the atheist PoV)
They condemn indulgences officially, but encouraged it in private... and even provoking it in some cases... The numbers of little old ladies being angry at the rest of their family and leaving their houses and fortunes to .... the church (buying the stairway to heaven, of sorts).
Now, how did these old bigot women got angry with the rest of their family, you ask?? Well the way I see and hear (or more like "saw and heard" it) was that the priest or pastor was the one fueling the fire... The Flemish clergy made heritage spoliation an industry, still in the 60's ... and I really doubt this didn't happen elsewhere, and in other christian confessions.... or islamic circles, FTM.

As a non-Catholic, I don't see it either.

That's because you don't suspect your local pastor or priest or not-so local bishop to be a con man.... just like you didn't suspect them that he preyed on young boys either.... Religions are a form of organized crime.

BTW, I was brought up a cath...

But the Doors' good part is not just great. It is monumental.

Absolutely ... And though I could live the rest of my life without ever hearing that band again, if push comes tp shove, I'll take Doors over Zep... BTW, if I never hear Zep again, it'll be fine with me as well.

First two albums kill; after that, things get patchy.

Yup, love those first two, but their next three, I've done a CD-r compilation , and I still left some space at the end of the disc.
However, LA Woman is better than the debut and SD put together.