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Thread: Rush’s Live Release Thinking

  1. #1
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Rush’s Live Release Thinking

    Sitting here watching the Molson Amphitheater footage from Rush’s R40 bonus Blu-Ray (from the Test for Echo your), and trying to figure out why it took Rush (and a lot of other bands really) so long to realize they could release a live show (audio and/or video) from each tour and it would sell. I know for a long time Rush had the “policy” of releasing a live album after every three studio albums. But this Test for Echo show is excellent, so why didn’t they start releasing videos of full shows from each tour sooner? Would love to have full videos of shows from several of the 80s/90s tours. Maybe that market just hadn’t been cultivated yet?

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    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    It was actually a live album after every four studio albums. I'm not sure why - I don't think live albums were as common back then for any band... certainly not one (or more!) after every studio release like it often is now. It can be a bit of overkill nowadays. I know some people who don't buy any live albums or videos, they just don't care for them. I'd love one from the Presto tour though (my first) - I thought that was a great show.

    I was at that show you're watching. My buddy and I were pretty jazzed that they were playing 2112 in its entirety for the first time ever on that tour. They played one more date, in Ottawa, and then it was only a short time later that Neil's tragedies began. For about five years I thought I had seen the second-to-last Rush show ever. Thankfully that wasn't the case, of course.
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  3. #3
    [QUOTE=JKL2000;874731]
    and trying to figure out why it took Rush (and a lot of other bands really) so long to realize they could release a live show (audio and/or video) from each tour and it would sell
    .

    Basically, it was because it had never been done, and conventional "business" logic suggested, at the time, it would have been counterproductive. One thing is, the thought was that, unless you were talking about The Beatles, let's say, the audience wasn't going to "keep buying the same songs again and again". Also, I think a lot of people were concerned about being seen as exploiting whatever fanbase they had by, once again, putting out the same songs again and again. The latter, I think, is the reason why Pink Floyd, for instance, only released one live album (and just a single LP at that), because they didn't want to keep releasing the same material (in fact, if you read interviews from the early 70's, they seem to be a bit embarrassed by the fact that they were still doing things like A Saucerful Of Secrets and Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun).

    Whether or not Rush, or anyone else could have released a fresh live album off each tour, as they were happening, I'm not sure. I think it's only as archival releases that the concept of releasing a glut of live material could be put out. Posthumous things aside, I think the Grateful Dead were about the first band to demonstrate that there was, at least, a seemingly bottomless pit of a market for releasing live recordings 20-30 years after the original shows.

    Of course, with the Dead (and Crimson, and the Allman Brothers Band, etc) you at least have sometimes extreme variation from one show to the next, so there's different improvisations, different song choices, etc.

    With a band like Rush, well, it's a well known fact that they basically didn't improvise. At all, really. So there's a logic to saying that there was no point in releasing multiple live versions of the same songs, when every version of a given song is going to be nearly identical.

    I know for a long time Rush had the “policy” of releasing a live album after every three studio albums.
    Well, first of all, they put one out after every four albums. And secondly, it wasn't exactly "policy" to do them at regular intervals. I think most bands used live albums as a means of maintaining their presence in the market place with a new record, while at the time, given themselves some breathing room to work out what the next studio album was going to be.

    In the case of Rush, they actually thought they would "need" a live album while working on Permanent Waves, for that reason. So they booked a remote mobile to capture some of the shows on the UK leg of that tour. But as it happened, they started coming up with a lot of song ideas during soundchecks and such, which led to them realizing that they didn't really need a breather, as such. Those song ideas end up forming the basis for what we now know as Moving Pictures. But that's why Exit...Stage Left has material from two different tours, because after Moving Pictures they decided, "Right, this time, we really do need a breather", so they recorded more shows, and used what they thought was was the best material from the two tours (actually, I know even in the mid 80's, Alex, for one was saying, he wished Vital Signs and The Camera Eye had been on Exit..., so maybe they didn't think it was the best choice of material).

