Page 1 of 8 12345678 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 181

Thread: Patrick Moraz in Relayer

  1. #1

    Patrick Moraz in Relayer

    Now - I thought long and hard about posting this - however, I have wondering about this for as long as I've known "Relayer" - and that is a long time.... so feel like I have to ask....

    Is it me or Patrick Moraz is barely audible on "Relayer" - specially on "Gates" - even "Soundchaser" - yes he is very audible in the piano introduction - but after that he kind of disappears - and again, specially on "Gates", I am never sure if what I think I hear from Patrick is not actually Steve under a ton of effects... Move on to the stuff he plays on in Yesshows - Ritual and again Gates... again, barely audible...

    Compare with Refugee's eponymous album... now you know why he was hired... a tour de force - now here, the hope would have been to turn up the keys even more so Lee's voice was not audible! (I kid I kid)

    Anybody in agreement - or is it just that my equipment/hearing/listening abilities are crappy?

    v

  2. #2
    Member adap2it's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Ontario Canada
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally Posted by vmartell View Post
    Now - I thought long and hard about posting this - however, I have wondering about this for as long as I've known "Relayer" - and that is a long time.... so feel like I have to ask....

    Is it me or Patrick Moraz is barely audible on "Relayer" - specially on "Gates" - even "Soundchaser" - yes he is very audible in the piano introduction - but after that he kind of disappears - and again, specially on "Gates", I am never sure if what I think I hear from Patrick is not actually Steve under a ton of effects... Move on to the stuff he plays on in Yesshows - Ritual and again Gates... again, barely audible...

    Compare with Refugee's eponymous album... now you know why he was hired... a tour de force - now here, the hope would have been to turn up the keys even more so Lee's voice was not audible! (I kid I kid)

    Anybody in agreement - or is it just that my equipment/hearing/listening abilities are crappy?

    v
    My favorite YES album...because Patrick Moraz is on keys! and very audible.
    Dave Sr.

    I prefer Nature to Human Nature

  3. #3
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    9,155
    Mine too.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by adap2it View Post
    My favorite YES album...because Patrick Moraz is on keys! and very audible.
    Pretty much ditto. Never had any issues hearing Moraz on Relayer, and I love the album for among other things his contributions.

    Bill

  5. #5
    Moraz wasn't "hired" for Refugee. He was the main force behind that band, wrote most of their music and it was very, very keyboard-dominated. It probably reflects Moraz's deep musical leanings, where a lot of people tend to assume he was behind the move to a more jazz-fusion sound from "Tales" to "Relayer". In fact, that move was prompted by Howe, Squire and White, and Moraz just proved able, because he also had a jazz background, to be the perfect keyboard player for that particular dlrection.

    I think Moraz's contribution to "Relayer" is remarkable, and far from inaudible. Of course, because much of the album was already written by the time he joined (his main contribution as a composer was, precisely, the intro to "Sound Chaser", which he composed on the spot on his first rehearsal with the band), it is more guitar-dominated and less keyboard-heavy, but Moraz proved able to make very subtle contributions to the overall texture as well as to play impressive solos on the few occasions he was given the space.
    Calyx (Canterbury Scene) - http://www.calyx-canterbury.fr
    Legends In Their Own Lunchtime (blog) - https://canterburyscene.wordpress.com/
    My latest books : "Yes" (2017) - https://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/yes/ + "L'Ecole de Canterbury" (2016) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/lecoledecanterbury/
    Upcoming prog (& beyond) shows in France - http://www.bigbangmag.com/agenda.php
    Excerpts from interviews : https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...z9EvJjeuxQJ4x5

  6. #6
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    9,155
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    Moraz wasn't "hired" for Refugee. He was the main force behind that band, wrote most of their music and it was very, very keyboard-dominated. It probably reflects Moraz's deep musical leanings, where a lot of people tend to assume he was behind the move to a more jazz-fusion sound from "Tales" to "Relayer". In fact, that move was prompted by Howe, Squire and White, and Moraz just proved able, because he also had a jazz background, to be the perfect keyboard player for that particular dlrection.

