Writing Progressive music

[Whiskeyvengeance]

I seem to remember Robert Fripp posting pics of the original music notation to Red and other pieces on his diary a few years back.

[yoyiceu]

And I seem to recall McCartney once saying that he had taught himself to read music.

[bill g]

I can't stand writing music down and will only do it for hired musicians that prefer reading to playing by ear. It's time consuming for the likes of me that does most everything by ear/memory. Occasionally, I'll have a melody in my head and if I'm not home with my instruments, I'll write it down to remember it. I think many are like me in the camp where they can read and write music but prefer not to, and really like it if a hired musician can just play by ear!

[bill g]

And wasn't there a Mike Johnson interview recently where he talked about scoring everything out for Thinking Plague? And how about Miriador?

I'm almost certain a couple members (don't recall which members) had sheet music in front of them when I saw them a few years back. I would almost expect so with such split-second perfection. If they could all do all of that strictly by feel and memory I'd be all the more amazed.

[Mister Triscuits]

I've always written things out, but since computers and DAWs came into the equation, and since I'm not writing for other people, I rarely produce finished scores anymore. Now I mainly just write out the bare skeleton of the piece, and specific parts that I will be playing, and the finished piece is assembled in the DAW with a lot of copying and pasting and editing and sequencing, plus the manipulation of elements like electronic noises that were never notatable to begin with.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I'm almost certain a couple members (don't recall which members) had sheet music in front of them when I saw them a few years back. I would almost expect so with such split-second perfection. If they could all do all of that strictly by feel and memory I'd be all the more amazed.

Early TPlague stuff was probably possible to memorize; later certainly isn't. It's simply too densely detailed and consistantly dissonant. Which makes it all the more impressive to know how Deborah Perry (vocalist on two records) described herself as a "[…] lousy reader" - as those are some ridiculously challenging vocal charts. Mike J. doesn't merely write his material, he does so with a conscious eye to rather strict theory (although he's apparently self-taught) - prompting some folks to designate TP as "not rock". Which is bullshit, of course.

A lot of the so-called "rehearsal-intensive" artists whom Steve F. presented through his Cuneiform label were necessarily writers/readers; Blast, Miriodor, Woodson's Ellipsis (to the extreme!), P.F.S., Grigsby/U Totem, Kerman, Far Corner, Ahvak and so on. Still I get the impression that some of these acts also featured the odd musician who might've had to learn by head and heart.

The densest "rock" chart I ever saw myself was one Tsuneo Imahori wrote for his then-current band, Tipographica. I believe it was one of the pieces for the God Says I Can't Dance release. Other near-to-impossibly dense stuff in more recent times were some of Weasel Walter's stuff for The Flying Luttenbachers (particularly his last title under that moniker, Incarceration by Abstraction) and those two albums by Normal Love. Charlie Looker also wrote all of his exceedingly demanding material for Extra Life, just as he did when playing with Zs.

[Rarebird]

I started with writing down music. The first stuff I did on a computer was with a programm that worked the same way as sheet-music, so putting notes in a score. Then I switched to other programs, which didn't work with scores, or where scores were something like an aftertought. The first stuff I did with those, I wrote down on paper, before putting it in a computer. Later I wrote a piece for piano, which was supposed to be played by an accomplished classical pianist, but in the end he didn't have the time to study it, which would take several weeks. So I had to put the music in the computer and it was performed that way.
With the current version of Cubase (or at least the version I use, there have been a few updates since then) I use the score mode to get a good view of what is going on in what I'm writing. It makes it easier to see what all instruments are doing.
I'm not an accomplished player and would never be able to play anything I've written.

[Bob Drake]

Very Interesting, I will have to check out Musescore - it looks like a totally free open-source kinda thing.
So may I ask do you currently use the studio as a technique to develop complex arrangements <and compositions rather than scoring?

I sure do, and always have. The way I usually do it is once a song’s skeleton is complete from start to end (that’s to say, a melody and guitar chords) and ready for recording, I record myself just strumming the chords and humming the still usually wordless melody. That’s what I build upon, working out a bass part, piano or whatever, seeing how it works and how it "wants" to develop, and throw away the guide track as soon as it’s not needed anymore. A song is always open to whatever might happen while recording, and I always rely on that, very much! I may have definite arrangement ideas in mind, and/or they suggest themselves as I work.

With my very short experience so far with notation, it’s certainly a different way to compose and weirdly fascinating to have that restriction of little rectangles into which the notes have to be somehow arranged to get something like what you’re imagining. I’m seeing what a clever system musical notation really is. Maybe a less “organic” way to come up with music but I’m enjoying it a lot, there are other, different benefits I can see right away, and trust that the more I understand it the easier it’ll be to make it do what I’m imagining. That said, I like the idea that I'll come up with things I wouldn't have otherwise, because of the constraints of notation and/or my slim knowledge thereof. And of course like all my songs, the notation-composed ones will be open to whatever happens while recording, I always count on that!