    But this Test for Echo show is excellent, so why didn’t they start releasing videos of full shows from each tour sooner? Would love to have full videos of shows from several of the 80s/90s tours. Maybe that market just hadn’t been cultivated yet?
    Having not seen the footage you're talking about, I don't know what the nature of it is. Is it actual pro-shot footage, or is it a video screen footage, or is it someone in the audience with a camcorder?

    Pro-shot footage that hasn't already been released is unlikely to exist, as professional shoots are extremely expensive. You can just hire a film crew and do a full blown five or six camera shoot, "For the hell of it" or "We'll figure out what to do with it later". Anything that's shot like that was done because whichever band or performer was doing something for TV, or a concert movie, or a home video release.

    Video screen feeds might exist from the tours you're talking about, especially the 90's era shows, but I have no idea what's floating around. I know there's video screen feeds for a lot of bands dating back to the mid 70's (I've got a couple Kiss and Blue Oyster Cult shows from 76), so there could be almost anything from any tour floating around for Rush. Who knows?

    What I'd like to see is a release that has the various back drop films they used on each tour, accompanied by audio of the music. I'm less interesting in seeing the band, I just want to see the films from the various tours. I only ever got to see Rush once, and I remember there was some pretty cool stuff they used on various songs, which only see glimpses of on the official releases.
    I don't think live albums were as common back then for any band
    During what era? The 80's and 90's? I think the new home video market might have made a lot of people say, "Why put out a live album when we can give the full visual package?", as there were a whole glut of concert videos during the 80's. In fact, Rush were one of the bands that kinda went bonkers, as it were, with that, putting out three concert videos circa 1981-1989. And the bands who weren't putting out concert videos were at least filming concerts for outlets like MTV. So that might have been why there were fewer live albums during that time frame.

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    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    I cannot begin to say how quick I would be to buy a Blu ray collection of every Rush tour ever. Of course, this is all hindsight. I would love to see Rutsy playing a complete show. And Neil doing all the songs as their new drummer and playing Beneath Between and Behind as a brand new member. Film was expensive and rare back then and they were broke. But how great would it be to watch Rush becoming Rush through the lens of their concerts? I wonder if there are any more cuts of them in the early years that we will never get to see.

  5. #5
    Back in the '80s, Rush explained that the live albums after every four studio albums were a way to sum up that particular period as a sort of "best of" approach--hence why those first three live albums have very little overlap.

    Test for Echo was actually the last tour I saw them on, and I felt like there was an energy missing with the addition of all the triggered backing vocals and synths. I enjoy the bonus 1977 disc on that live album more than the '94/97 stuff on the main album.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by profusion View Post
    Back in the '80s, Rush explained that the live albums after every four studio albums were a way to sum up that particular period as a sort of "best of" approach--hence why those first three live albums have very little overlap.
    That was the "official" reason. The real reason is they needed to a break from having the next studio album ready "right now" once in awhile. As I said in my earlier post, they were planning a live album right after Permanent Waves, but decided they wanted to go ahead and make the next studio album first, once they started generating song ideas during the soundchecks and so forth.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Yodelgoat View Post
    I wonder if there are any more cuts of them in the early years that we will never get to see.
    To tell you the truth, I'd be highly doubtful there's any outtakes in existence from the Exit...Stage Left video shoot, never mind "the early years". It's a slight miracle that that footage that we have with Rutsey on drums and that documentary footage of the teenage Alex arguing with his parents about his interest in pursuing music as a career even still exists. In a lot of circumstances, stuff like that was thrown out or taped over.

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    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    The Holy Grail live footage/recordings for me is the Signals tour. It's one of my all time fave Rush albums but all that's out there is some really grainy audience footage and bad bootlegs. I get that the band felt they had just recently delivered a monster live package, plus they weren't thrilled with how Signals came out. But for us fans of that era it's a missed opportunity. Plus it was the last time Geddy played the Ricky as his main axe. And all those gorgeous analog synths.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    It's a slight miracle that that footage that we have with Rutsey on drums and that documentary footage of the teenage Alex arguing with his parents about his interest in pursuing music as a career even still exists.
    Is that footage on YouTube?

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    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Is that footage on YouTube?
    You mean this?

    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

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    If I recall correctly, I read an interview with Ged (either post Exit, or post Show of Hands) where he revealed that the band actually found the live album process a bit of a chore.

    I don't think they enjoyed deciding on which recordings to go with, being perfectionists, and they simply wanted to get the product done and over to the label, so they could move on to creating new music.

    That would probably explain why their live albums have always had poor sound mixes - and I say that as a fan who has everything, including the later releases in multiple cd/dvd/blu formats.

    I was disappointed that Exit didn't reflect the set I saw, missing out so much material, and when you compare the sound mix to the Exit Stage Right bootleg, you can hear the difference.

    Show Of Hands was ok soundwise, but far too short and not really representative of a complete show.

    Different Stages felt more like a full show, but the sound mix was too muddy for me.

    Rio - the 5.1 mix on the dvd is terrible. The crowd drown out so much of the music, and while I get that the band wanted to capture that atmosphere, the music sound mix suffered. I know they had tech issues on the night, and the gig was a real fly by the seat of the pants affair, but they could have fixed those post production and balanced the band/audience more evenly.

    R30 - they made an arse of that one by dropping several tracks from the initial release (so as not to offend fans who'd bought the same tracks on Rio), but at least they were restored for the bluray version.

    Snakes and Arrows - I actually like this one a lot. Perhaps it's the setlist, or the band on particularly good form, but both the blu and the cd mixes sound great.

    Time Machine - oh dear, Ged's voice is noticably faltering by now, and the overall sound is poor, either on the stereo cd or on 5.1 bluray. Photography isn't that great either, with lots of blurry shots trying to capture the audience perspective of the show.

    Clockwork Angels - a better sound, perhaps because of the synth songs during the first set, and the need to balance in the string section on the second set, and the Hi Def cameras offer a nice level of clarity and detail, with the focus this time on the players and instruments.

    R40 - bluray sounds pretty good in 5.1, and a terrific set that manages to paper over Ged's vocals by giving him lengthy breathers, but it sounds a bit rough on the stereo cd.

    Hammersmith 78 - possibly the best sounding live album? And that's probably because they left it to Terry Brown to remix the tapes - I get the impression it was a labour of love for him to revisit that show 40 years later and do it justice.

    It's a shame the band don't seem to be as involved with the reissues as say, Ian Anderson or Dave Gilmour, in trying to source good quality recordings to reward those fans who've bought everything else. The Pink Pop set on last year's Hemispheres reissue was ok, but why fly in 2112 from a different show (and a better sounding and full show) just to pad things out? The producers arranged for that 2112 suite to be mixed professionally and it sounds great - what a missed opportunity not to spend a little more money and master the complete Desert Passage set, and give the fans the whole Hemispheres piece live.

    I'm hoping next years Permanent Waves set might do the honourable thing and include a full set from the Glasgow tapes used for Exit, but I have a suspicion that they'll simply go with the truncated St Louis broadcast instead....

  12. #12
    A few thoughts...

    I think with live albums by Rush they just sort of got in a pattern and instead of releasing a "best of"/"greatest hits" every so often, it happened that every 4 albums they ended up sort of marking the "era" with a live album. It was a nice pattern and went on for 4, 4 album units. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of live albums even though Exit...Stage Left was my first Rush album. Also, fun fact: the band almost put out Exit...Stage Left before Moving Pictures.

    So really the only live albums or videos not out there are for Counterparts, Roll The Bones, Presto, Power Windows, Signals....

    With Grace Under Pressure you had the first time there was a live video with no corresponding live album.

    What Rush could have done was not have many or any "repeats" if they just edited the albums a bit like with A Show Of Hands. ASOH was devoid of many repeats and really focused on the previous 4 albums.