    I think Moraz's contribution to "Relayer" is remarkable, and far from inaudible. Of course, because much of the album was already written by the time he joined (his main contribution as a composer was, precisely, the intro to "Sound Chaser", which he composed on the spot on his first rehearsal with the band), it is more guitar-dominated and less keyboard-heavy, but Moraz proved able to make very subtle contributions to the overall texture as well as to play impressive solos on the few occasions he was given the space.
    Very Well Stated.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    <snip> it is more guitar-dominated and less keyboard-heavy, but Moraz proved able to make very subtle contributions to the overall texture as well as to play impressive solos on the few occasions he was given the space.
    Maybe that's what I am picking up - definitely not as up front as Rick- currently re-listening to Relayer - I don't think I am 100% inaccurate ; but paying more attention, definitely they keys are there, just not as up front - right now the "kill or be killed" section of Gates is playing - I do hear the organ way in the background - Rick's or Tony's organ would have definitely be more upfront...

    btw, by "hired" I did not meant that he was hired for Refugee - I mean the Refugee album shows why Patrick was hired for Yes - and again - the Refugee album is amazing - a total tour de force...

    v

  8. #8
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    3,252
    I pity he didn't continue in YES !

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by vmartell View Post
    by "hired" I did not meant that he was hired for Refugee - I mean the Refugee album shows why Patrick was hired for Yes
    OK, thanks for the clarification.

    You're probably right in that he was seen as a guy who had the chops to replace Rick Wakeman, and actually on the Refugee album he sounds more like an ideal replacement for Wakeman than he turned out to be, that is, something quite different. Refugee had a lot of grand piano and Hammond, and on "Relayer" he instead plays a lot of Rhodes, Mellotron and Moog (granted, he also played a lot of Moog with Refugee !). Refugee was more of a classical/symphonic prog group than "Relayer"-era Yes turned out to be. But he was as good in that than he would have been in the vein of previous Yes albums.
    Calyx (Canterbury Scene) - http://www.calyx-canterbury.fr
    Legends In Their Own Lunchtime (blog) - https://canterburyscene.wordpress.com/
    My latest books : "Yes" (2017) - https://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/yes/ + "L'Ecole de Canterbury" (2016) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/lecoledecanterbury/
    Upcoming prog (& beyond) shows in France - http://www.bigbangmag.com/agenda.php
    Excerpts from interviews : https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...z9EvJjeuxQJ4x5

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Philadelphia Area
    Posts
    966
    When I bought the Rhino version of Relayer I played the studio run through of Gates and thought that Moraz wasnít present during this recording. I only played it once because Iím never into those bonus tracks much just out of curiosity to hear it once. Maybe someone can clarify it whether he was in the band during this. Seemed like Howe dominated the recording. Maybe I just donít remember it well enough.

    Other than that I canít think of Relayer with any other keyboard player than Patrick. He fit that recording perfectly. I couldnít stop playing it when it came out. And the KBFH show from Boston Gardens was heaven from the radio.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Well - completed 2 more hearings of Relayer - actively looking for Moraz as opposed to just listening to the songs as a whole - gotta say he is definitely there however I do have a couple of observations

    1.- Not sure is "not audible" was the best phrase - he is definitely there - just "too integrated" - if that makes sense

    2.- Think of the Moog in "AYAI" and "CTTE" - it is upfront ! In fact when the portamento makes the sound go in the lows, the room shakes - nothing like that in the solos in Gates and Soundchaser - I mean musically they are fantastic - is just they are just there, mostly fighting for space with the guitar imho, none of that wonderful presence and low end in Rick's moog - same for the organ, none of that in your face deep growl of Tony (or Rick for that matter) - I mean, I don't think is a question of style. Listen to the Refugee album - the mighty moog's low end, the growling hammond - they are there.

    3.- In sense, what I have been trying say is that mix does a disservice to Patrick.

    v
    Last edited by vmartell; 09-05-2018 at 11:42 PM.

  12. #12
    Member Paulrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    The Left Coast
    Posts
    1,168
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    ...but Moraz proved able to make very subtle contributions to the overall texture as well as to play impressive solos on the few occasions he was given the space.
    Over the years I've been listening to Yes I've come to the conclusion that most of the keyboard playing is just that: textural foundation with occasional openings for solos. That's a broad generalization, but it sort of works -- especially for the more vocal-oriented Yes music. When Anderson drops out and the others are jamming then the keyboards often have a more equal seat at the table (unless it's a keyboard feature, like "Madrigal".)
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  13. #13
    Love his keyboard solo during the second half of "To Be Over" with Howe's contrapuntal guitar playing alongside.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Sussex, England.
    Posts
    1,053
    Inaudible??

