Buffy Season 5 Episode 16 "The Body"

[Jerjo]

OK, I saw SMG's statement. Yep, it's going to be a floodgate now. Next we'll likely start hearing from the actors in Firefly and the Avengers. This will not be pretty and he richly deserved it. I used to hang out on Whedonesque but quit because the hero-worship got sickening. I am glad they shut it all down when Kai revealed all.

We're slowly working our way through season 4 and hit "Hush" on Sunday night. The creepiest episode by a mile. And I believe it started with a criticism that the show was too dialog-heavy so they decided to do one without dialog.

[JJ88]

I've gotten the impression elsewhere that some in the Buffy/Angel cast (and not SMG/Boreanaz themselves) were and are personally friendly with him...so they may not comment. We'll see.

[Dana5140]

It gets worse. Now, Michelle Trachtenberg has also come out and her comment indicate something even darker and worse, since she was just a young teen (14) when she joined the show. Yes, some of the actors are/were friendly with him- Alexis Denisof and Aly Hannigan, Amy Acker in particular. I do not think we will hear from Hannigan on this because she has a new family-friendly movie to promote (Flora and Ulysses), so the timing could not be worse. There has been no comments from anyone on Firefly as yet, nor from his past producers such as Marti Noxon and Jane Espenson. But Noxon has said that she felt they went too far in SPOILER ALERT killing Tara. And she and Jane have moved on to bigger and better. Jerjo, I was a regular on Whedonesque as well- and you should see their twitter comment from yesterday. They have to feel the huge fool now.

I was saddened to read last year that Benson got online abuse back in the day. And also that it was Marti Noxon who pushed for her to be cast.

Yes. Amber spoke at length over how she was called fat, at size 8, since she was surrounded by wraiths such as Hannigan and Gellar. And how Whedon wanted a small and slight person to be Hannigan's love interest and it was Noxon who thought the more regular sized Benson might be better. It has been 20 years since she was in the show now- hard to believe. She is 43, and Hannigan is 46.

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https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-56023198

[JJ88]

The Trachtenberg comments- not sure what to make of them, really.

I watched that Paley Fest 2008 thing last year with SMG and Whedon on the same panel- that was very, very chilly, for a whole variety of reasons.

[Dana5140]

And now James Leary (Clem, the Gentlemen) and Clare Kramer (Glory) have also weighed in in support. And Emma Caulfield (Anya) has been liking posts from all involved (and likely is staying low since she just got a role on Wandavision). But Michelle's comments are really disturbing, since when she joined in S5 she was only 14.

Doubt Boreanaz and Brendon will say anything, as both have had abuse charges thrown at them in the past. I wonder if Eliza Dushku has anything to say, as she already had an issue with Bull and won that case. And no word from Felicia Day either. But she was only in S7 then. What this means is that almost every female actor with a major role in Buffy outside of Alyson Hannigan and ED has claimed abusive behavior.

[Dana5140]

The Trachtenberg comments- not sure what to make of them, really.

I watched that Paley Fest 2008 thing last year with SMG and Whedon on the same panel- that was very, very chilly, for a whole variety of reasons.

Michelle has now stated that there was a rule on set that he was not allowed to ever be alone with her, after some unspecified episode had happened. At the time this happened, she was 15. Eliza Dushku has also come out in support. And Whedonesque twitter account has changed its name to Wh*donesque. I do not see how Whedon recovers from this.

[JJ88]

I think the fact it is an- as you say- 'unspecified episode' does make it difficult to comment directly upon, and possibly legally complicated. So I won't. It seemed from what I have read that Whedon was heading into 'cancelled' territory even before this week.

After having gotten into it so much last year, I just feel very deflated by the whole thing. Anthony Head was interviewed on TV and looked genuinely saddened by it all.

[Dana5140]

Yeah, I don't see how he comes back from this. This is entering pretty serious territory, and overnight several of his former writers and others have also commented, nothing good. Jose Molina, Marti Noxon, and now Danny Strong, who is today a very serious Hollywood player, well above where Joss is.

[Dana5140]

David Boreanaz has come out in support of her as has Marti Noxon.

[Jerjo]

It's an avalanche now. The bigger stars are giving the others cover. Joss won't have to be applying for unemployment but it's a big blow to a mighty big ego.

[JJ88]

I've been following the whole saga. It's a really horrible mess. Apparently Nicholas Brendon has said something about Whedon's behaviour 'transgressions' on set- I can't see how anyone can deny there were issues. Though Amy Acker's statement was very carefully worded.

Actually I'm not sure how comfortable I am with people being hounded to make sanitised, bland PR statements for social media. Charisma Carpenter noted that some of her old cast-mates have been privately supporting her from the start.

I'm finishing off Angel but with a sense of deflation. Nice to see Cordelia back on top form in You're Welcome, but that last phonecall felt unnecessary. I knew she met her maker in this series, but not how. Until recently (though before last week), I didn't know that she was only in this one episode of S5. Some now interesting details about this episode on Wikipedia- the Christian Kane quotes especially.

Wynonna Earp S3 should be on next week- it's still scheduled, at least.

[JJ88]

I did very much like the 'Angel is a puppet' episode Smile Time- Lorne had the best line ('is there a Geppetto in the house?'). The submarine episode Why We Fight was very weak, as was that wrestling one earlier in the run.

The 'let's bring in some of the Buffy cast' element is unnecessary. It's a fairly large cast as it is. I didn't want to see Andrew again and I don't care for Harmony that much.

[Dana5140]

IMO, the biggest mistake Buffy ever made was elevating Andrew, Jonathan and Warren. I did not like the fey "is he or isn't he" gay routine with Andrew. Plus, the whole group was boring. The only good add of Buffy to Angel was a few eps with Faith- Five By Five was superb- a couple with Buffy and the 2 with Willow.

BTW, Nick Brendon is having spinal surgery in the next few days. Mercedes McNab played Harmony and I think she remains best known for her role in Adams Family Values (though she had a small role in The Adams Family" "Would you like to buy some Girl Scout cookies?" "Are they made with real girl scouts?").

[JJ88]

I watched a couple of panels (including the 2008 one with Whedon) which had Brendon on YouTube last year, and that was kind of enough for me.

My favourite non-Buffy-related Angel episode thus far was Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?, set in a hotel during early 50s America.

I've read good things about the back-half of Angel S5. I have picked up vague spoilers about this Fred/Illyria thing, but nothing too specific. Gunn has done some sort of 'deal' to keep his legal knowledge so I'm guessing that's related.

[JJ88]

Wondering if Dana5140 or anyone else has read the Buffy comics? I saw some details of what's within them. If that's where the TV show would have gone, I'm glad the show ended when it did. The final episode Chosen had its issues (as did S7 generally in my view) but it overall feels like a good ending.

S3 of Wynonna Earp starts 2am. I don't think the first part of S4 will be on this channel- I think it's streaming somewhere else- but we'll see.

[Dana5140]

I have all the comics, both from Dark Horse and from Boom. These are hit or miss. The early comics built on the show while it was still on; the second iteration made it Season 8-10, and those were exceedingly stupid. Boom is a reboot, where Willow is already out, Xander becomes a vampire, and I do not find it all that good- old people show up in new roles (but not Tara, as is always the case). The comics are for completists. The second iteration was truly deplorable- Buffy faced an enemy called, yes, Twilight- who turned out to be ***Spoiler*** Angel- who Buffy slept with, meaning she slept with the man trying to kill her or else did not have any agency when she did and therefore was raped... well, you have to read it to understand how badly it goes off the rails... and yes, Joss was still involved then. There are a ton of series comics as well.

However, one great line did come from an early comic, Tara speaking to Willow "My heart doesn't stutter."

Tara: "Willow? Look at me. Would I ever do anything to hurt you? You're my best friend and I love you. I could never work spells with anyone else. There wouldn't be any magic in it."
Willow: "I know. I was just a little, okay, whoa, y'know? But I do know. That was beautiful, what you said? And you didn't stutter once."
Tara: "My heart doesn't stutter."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Slayer_comics

[JJ88]

Thanks. Yes I'd seen vague references to Angel/Twilight online last year, and at first I thought people meant those Twilight books/films! I haven't seen much about the earlier comics.

[Jerjo]

We did a couple more episodes of Buffy S4 last night, the big story arc is building and Spike found out he can fight evil.

[JJ88]

I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but it's a shame Professor Walsh only lasted half of that series. I've only seen most of those Initiative episodes once, but I thought she was a far more effective/sinister villain than her creation Adam, who talked way too much. I loved that scene in the episode A New Man where Giles got out of the car just to shout nonsense at and scare Professor Walsh!

The action choreographer/SMG's stunt double was changed after S4, some drama involving Whedon again seems to have been responsible. Although obvious stunt doubling was an issue, I felt the action choreography wasn't as good in the later series. The Buffy/Faith fights in S3/S4 were particularly good.

I'm getting to the end of Angel S5 and have just started Wynonna Earp S3. The latter has started dramatically and strongly, with the death of a main character in the second episode. I'd seen a spoiler but didn't expect it to happen so soon in S3.

[JJ88]

Whedon Variety article here. Despite being 'exclusive', it doesn't really tell us anything new beyond what was reported a few weeks ago]. Anonymity was demanded by those (no actors) interviewed. Someone claims the Trachtenberg 'rule' was allegedly down to an 'improper verbal exchange'. And some corroboration of Charisma Carpenter being poorly treated throughout her run on both shows.

https://variety.com/2021/tv/features...ce-1234915549/

I'd already gathered last year that his and SMG's relationship wasn't really that great. Professional respect, but that's about as far as it went.

[Dana5140]

Well, the stunt double story is more of same: https://screenrant.com/buffy-vampire...nt-team-abuse/

I did not really care much for Maggie Walsh, or Adam for that matter. The Initiative was sort of stupid story line. S4 for me was all Willow and Tara, much more so than Buffy and Riley. And then wait for the last episode... and the cheese...

[JJ88]

There were certain episodes within S4 I watched twice last year. The Initiative didn't play that much of a part in any of them. That storyline didn't lead up to much of anything really.

Who Are You with SMG channeling Eliza Dushku's Faith who'd bodyswapped wth Buffy (!), that was brilliant. 'Because it's wrong!'.

[Dana5140]

"Willow's not driving stick any more."

[JJ88]

^I love all the little touches SMG brings to that episode. She nails Faith's coarse way of speaking (like that particular line!), her very un-lady-like posture and stuff like that. You can tell she really enjoyed playing Faith.

The Body is now twenty years old. It was the 'featured article' on Wikipedia yesterday.

I've now finished Angel S5. I found it an up-and-down series, the worst and the best the show had ever been at the same time. I think it was somewhat undermined by the Buffy add-ons, the core Angel characters were enough by themselves.

The last episode Not Fade Away was terrific but am not sure how I feel about the very last scene. It's not the 'full stop' that Chosen was.

[Dana5140]

That ending was one they had to come up with quickly since they had found out about the non renewal not long before. I suppose its existential...