Some of you have mentioned Mike Johnson and T Plague. Even back when we did the first album in the 80‘s, I seem to recall Mike would write things on paper, though I couldn’t read and would learn it by ear and come up with my own parts and arrangements. (Mike??? you here?) There was one funny TPlague thing related to notation: the last thing I did with Plague was that “Etude for Organism” in the mid-90‘s. There’s a bit with a funny baritone sax melody. I’d come up with that melody on guitar, and Mike wrote it out for Mark Harris to play on the recording. When we got to recording it and Mark played it, we looked at each other and thought what the hell is going on... it was in the wrong key, Mike hadn’t realized at the time (or hadn’t bothered, whichever) that it had to be transposed for the instrument. Mark (extremely good reader) said he could transpose it on the spot, but we liked it as it was!

BD
www.bdrak.com

[Zeuhlmate]

[...] but we liked it as it was!

BD
www.bdrak.com

[Scrotum Scissor]

Indeed; one of the highlights there!

[Paulrus]

Mark (extremely good reader) said he could transpose it on the spot, but we liked it as it was!

Me: Can read music after long, tortured examination
Real musicians: Can sight read
Godlike musicians: Can transpose in real time

[Buddhabreath]

I'm currently attempting graduate from the "long, tortured examination" category to the "barely literate reader" category you just have to stick at it. Regardless, I would say that there are plenty of spectacular musicians that cannot read a note of music and probably crappy musicians that can read proficiently.

[Rick L.]

For me, notation comes in handy if you need to sub out a musician. A good reader can get up to performance speed pretty quickly. Sometimes there is no time to "go home and figure out the parts". Nothing wrong with learning by ear. I do it all the time. And, time allowed, I almost always play shows by memory. I have found it useful to have all the written parts available, though. By entering my material into notation software (I use finale), I can easily separate parts, transpose parts, etc., and also have a MIDI file of the composition and parts for people to listen to whether or not they can read notation. Double win!

I also occasionally work with "classical" players and write "chamber music", so the people I use for those projects are sometimes not used to learning by ear, or don't have time to do so. By notating all the articulations and dynamics, I can get a pretty solid performance out of an experienced classical musician.

For a jazz tune, I just write the melody and harmonize it with chord changes. If I have a solid lead sheet, I can bring a tune to any jazz gig and have it played, no problem. Reading also comes in handy for random jazz gigs or sub situations. Recording studio work as well. Charts can be a life saver in a recording studio. Sadly, I almost never do recording work anymore.

[Zappathustra]

I am glad I started this: some great remarks by real musicians on the significance and role of formal musical education.

I would guess that music colleges graduates like Roby Driver and Nils Holger...I mean Nils Frykdahl, are also using scores in their albums.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I would guess that music colleges graduates like Roby Driver and Nils Holger...I mean Nils Frykdahl, are also using scores in their albums.

Toby (Roby) Driver does; even though most of the musicians in his current projects differ from the ones who featured on the original (older) Kayo recordings, his songs and works are performed almost exactly as conceived. Nils (Lars Holger) Frykdahl also writes, at least a good bulk of it; there was an interview in which he addressed this specifically in regard to SGM and Free Salamander Exhibit. I don't know if Dawn McCarthy (and Nils/Lars) uses sheets for Faun Fables, but that wouldn't surprise me either.

[Lebofsky]

I am glad I started this: some great remarks by real musicians on the significance and role of formal musical education.

I would guess that music colleges graduates like Roby Driver and Nils Holger...I mean Nils Frykdahl, are also using scores in their albums.

Having worked with both a lot, yes. But I don't think either exclusively use scores. Just for the harder bits where the composer needs to organize their thoughts to realize a vision, and/or maximize efficiency when teaching others.

Here's a fun story about scoring with Toby. There was one Secret Chiefs 3 tour coming up where we were growing tired of the usual barnstormers so we hoped to incorporate some new arrangements of old tunes. Trey was too busy to even consider this, so Toby and I took it upon ourselves to figure out some tunes by ear and score them for the band so we could learn them on our own just show up and play them live. Among several other tunes Toby scored Lapis Baitulous. He sent me his work and I was shocked to see he heard it as the crazy minefield of odd time signatures. I heard it entirely as 4/4 (with one bar on 2/4 during the whole "head"). So I rescored it, and sent it to Kenny. Timba, having played on the recording, didn't bother looking at the score.

So we showed up to our first soundcheck and Kenny counted off and we jumped right in. Right away Trey and Timba were shocked and confused. Turns out the way I heard it had a completely different downbeat than Trey intended. I mean really different: my score was written 3 eighth notes off from the intended downbeat. For the life of me I (nor Kenny) couldn't and still cant hear it the "right" way. So counting that tune off to play live was a bit tricky. So much for scoring!