    Hopefully Moraz will be back with Yes for a Relayer tour!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    Inaudible??
    I think it was explained and expanded above - but I will repeat - maybe inaudible is not the right phrase but they are way less less prominent that either Rick's or Tonys' even Geoff - not to mention Rabin and Horn's Fairlight... they definitely can get lost in the mix...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    Hopefully Moraz will be back with Yes for a Relayer tour!
    That would be fantastic...

    v

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by vmartell View Post
    Well - completed 2 more hearings of Relayer - actively looking for Moraz as opposed to just listening to the songs as a whole - gotta say he is definitely there however I do have a couple of observations

    1.- Not sure is "not audible" was the best phrase - he is definitely there - just "too integrated" - if that makes sense

    2.- Think of the Moog in "AYAI" and "CTTE" - it is upfront ! In fact when the portamento makes the sound go in the lows, the room shakes - nothing like that in the solos in Gates and Soundchaser - I mean musically they are fantastic - is just they are just there, mostly fighting for space with the guitar imho, none of that wonderful presence and low end in Rick's moog - same for the organ, none of that in your face deep growl of Tony (or Rick for that matter) - I mean, I don't think is a question of style. Listen to the Refugee album - the mighty moog's low end, the growling hammond - they are there.

    3.- In sense, what I have been trying say is that mix does a disservice to Patrick.

    v
    Hello there! Yes, I agree you have a point. For years I was struggling to understand Patrick's distinct mark on this album, particularly on Gates of Delirium, and couldn't trace it. At least not in the effortless way I understand Wakeman's keyboards on other Yes records.

    Let me just say that I am referring to an original, vinyl copy and not any remasters. I believe Howe's guitars somehow overshadow all the other musicians, especially in the loud parts. Which is a good thing - and possibly a conscious decision. It creates the Delirium impression in a very convincing way.

    All I am saying is that I had to give specific attention to Moraz parts to understand his contribution to the result. And yes, he is low in the mix, but also his parts are very subtle, and perhaps easy to miss because of their subtlety. Nothing easily recognizable and fancy on his work in my opinion.

    But I wouldn't agree that the mix has done him a disservice. The final result is magnificent despite of - and perhaps exactly because of - the bizarre sonic decisions. And his play is an integral and indispensable part of it.

    I absolutely adore this record!

  17. #17
    Lucky Man
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Schenectady NY USA
    Posts
    543
    ....those overhead swooshes on Gates...

    ...or the sparkles, the...twinklies?...lol on To Be Over...

    Sometimes it wasn't so much notes as it was texture Patrick provided.

    Few are the more sumptuous earfeasts than Relayer.
    Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    but also his parts are very subtle, and perhaps easy to miss because of their subtlety. Nothing easily recognizable and fancy on his work in my opinion.
    Correct, he is more of a substance than flashy. And it's hard to be flashy when he's that busy building textures.
    Macht das ohr auf!

    COSMIC EYE RECORDS

  19. #19
    Member DoubleDrummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Mid-South
    Posts
    125
    RELAYER is a special album..................YES-unique.................and represents a turning point.
    Perhaps the original recording is good but not great -- I bought the Steve Wilson remix and it is improved but not an excellent recording (done in Squire's basement ?)
    I can hear Moraz's talent and contribution here -- I also saw that specific tour and I thought Moraz also brought much to the live show.
    In addition, it is my opinion that RELAYER is also the best provision of Alan White....................some tremendous drum talent on this recording (also some on TOPOGRAPHIC).

    I think Moraz is outstanding on this album and reflects an entirely different feel/component to YES.
    And don't forget the intro to Sound Chaser also has the assistance of White, which is very cool.

  20. #20
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Brussels
    Posts
    3,224
    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    Moraz wasn't "hired" for Refugee. He was the main force behind that band, wrote most of their music and it was very, very keyboard-dominated. It probably reflects Moraz's deep musical leanings, where a lot of people tend to assume he was behind the move to a more jazz-fusion sound from "Tales" to "Relayer". In fact, that move was prompted by Howe, Squire and White, and Moraz just proved able, because he also had a jazz background, to be the perfect keyboard player for that particular dlrection.

