Buffy Season 5 Episode 16 "The Body"

[JJ88]

With regard to the episode (The Body) in the thread title, it's a terrific bit of TV. Great acting/writing. But not something I could watch too often.

Nor is Seeing Red in the following series...that was tough, even though I knew (I'd seen a spoiler some time before...I'm almost glad I did!) what was coming.

[Jerjo]

I like the episode with The Gentlemen. That was the spookiest thing they ever did.

Also, I can watch that scene with the rocket launcher in the mall over and over and over again.

[JJ88]

I like the episode with The Gentlemen. That was the spookiest thing they ever did.

Hush. The scene where you see why The Gentlemen did that voicebox spell is pretty scary. I also loved the funny slideshow scene. Despite having the weakest 'big bad' villain, that fourth series had some of the best individual episodes of all.

[JJ88]

Angel is well worth watching too!

I've seen the whole first series. It was good, but the first series of Angel didn't seem as thematically rich as its parent show was, from the start. I did enjoy the episodes with Buffy and Faith a lot. The episode Hero with main character Doyle getting killed off was another strong one.

There's a long way to go...another four series!

[TheLoony]

The ending of Angel was prompted by it's firing but they had enough time to figure out how to send them off in splendid fashion, IMO. Total Illuminati conspiracy theorists wet dream, just in a world of demons and such. Spike and Angel arguing about spacemen vs. a caveman is one of my favorite scenes ever, and the whole Strada(street) episode chasing after Buffy is way too much fun. Demon mafia, it's just too good.

[JJ88]

I suspect I won't get to the end of Angel until some time into next year!

My issue with the last series of Buffy is that the core of the last couple of episodes were great, but there was so much unnecessary filler in this series. Too much arguing, too many bolted-on cast members and original cast members acting out of character.

[rickawakeman]

I'm still finishing S6! Loved the musical episode.

[JJ88]

^Once More, With Feeling was great. When I heard there was a musical episode, 'WTF' came to mind, but it worked. You don't have to be a 'all singing/dancing' musical theatre fan to like it...a fair amount of the songs are solo numbers.

I'm now getting to the end of the second series of Angel. It's better than the first series and occasionally great, but still not up to the level of BTVS. Good enough for me to keep watching though.

[TheLoony]

Trust me on this..........

Who would win in a fight....

You guys haven't gotten there yet

So looking forward to your responses.

[Dana5140]

Major Buffy fan here, even if I now think Joss Whedon is a world-class asshole and hypocrite. As a long-time member of the whedonesque world I wrote extensively on Buffy for many years, See this: https://deird1.livejournal.com/182556.html

SPOILERS FOR ANGEL (AND BUFFY) BELOW

I began watching Angel and could not make it past its third season. I just could not. The entire structure is radically different. Buffy begins as "high-school is hell" and tracks the development of a bunch of teenagers finding themselves. Angel is about living in the adult world and working in corporate culture. It just did not resonate at all for me. Even though I am male, I could identify with Willow in the Buffy series, but in Angel there was no one with whom to identify- and by then the writers were relying on tricks long overused in Buffy- deaths of beloved characters (Tara in Buffy, Fred in Angel), characters going evil (Willow, Wesley), characters being redeemed (Spike, Faith and Cordelia). I have all 5 seasons of Angel, but will never watch S4 with its stupidity, and do not much care about S5 when they get to own the company.

[JJ88]

I thought the 'Dark Willow' episodes which closed Series 6 were terrific, but Tara's murder doesn't sit well with me- for one thing, she was so nice! Arguably the nicest person in the show. And when it happened was horrible as well.

Angel suffers from comparison with its parent show. Weirdly the episodes Whedon wrote have been some of the weakest.

[NogbadTheBad]

Just started rewatching the series, loved it back in the day, The Body and Hush were two stand out episodes.

[JJ88]

^Those are brilliant, so is Once More, With Feeling which I've gathered are the three most popular episodes. I was hooked early in the run but for me it was, oh this is an amazing show around halfway into Series 2 (Surprise/Innocence, Passion, I Only Have Eyes For You etc.). New Moon Rising and Who Are You were other favourites.

[Dana5140]

I thought the 'Dark Willow' episodes which closed Series 6 were terrific, but Tara's murder doesn't sit well with me- for one thing, she was so nice! Arguably the nicest person in the show. And when it happened was horrible as well.

I loath Season 6 of Buffy more than I can ever say.