Meanwhile, I was also playing in miRthkon at the time, and Wally from that band heard I was scoring SC3 tunes for the upcoming tour. He asked in great hope, "are you doing Owl in Daylight?" I said there was no way I could figure that out by ear in time for the tour. So he took it upon himself to transcribe it from the recording. He pretty much did so in a single day. Wally is an amazing musician. That song has all kinds of weird tuplets, 12 tone madness, and tempo disturbances, and he captured it all. But Owl in Daylight, even with the score, was impossible to pull off without major rehearsal (and as a paltry five piece), so it sadly didn't happen... Maybe someday.......

- Matt

[noisynoise]

Me: Can read music after long, tortured examination
Real musicians: Can sight read
Godlike musicians: Can transpose in real time

Sight-transposing is something that non-concert key instrument (saxophones, for example are Bb or Eb) players get used to doing, since often they are given piano or guitar sheet music to deal with. I learned to do it by necessity...it just takes a bit of practice, but you already need to be a good sight-reader.

[Zappathustra]

The densest "rock" chart I ever saw myself was one Tsuneo Imahori wrote for his then-current band, Tipographica. I believe it was one of the pieces for the God Says I Can't Dance release.

Yeah, it comes as no surprise that Tipographica scores it: this is fantastically dense stuff, with some serious details on the arrangements level, which resembles the most difficult pieces of Zappa.

And yet music that still arrives at the listener as fairly "light" to absorb and digest, maintaining a perfect equilibrium between melody and dissonance. That debut is an outright masterpiece in my opinion.

[progmatist]

And I seem to recall McCartney once saying that he had taught himself to read music.

He was interviewed just a couple of weeks ago on 60 Minutes. He stated he (still) doesn't know how to read.

[progmatist]

Modest Mussorgsky was a brilliant composer specifically because he wasn't educated. He didn't know what rules he was breaking. Had he known the rules, he likely would've adhered to them, and been just another run of the mill composer.

[Baribrotzer]

Mike J. doesn't merely write his material, he does so with a conscious eye to rather strict theory (although he's apparently self-taught) - prompting some folks to designate TP as "not rock". Which is bullshit, of course.

Mike doesn't really follow any kind of formalized theory. He understands it, and has read about it, but when it comes to actually composing, he does so almost entirely by sound and by ear. Much of that, though, has been developed by an extensive listening to Twentieth-Century orchestral music, particularly the extended tonality of Shostakovich and William Schuman, until he's gotten that sound and musical vocabulary "in his ear", so to speak, and "hears" his own music in that idiom. But he doesn't think something like, "OK, for these three bars I'm going to put the bass in G Lydian, guitar 2 in G Mixolydian, guitar 1 in G Aeolian (i.e. minor), and the clarinet in G Locrian"; even if the music might wind up as something like that. It's more that he hears those particular notes as "the right notes" for that point in the music.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Mike doesn't really follow any kind of formalized theory. He understands it, and has read about it, but when it comes to actually composing, he does so almost entirely by sound and by ear. Much of that, though, has been developed by an extensive listening to Twentieth-Century orchestral music,

Which, I suppose, is what sets so much of his stuff apart from more "scholared" types of formal composition in modern avantgarde rock (Charlie Looker, Zs, Tyondai Braxton, Tim Byrnes with Friendly Bears etc.). This was also what set Tim Hodgkinson's input with Henry Cow apart from Lindsay Cooper's; the former being homeschooled in piano and clarinet but not in composition, meaning that he learned "[…] just by simply doing it", which he says in the booklet to Each In Our Own Thoughts. I guess this is why side A of HC's Western Culture sounds rather different from Cooper's work on side B, the latter being academically trained in music.

[Guitarplyrjvb]

I don’t want to speak for TP’s Mike, but he’s posted sections of his scores on this forum.

[Baribrotzer]

Which, I suppose, is what sets so much of his stuff apart from more "scholared" types of formal composition in modern avantgarde rock (Charlie Looker, Zs, Tyondai Braxton, Tim Byrnes with Friendly Bears etc.).

I wonder what the actual difference is? Is there really anything quantifiable? Or is it that, since we know Mike is primarily self-taught, we ascribe various qualities of his music that are unique to him to his lack of formal training?

One difference I think I can hear is that for those other composers you mention, what they don't do is at least as important as what they do, what they leave out matters as much or more than what they put in. Not only are there no wasted notes, but sometimes notes or sections or structural turns you might expect aren't there either. I don't get that sense of restraint as a whole esthetic, as a goal in itself from Mike. Of course, there's also the issue that Charlie Looker et al are considerably younger, and would thus have studied from various music-school composition faculties steeped in Minimalism, whereas that movement does not seem to have ever been much of an influence on Mike.

However, there's one other musical idiom in which you can hear the work of both trained classical composers and self-taught rock guys - namely, movie scores. And I think I hear a similar quality, even in older composers whose training and influences long predate the Minimalist movement. Think about Morricone or Herrmann as opposed to Elfman or Zimmer - even at their densest and most dissonant, the former two give a sense that every note is contributing, whereas the latter two can be "messy" (for want of a better word).