    I think Moraz's contribution to "Relayer" is remarkable, and far from inaudible. Of course, because much of the album was already written by the time he joined (his main contribution as a composer was, precisely, the intro to "Sound Chaser", which he composed on the spot on his first rehearsal with the band), it is more guitar-dominated and less keyboard-heavy, but Moraz proved able to make very subtle contributions to the overall texture as well as to play impressive solos on the few occasions he was given the space.
    Having read your book on Yes last Winter/Spring (we spoke about it in Soignies), I'm certainly not going to argue with you on this subject, but....

    I agree that if Moraz wasn't hired, it is however easy to see it that way, since basically it appears to be The Nice (all the way up to the Charisma label and possibly band manager) with a new KB player. I think that's what the OP meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    I pity he didn't continue in YES !
    I do too, though I wonder if Yes would've done Awaken in their next album.

    Though I didn't spend that much time reading the reasons of Moraz leaving in Aymeric's book (I really spend a lot of time reading Aymeric's amazing deciphering of Jon's obtuse poetry*, and trying to dig TFTO more than I did before), from memory, it appears that things were not that smooth between Moraz and some Yes members, but also that their manager did a lot to have him sacked, because Wakeman wanted back in the band (his solo career was not as fruitful in 76 as it was in 74), partly because he was also Rick's manager. So PM simply didn't have the weight that RW did

    However, maybe a slightly-lasting Moraz egacy was that Yes did record GFTO in Switzerland


    *: At first, I wasn't going to buy "another Yes book" (I'd read one and it was enough for me), but when my buddy (Aymeric, I introduced you to him in Soignies three years ago) told me that Aymeric spent much effort making sense out of Anderson's text, I directly went for it. If anything else, that's the main reason why it is indispensible
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  21. #21
    Jazzbo manquť Mister Triscuits's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Utopia
    Posts
    2,346
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    I agree that if Moraz wasn't hired, it is however easy to see it that way, since basically it appears to be The Nice (all the way up to the Charisma label and possibly band manager) with a new KB player.
    Indeed that's how it looked, but it's not like Jackson and Davison had still been together and were looking for a Keith Emerson replacement. It was Jackson alone who brought Moraz into the picture, inviting him to join Jackson Heights. Moraz countered with the idea for the trio, and Davison was brought in to form Refugee. After Moraz quit to join Yes, there were plans for Refugee to continue with Annette Peacock on keyboards. The whole thing fell apart when Davison left to join David Essex's band.

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,345
    I will never listen to Relayer the same way again. Thanks a lot.
    Prog's Not Dead

  23. #23
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    9,155
    Which book/author are we referring to. A PE Author? I may have missed something.

    Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
    What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it brings forth a sound...

  24. #24
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Brussels
    Posts
    3,224
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    Indeed that's how it looked, but it's not like Jackson and Davison had still been together and were looking for a Keith Emerson replacement. It was Jackson alone who brought Moraz into the picture, inviting him to join Jackson Heights. Moraz countered with the idea for the trio, and Davison was brought in to form Refugee. After Moraz quit to join Yes, there were plans for Refugee to continue with Annette Peacock on keyboards. The whole thing fell apart when Davison left to join David Essex's band.
    Thx for the precisions (not sure Aymeric mentioned that, since it was out of the scope of the Yes book)

    TBH, I never cared at all for JH (though the debut is ok, and Mike Giles - and Ian Wallace - played with them for an album)... I kind of (much) preferred Davison's Every Which Way
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Thx for the precisions (not sure Aymeric mentioned that, since it was out of the scope of the Yes book)
    Of course I did -refugee.jpg
    Calyx (Canterbury Scene) - http://www.calyx-canterbury.fr
    Legends In Their Own Lunchtime (blog) - https://canterburyscene.wordpress.com/
    My latest books : "Yes" (2017) - https://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/yes/ + "L'Ecole de Canterbury" (2016) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/lecoledecanterbury/
    Upcoming prog (& beyond) shows in France - http://www.bigbangmag.com/agenda.php
    Excerpts from interviews : https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...z9EvJjeuxQJ4x5

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •