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Thread: Some Gnosis2000 questions

  1. #76
    False Number 9 Pr33t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    ...And the other is a certain degree of respect to the historical significance of an album (that's why I used Forever Changes as an example). I may not like Tangerine Dream for example, and maybe they are not to my taste, but I wouldn't go there and throw 6 and 7 to their albums, since I understand how important a band they were in the development of music. I would pprobably not rate their albums at all, or would lift their ratings taking into account their significance.
    Speaking for my own ratings, I would disagree with this statement. The distillation to a single number for a rating is simply how much I enjoy listening to any given album, and how I compare it to other albums I have heard/rated. I think that written reviews are the place to expound on the other contextual elements, but that's just me.

    This has been an interesting thread - I distinctly recall threads of this nature about fifteen years ago that were much more directed at finding fault with the site and bashing it. I'm glad to see it still provides a useful reference for many.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    ...the one thing to stretch here is that any kind of evaluation has to stem from some specific understanding of progressive music. It would be insane to give Henry Cow a "5" and then Sleepytime Gorilla Museum a 14. Or Black Sabbath a "4" and then Candlemass a 15. When someone isn't really into psych music, a "7" is expected for Love.
    I would find that person insane, but I think it is perfectly acceptable to rate solely on how much the rater likes a particular album, rather than contextually. There are plenty of albums in a style where I might be the outlier that likes someone three generations down the line, rather than the originator. I'll risk raising you're ire here and admit that while I can see the significance of Zappa, I'd take a Euro knock-off of Zappaesque jazz-rock over the real deal most any day Though if it makes you feel better, I do have a 14 on Forever Changes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Camelogue View Post
    Sounds like raters are not as active as they might have once been.
    This is one place where the site falls flat for me, and I wish there would be more enforcement of having people keep up with their ratings. We all have other things happening outside of rating for a website, but as a long-time member and user of the site, I could do with a purge of at least two of those rows.

  2. #77
    False Number 9 Pr33t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Who are these raters? Is it a fixed club? Who chose them and under what criteria? Any of these raters active members here in PE?
    It's all rather Masonic, initiation ceremonies, meetings with robes donned under candlelight... or at least it was in the beginning when it was ruled by the Prognoscenti. Then they let people like me in...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    More recent music tends to be overlooked in my opinion. I understand that there are guidelines, but one rarely sees a new record crossing the "11" ceiling. Seems a bit unfair, I don't know.

    My feeling is that the raters are too Prog-oriented.
    I think that's a really good point, and I know those of us who are part of the site and who use it would certainly like to see people on there who can keep up with what is current, though I have to admit to being something of the opposite. Fifteen years ago I was up on what was current and always buying new releases. Nowadays I find myself predominantly listening to things from the late 60s through the late 70s. There's an astounding amount of things from that time period that are still under the radar, and as you mentioned elsewhere, seem to have an intrinsic, if not stylistic, similarity that appeals to me so much more than anything modern.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    The site would be so much better if a bit more information would be displayed about the raters, only the name pops up, however if next to the name, styles the rater like and dislike would be shown ... that would be really useful

    Many times I check an album, a few raters go for 7-8, others for 12, if a little window would open when I point out a rater and I discover he loves styles I dislike then the 12 is meaningless to me or the 8 becomes relevant.

    As it is is complicated, I can't learn/ check or know 120 raters.

    It's a horrible experience and kills the page for that purpose, but if instead of getting the rater name when you put the cursor on any of those 3 mysterious letters you get the whole information you stay on the page and chan check as many raters as you want.

    Gnosis will suddenly be a lot more fun.
    I lament the fact that the URL of the site is essentially nominative determinism - the look and feel of it never seemed to get past the 20th century. Things like this would be incredibly useful. It is cumbersome to go back and forth to find out things about the raters, but honestly, it's the best way. I've been familiar with the site so long I know what to expect from the first three rows, but I admit I'm in the same boat as you with the remaining ones, unless I happen to know where a specific person sits outside of that range.