Seeing Red is one of the greatest violations of story every put on TV. Completely foul in every way. From Spike's AR of Buffy to Tara's death, Whedon violated the trust of his viewers in ways he is paying for today. That was the episode in which they added Amber Benson to the credits as a full cast member. Steve DeKnight- a Buffy writer- had just told fans that Tara was not going anywhere, in public and on the The Bronze posting board. A pure example of the "kill your lesbian" trope that Whedon tried to push away by claiming he had to kill Tara to advance Willow's story, that no one was safe. He effectively cut off his entire LGBT audience, plus more. Entire posting boards were created in defiance of that, such as the Kitten Board. Robert Black wrote long articles about how Whedon could have gotten the same story without killing a gay character- and creating another example of the "evil, dead lesbian" trope as well. And then he and Marti Noxon had conversations in S7 about keeping Willow gay or not- and ended up with Kennedy as a poor man's sop. That was a shitty as it gets. It took nearly 20 years for Noxon to admit they made a mistake; Whedon never has. Amber Benson really never had anything more to do with Whedon- who ran into all sorts of problems when it turned out that the great feminist was sleeping with his stars while married to his wife.

Until he had Cordelia sleep with her own son in S4 of Angel, that is.

Here is my hot take- watch Wynonna Earp. Emily Andras, the showrunner, will never violate your trust and her program is so damned good it hurts.

[JJ88]

I liked that 6th series as a whole but as I said at the top of the page, Seeing Red is an episode I would dread when I re-watch. And for completely different reasons to The Body, obviously.

I did love Willow and Tara together. (By comparison, all of Buffy's relationships were a total horror-show. Poor girl!) Willow and Kennedy, no- there was nothing 'there' on screen. Rushed and forced.

The overall best series was the 3rd one, I'd say. One of the best I've seen of any show.

[Dana5140]

http://thekittenboard.net/thekitt/vi...php?f=7&t=2539

[JJ88]

Ouch, some of those quotes from the writers are really bad (all 'we won't ever do that' and then the show did it!). I hadn't seen any of those.

[Dana5140]

Yep. Then check out this book, entirely about S6 and 7:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...uffy-goes-dark

[Jerjo]

Just like my insistence that there is not a third Godfather film, a fourth Indiana Jones film, and only two Alien movies, Buffy ended after season five. It's my world and I like the weather in it.

I just found that Buffy streams free for Amazon Prime members (not sure if that is only in the US). My wife wants to watch seasons four and five again.

[JJ88]

I think I'd have issues with The Gift as it stands as a final end. It was an absolutely brilliant episode, but I don't think that Buffy's 'death' was registered enough. There's another scene literally right at the end of Angel S2 where Willow goes to Angel in LA to let him know about it, but that's only a few seconds as well.

I'm still watching Angel, am about halfway through S4. I like it- Alexis Denisof as Wesley is superb in this series- but not anything to do whiny, creepy Connor. Happily, the next episode up has Willow in it. I just love Willow!

[TheLoony]

Looking forward to your thoughts on Angel S5. It has a dark, yet hopeful, ending but as a whole there's so much great humor in there. Bringing Harmony back was a load of fun.

Lot of humor in the whole series, I'm thinking of Numfar and the Dance of Joy.

[Dana5140]

I'm still watching Angel, am about halfway through S4. I like it- Alexis Denisof as Wesley is superb in this series- but not anything to do whiny, creepy Connor. Happily, the next episode up has Willow in it. I just love Willow!

Okay, in S4, only the appearance of Willow saves anything. By that time, Alyson Hannigan was just gorgeous; hard to believe she is now 46 and doing Penn and Teller Fool us and cooking shows, along with some voiceover work for animated cartoons. Though she enjoyed working with her husband there (Denisof).



In Angel, really, to me the best episode was Five by Five back in S1, with Faith.

[JJ88]

Willow is definitely my favourite character. Not only is she wonderfully written and played but yes, Alyson Hannigan in those later series...and well, I'm human!

I'm trying to block out anything to do with Connor and Cordelia- really awful. Connor is easily the worst character in either show. But the rest of S4 has some great things- Wesley, the 'slight returns' of Faith and Angelus. Lorne is a lot of fun as a character too.

Lot of humor in the whole series, I'm thinking of Numfar and the Dance of Joy.

That whole Pylea thing in S2 was kind of odd. I can't say it was bad, but it came out of left field. I was really hooked on the dark Wolfram and Hart/Darla/Drusilla story, but then it all disappeared and we got this campy Pylea arc (where Fred was rescued from).

[Dana5140]

I thought Pylea was pretty stupid, really save for the Dance of Numfar- back when Whedon was still cool and not yet known as a serial adulterer and abuser on film sets. And Connnor Cordy- nope, nope nope. Incest, much?

[TheLoony]

You got me to pull out Angel S5. Had to see the astronaut/cavemen "debate" and it turns out to be one happy moment in a very sad episode Hole In The World. After that great funny scene it all goes downhill from there. Sets up the end of the series as they had been cancelled in the middle of filming. They were able to write a decent ending but man, that episode is hard to digest.