    I agree with the above that prior to say the R30 tour, it was VERY expensive to do film or HD shooting (didn't really exist per se) hence, we got the standard def Rush In Rio after the Vapor Trails tour.

    I've seen a bootleg of Counterparts tour on YouTube I think and it looks pretty good.

    BTW I've totally forgot to look at the bonus materials on the R40! Glad you reminded me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    The Holy Grail live footage/recordings for me is the Signals tour. It's one of my all time fave Rush albums but all that's out there is some really grainy audience footage and bad bootlegs. I get that the band felt they had just recently delivered a monster live package, plus they weren't thrilled with how Signals came out. But for us fans of that era it's a missed opportunity. Plus it was the last time Geddy played the Ricky as his main axe. And all those gorgeous analog synths.
    Having my first Rush concert as NYC's Radio City Music Hall, THAT would have been a great video and would have fallen in between the time line of the dark, moody Moving Pictures (Exit...Stage Left) tour FILM and the Live In Montreal (Grace Under Pressure tour) video...which looked like a TV special.

    But, yeah, I too have bought all these videos and yes you have "Tom Sawyer" and "The Spirit of Radio" on EVERY video sounding pretty identical every time (that's Rush!) but I think the videos for every tour was a cool memento-the best kind.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Valen View Post
    .It's a shame the band don't seem to be as involved with the reissues as say, Ian Anderson or Dave Gilmour, in trying to source good quality recordings to reward those fans who've bought everything else. The Pink Pop set on last year's Hemispheres reissue was ok, but why fly in 2112 from a different show (and a better sounding and full show) just to pad things out? The producers arranged for that 2112 suite to be mixed professionally and it sounds great - what a missed opportunity not to spend a little more money and master the complete Desert Passage set, and give the fans the whole Hemispheres piece live.

    I'm hoping next years Permanent Waves set might do the honourable thing and include a full set from the Glasgow tapes used for Exit, but I have a suspicion that they'll simply go with the truncated St Louis broadcast instead....
    Lots of "dropped balls" when it comes to re-issues/boxed sets. I'm not a big re-issue guy unless I don't happen to have the originals anyway (all the Tull Wilson remixes) or if there's really something juicy which is usually not the case with Rush as I don't really think you can make their albums sound all that much better and there's no deep cuts, just more live stuff, etc.

  14. #14
    With Grace Under Pressure you had the first time there was a live video with no corresponding live album.
    That was a common theme in the 80's, I think. Genesis did The Mama Tour and Invisible Touch concert videos, Yes had 9012Live*, Queen had the We Will Rock You and Live At Wembley videos (there was a Live At Wembley album but it didn't come out until after Freddie passed away), Iron Maiden had the Maiden In England deal from the Seventh Tour Of A Seventh Tour, and so on.

    * Yeah, there was a record out called 9012Live: The Solos, but that was billed as an EP (though I think it was full LP length) focused on the solo pieces each of the band members did on that tour, with I think just two songs proper (Hold On and...oh, I can't remember what the other song was, Changes, maybe?). So it doesn't really represent the 90125 tour the same the 9012Live concert video did.

    I've seen a bootleg of Counterparts tour on YouTube I think and it looks pretty good.
    That's the tour where they had the Also Sprach Zarathustra fanfare as the play on music, accompanied by the giant nut and bolt screwing into each other in outer space, with the band starting with Animate, right? I've got a video with that as the beginning which was pretty good.

    BTW I've totally forgot to look at the bonus materials on the R40! Glad you reminded me!