    The wealth of data still keeps me going back, despite these things. I still don't know a better, concentrated resource for this type of music.

  3. #78
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    I suppose if some rater has been inactive for a year or more, they should probably be asked to recommit or resign

    I've been very active at rating new albums and re-rating older ones about once a week, but I'm not sure how many other raters are as active as I am
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  4. #79
    Thanks for your comments Pr33t

  5. #80
    I did try to establish contact but to no avail.

    Something as what usually happens in real life...

  6. #81
    Member ashratom's Avatar
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    Hi... just sent you a private PM. My apologies, as I've been out traveling for business all week and haven't been here on PE. Anyway.... more to come. Hang in there

  7. #82
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashratom View Post
    Hi... just sent you a private PM. My apologies, as I've been out traveling for business all week and haven't been here on PE. Anyway.... more to come. Hang in there
    I got nothing either.
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by ashratom View Post
    Hi... just sent you a private PM. My apologies, as I've been out traveling for business all week and haven't been here on PE. Anyway.... more to come. Hang in there
    Cheers, thank you!

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    Well, Tom, without you and Dirk (and Mike) we (or at least I) wouldn't be anywhere in our/my search for weird and great music.
    Indeed. Maybe not weird (I don't listen to weird music ;-)) but your site Tom, helped me find many obscure titles. And thank you for accepting me as a reviewer. If I remember correctly I had to wait few years before this happened. I became one right after famous/infamous Proto-Prog Poll on old PE, same time as Chris (nosebone).
    Great site for research and finding challenging, unconventional, hard to find music.

  10. #85
    Member ashratom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigmatic View Post
    Indeed. Maybe not weird (I don't listen to weird music ;-)) but your site Tom, helped me find many obscure titles. And thank you for accepting me as a reviewer. If I remember correctly I had to wait few years before this happened. I became one right after famous/infamous Proto-Prog Poll on old PE, same time as Chris (nosebone).
    Great site for research and finding challenging, unconventional, hard to find music.
    Thanks! Sometimes it seems I write these reviews only for myself to read...

    (Ian - sent you a note as well....)

  11. #86
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Sooooo, just checking up how our new members doing after roughly six weeks residency....
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  12. #87
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Haven't been given any sign in details yet so waiting on Dirk.
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Sooooo, just checking up how our new members doing after roughly six weeks residency....
    If by residency u mean waiting at the doorstep, it's ok. Just a bit cold...

  14. #89
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    MMmhhh!!!!....



    if I asked, it's because I didn't see your names and spots on the grid appearing
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  15. #90
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Apparently we are now up on the site, now I have to work out how to log in and start rating. Can someone private message me the details?
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  16. #91
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    Looking forward to ratings and even reviews from both of you. Please keep us posted.

  17. #92
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Got my log in details so I guess I should start organizing the ratings on my albums
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  18. #93
    So, I have started rating records for Gnosis, and it's a pretty overwhelming experience. The amount of music to be rated, plus the fact that most of it hasn't been listened to in years, plus the little, torturing nuances ("Annexus Quam first: is it a 12, or a 13?) is a bit too much for any rational being.

    What I have done is to focus on recent years and I have already rated almost all of my music from years 2017 to 2020 in a cohere way. Since I have a fresh impression from it, it's easier and more valid to rate. For anyone interested. I am at the bottom, left corner of the grid, with the abbreviation Sak (standing for my real surname Sakkas - I hate to know how this sounds for a native English-speaker, but when I spent a year in London studying, a mate had told me that if I planned to stay in UK I wouldn't go far with that name ).

    I have also added a lot of albums missing for people to rate - how could Richard Dawson's amazing last year effort go unnoticed? I intend to update with new releases as soon as possible.

    For the rest of my ratings, I have started randomly putting at a very slow rate some grades, but I wouldn't pay any real attention: I need a lot of time to present a cohere corpus of ratings (there are more than 150 thousand records in the database!)

    I welcome any feedback, death-threats in particular

  19. #94
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    I already gave Ian the stuff below in a PM, but I have no idea if that helps him or not


    - Once you start rating, you can do it alphabetically (by searching nothing selected, and you will start with the numbers, I think), but it can get tiresome, as there is over 150K albums in the database.

    - So I suggest at first to do the easy ones (your classics), but also not think the group-alone and rate indside at the group's discography, but pit them against other bands. For ex, your top Crimson album may not be on the same level as you top Gentle Giant or VdGG album.

    - I guess you've seen the meaning of all the rating (from 00 to 15) and they can be found under the terms & abbreviation tab. Keeping the window open or printing the text and keeping it next to the screen is very helpful to rate accurately (whatever that may be).

    - I tend to review from the middle figure 8 (which is average) and work my way up, and not abusing of the 13 and above ratings. I have never used a Gnosis 15, as there is no perfection in music, but that me. I am HCh fifth across, fourth down, BTW.

    - Of course, since one buys and keeps the stuff he likes, the median in your collection is probably not a Gnosis 8, but a Gnosis 9.5, so it's kind of logic that anything that's between 7 and 10 should be the most numerous ratings ( pyramid of sorts) once you're done going through the vast majority of what's in the DB.

    - Of course, not everything is in, and every year, there are anywhere between 4 & 8 000 new entries which needs to be rated (or not by entering 00) via upodates (I guess I shoud take a look at whatever's left unrated for me). EDIT: I've got almost 3000 new ratings to do (about 95% will be 00), and I think I last update late last year.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  20. #95
    I'VE BEEN SITTIN' HERE
    JUMPIN' UP'N'DOWN FOR TWO YEARS
    EAGERLY ANTICIPATIN'
    RATIN'
    THAT LOTTA
    ISOPOTTA,
    DAMMIT!
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  21. #96
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    I've started with bands I know well with at least half a dozen albums so I can quickly compare them to each other. I'm going to wait until I have a couple of hundred rated so I can compare them and see how my pattern holds up. So far I'm at 65.

    I'm looking to make sure I have less than 20 at 15's and around 100 as 14's then rank the rest below that based on comparison. I'm having fun revisiting a bunch of albums.

    I'm not going to start trawling around in general until I've got the bulk of my 2,000 albums up.

    My average is likely to be nearer to 10 or 11 given I don't hang onto any albums I don't consider "slightly above average"
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    I'VE BEEN SITTIN' HERE
    JUMPIN' UP'N'DOWN FOR TWO YEARS
    EAGERLY ANTICIPATIN'
    RATIN'
    THAT LOTTA
    ISOPOTTA,
    DAMMIT!
    I would kill to see any ratings from you, but in particular the Michael Bolton records

  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    - Of course, since one buys and keeps the stuff he likes, the median in your collection is probably not a Gnosis 8, but a Gnosis 9.5, so it's kind of logic that anything that's between 7 and 10 should be the most numerous ratings ( pyramid of sorts) once you're done going through the vast majority of what's in the DB.
    Thanx for the info, although I don't agree with the absence of 15, I mean an album can be something like 14,9 - so it's not perfect but it deserves a 15. But it's not my business.

    I guess the median has to do with how willing is someone to rate music that he doesn't like, or if even it's worth the trouble.

    One of the things I don't really get is why someone should put a zero to an album he doesn't know, instead of leaving it blank (most raters I believe leave it blank, I haven't seen many zeros)

  24. #99
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    My understanding is that the zero flags albums that you have no intention of ranking. So for instance the first thing I did was review the list of new releases for 2020, add zero's to all the ones I'm not looking at and add unrated to the ones I have or will buy. So that list now looks like

    Chromb
    Dai Kaht
    The Necks
    JG Thirlwell & Simon Steensland
    Dr Nerve
    Zopp

    Now when I look at new for 2020 I only get the albums added since I did the update.
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  25. #100
    ^ Ok, this makes sense and sounds practical - thanks

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