    Having my first Rush concert as NYC's Radio City Music Hall, THAT would have been a great video and would have fallen in between the time line of the dark, moody Moving Pictures (Exit...Stage Left) tour FILM and the Live In Montreal (Grace Under Pressure tour) video...which looked like a TV special.
    I think the big difference there might be the lighting. the Grace Under Pressure video looks like they did a better job of lighting for a video production, and it was shot on videotape, whereas Exit...Stage Left looks like it might have been shot on film, with darker lighting, maybe closer to what you'd have onstage if you weren't doing a video shoot.
    But, yeah, I too have bought all these videos and yes you have "Tom Sawyer" and "The Spirit of Radio" on EVERY video sounding pretty identical every time (that's Rush!) but I think the videos for every tour was a cool memento-the best kind.
    Remember that video they did for Closer To The Heart they did to promote Different Stages? They took the video they shot for the original studio version, and the versions from Exit...Stage Left, Grace Under Pressure, and A Show Of Hands, plus new footage, and synced them all up to one single live version for the audio. And virtually every damn shot syncs up perfectly to the audio. I mean, I appreciate the fact that was something they took pride in, playing the songs exactly the same every night, and on a lot of those songs, that is impressive that they could do that, but as a listener, for me, it gets boring after awhile.

    Like I said, I'd like to have a video of all the films they used in concert. That would interest me more than having full concerts. And hopefully if they did do it, they'd do a better job than Pink Floyd did on that deluxe version of WIsh You Were Here, where the Welcome To The Machine animation is out of sync with the audio (at least it is every time I see it on Youtube, and I don't mean slightly out of sync as often happens on Youtube, I mean way out of sync, because they started the song earlier in relation to the film than they did during the actual live performances).
    Last edited by GuitarGeek; 01-23-2019 at 04:01 PM.

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    NEARfest Officer Emeritus Nearfest2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    But this Test for Echo show is excellent, so why didn’t they start releasing videos of full shows from each tour sooner? Would love to have full videos of shows from several of the 80s/90s tours. Maybe that market just hadn’t been cultivated yet?
    It also had a lot to do with cost. Audio and video recording became easier, cheaper and much higher in quality as time went by.

    There are also be a lot of stuff in the vault that we have no idea about - and we may never see because the band isn't happy with it or whatever.
    Chad

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    The Hammersmith '78 was outstanding. Some say Alex rushes things on a few songs but I love the energy. And the mix is awesome.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Plus it was the last time Geddy played the Ricky as his main axe. And all those gorgeous analog synths.
    Yup!

    Quote Originally Posted by 3RDegree_Robert View Post
    Having my first Rush concert as NYC's Radio City Music Hall, THAT would have been a great video and would have fallen in between the time line of the dark, moody Moving Pictures (Exit...Stage Left) tour FILM and the Live In Montreal (Grace Under Pressure tour) video...which looked like a TV special.
    Yeah, VERY 80s "shot on video" look to the GUP release.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Are you sure about that? Wikipedia says Moving Pictures came out in February of 81, Exit...Stage Left came out in October.
    They planned to do a live album after PeW, but were on a roll, so decided to make another studio album. And we got MP.

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I think the big difference there might be the lighting. the Grace Under Pressure video looks like they did a better job of lighting for a video production, and it was shot on videotape, whereas Exit...Stage Left looks like it might have been shot on film, with darker lighting, maybe closer to what you'd have onstage if you weren't doing a video shoot.
    It took a while for bands, directors, whatever to figure out that concert lighting had to be approached differently when shooting film/video. ESL really suffers for it. And that fucking wedge monitor in front of Geddy the whole time...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by gearHed289 View Post

    They planned to do a live album after PeW, but were on a roll, so decided to make another studio album. And we got MP.
    Yes, I know, in fact, I said that in two earlier posts in this thread. And I just re-read Robert's comment, I originally missed the word "almost", which obviously modifies the intent of his sentence. If they hadn't come up with stuff during the Permanent Waves tour, then the second live album would have followed directly on from that tour.
    It took a while for bands, directors, whatever to figure out that concert lighting had to be approached differently when shooting film/video.
    Depends on which band and directors you're talking about. There's a lot of the stuff from the 70's that actually looks great, though most of it appears to be things that were shot on video, such as Thin Lizzy Live And Dangerous and the ELP's Pictures At An Exhibition film. The footage shot of Deep Purple and ELP at the California Jam also looks great too.

    I also think the Grateful Dead Movie also looks great, I don't give a frell what Owsley thought. Also, The Last Waltz, Genesis In Concert, and maybe even Yessongs (it's been so long since I've seen Yessongs, I don't remember how the footage looks). OH yeah, and the Baba O'Riley/Won't Get Fooled Again footage in The Kids Are Alright looks phenomenal. All of those were shot on film.

    ESL really suffers for it. And that fucking wedge monitor in front of Geddy the whole time...
    Yeah, Exit...Stage Left really does appear to not have been lit or shot very well. And sticking a camera down the front of the stage seems to have been a bad decision. They didn't have to stick a camera down there, but that's whta that particular director decided to do, presumably not realizing the monitor would be in the way.

    It really feels like not much planning was done with that film. If I was shooting a concert video of Rush, I'd certainly make sure I'd have a camera placed where one could get a better view of Geddy's synths, and also shown at least a foot shots of Geddy and/or Alex's feet operating the bass pedals. If Genesis could do it on Three Sides Live and The Mama Tour, I'm sure it could have been done on E...SL as well.


    For me, though, a bigger issue is the absence of Spirit Of Radio, La Villa Strangiato, The Camera Eye, Vital Signs, and I think they snipped off a bit of the medley (which I believe, on that tour, actually started off with a bit of Hemispheres, before seguing into By-Tor...). And would have been nice if we could have gotten a better view of Geddy's synths.

  19. #19
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    Anyone mention the Presto tour footage that's a bonus on the Time Stand Still documentary? I like it... It's raw and like the show, not all polished up after the fact.

  20. #20
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    Does Alex ever really sing live or is it total bullshit?
    If it isn't Krautrock, it's krap.

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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Does Alex ever really sing live or is it total bullshit?
    I've only seen him miming to a chorus of pre-recorded Geddy vocals.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Does Alex ever really sing live or is it total bullshit?
    I think I've seen him singing backup vocals during the 70's. I think he used to sing back up vocals on In The Mood, but that was it. And didn't use the sing or say or whatever the song title in Subdivisions, as he appears to do in the video? I seem to recall that the version that's on A Show Of Hands, most definitely isn't a sample.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Sitting here watching the Molson Amphitheater footage from Rush’s R40 bonus Blu-Ray (from the Test for Echo your), and trying to figure out why it took Rush (and a lot of other bands really) so long to realize they could release a live show (audio and/or video) from each tour and it would sell. I know for a long time Rush had the “policy” of releasing a live album after every three studio albums. But this Test for Echo show is excellent, so why didn’t they start releasing videos of full shows from each tour sooner? Would love to have full videos of shows from several of the 80s/90s tours. Maybe that market just hadn’t been cultivated yet?
    I would imagine it was when the money made from the album and touring cycle flip flopped in the late 90's.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Does Alex ever really sing live or is it total bullshit?
    He does, but it depends on if they have his mike higher in the mix so it can be heard.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Sitting here watching the Molson Amphitheater footage from Rush’s R40 bonus Blu-Ray (from the Test for Echo your), and trying to figure out why it took Rush (and a lot of other bands really) so long to realize they could release a live show (audio and/or video) from each tour and it would sell. I know for a long time Rush had the “policy” of releasing a live album after every three studio albums. But this Test for Echo show is excellent, so why didn’t they start releasing videos of full shows from each tour sooner? Would love to have full videos of shows from several of the 80s/90s tours. Maybe that market just hadn’t been cultivated yet?

    That Test For Echo show was supposed to accompany the Different Stages CD release but the apparently there were "synching" issues between the audio and video which was said to be "cost prohibitive" to fix at the time. It was supposed to be a complete show. For whatever reason, some of it (maybe the part that they had already worked on?) was released as a bonus on the R40 package.

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