So Phil toddled off and Mike and Tony re-invented their band for the umpteenth time. Ray was hired to do the singing and Calling All Stations came out. Not About Us might sound like its jumped out of a Don Henley album but its still a bloody good song. Theres lots more bgs on this album too because this is ............................ a bg Genesis album is it not? Yet it became the full stop in the Genesis story. What a shame.
I find it pretty unlistenable, I imagine the band regret making it.
Oh great, another CAS slag thread. There's at least a half dozen of these.
What a shame? Hardly. Best Genesis album since Duke. I'm out. Have fun denigrating! I'm off to listen to some classic old school Genesis like Dividing Line, There Must Be Some Other Way, Uncertain Weather, the title track, Not About Us, most of Alien Afternoon and the magnificent One Mans Fool, a song clearly ahead of its time considering the current climate.
Certainly better than any album put out by Yes, ELP, Tull, and any number of "prog" bands in the 1990s.
Last edited by DocProgger; 08-29-2018 at 12:08 PM.
Every year pull this album out at least once to see if my opinion will ever change on it. I guess that since Genesis is arguably my favorite band, I fantasize that someday I'll discover something that suddenly "clicks" for me on CAS where it never had before. So far, there has been nothing. The whole package just falls supremely flat for me. I don't even blame Ray Wilson as his singing is solid though, on the whole, somewhat bland (plus the songs in general are, imho, overly wordy). Ultimately, CAS really was a huge miss. There are flashes of previous Genesis glory to be found here and there, but clearly the chemistry they had enjoyed for so many years was finally disrupted by Phil's departure. I think that had Phil still been in the band, lots of this stuff would have been re-worked or perhaps not even used. If I'm honest, a part of me does NOT want this to remain the final Geneis album... but as Mick Jagger famously sang, "You can't always get what you want."
Last edited by Koreabruce; 08-29-2018 at 11:46 AM.
A lot. There are good songs. The title track, 'Alien Afternoon' (at least the second half), 'Uncertain Weather', 'There Must Be Some Other Way' and 'The Dividing Line'. But even with these, some strange decisions with regards to production and arrangement were made. What's with those early fades on some songs, like the title track? 'The Dividing Line' sounds like there's a lead solo line missing in the instrumental section. On a personal level I'm not keen on Banks' sound choices throughout...they sound quite 'cheap' and demo-like compared with his usual high standards.
'Not About Us' is the best of the singles. But it and 'Congo' (which I find weak) were not strong enough to make a commercial splash. Wilson himself said that he became aware early on that there wasn't a big hit single on the album. And that was a problem for where Genesis were at that point in time, where their 80s/90s albums had all had big hit singles.
The rest of the album is a big nothing, IMHO. As I said on another thread, they sound like Mike and the Mechanics rejects.
FWIW, I don't think it would have done much better had Collins still been in the band, because the backlash against him had started by then. All concerned had had a good run, for way longer than the average. At least the 2007 reunion tour restored their commercial reputation.
Last edited by JJ88; 08-29-2018 at 01:48 PM.
its not that bad but I can understand why it tanked and has a bad reputation it wasn't good enough. its hard to get past a huge member leaving like that they made it through Gabriel leaving cause they came out with trick of the tail which was a awesome album and of course they had the diamond in the rough of phil Collins to turn into a massive front man. could ray Wilson have become that who knows but the album feels a bit rushed and not all there. feel like if after hiring ray they had gone back in and worked a bit more at creating a real band atmosphere (I always wonder at them using two drummers as well maybe pick one and try to do the band jamming way they worked before).
I also think if they had decided to stick it out accepted that they would be continuing at a smaller scale than the heights of Collins they could have come up with the goods on a second album but they decided to throw in the towel instead.
A few thoughts:
1. Ray Wilson did an excellent job
2. Ray Wilson should have had more involvement in songwriting
3. Most of the songs are underdeveloped
4. Nick D'Virgilio should have been the drummer for the whole album
5. Despite points 1 & 2, how awesome could this have been if Kevin Gilbert had been involved?
6. I would have been very interested to hear a second album with Wilson aboard
Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally
I really do not believe more people don't like "One Man's Fool." It's a masterpiece in my opinion.
"Arf." -- Frank Zappa, "Beauty Knows No Pain" (live version)
Wilson got a few credits. But in interviews he has suggested a professional and personal detachment from them, which probably isn't surprising given the difference in background/age. (To give Banks credit, however, Wilson has said in a few interviews that he was the only one associated with the band who took trouble to see him after the break-up. I'm guessing this includes management?)
A second album might well have been better but it would have sold even less, IMHO. CAS' sales in the UK were quite good but it was a disaster in the US. The scheduled US tour didn't even happen.
Years back I watched a whole show on YouTube from their European tour (Poland?) and I'm afraid I wasn't impressed. Wilson's voice wasn't suited to the Collins-era hits...Banks and Rutherford should have realised that, I think, I can't blame Wilson for it. He sounded better on the few Gabriel-era songs he did, because their voices have a more similar 'grain' and range. But again by then, people expected to hear the 80s/90s hits.
1. AgreedOriginally Posted by Scott Bails
2. Agreed
3. Agreed
4. Agreed
5. Agreed
6. Agreed
I enjoy it as a one-off album by a new band, and try to judge it on its own merits. It has some good songs, some good playing, some pleasant singing. Many of the songs end too abruptly in fadeouts, which makes the whole album less pleasant to listen to. It has none of the characteristics that would make identifiable as an actual Genesis album aside from the brand name, and this is hardly the first band to trade on its name in an attempt to extend its commercial life.
If this had been released as by "Rutherford, Banks & Wilson," I think it would have an entirely different legacy.
Do you mean like Genesis featuring RWB..
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this always bugged me too. I think I read some press interviews where they were praising Wilson and saying it was kind of a return to more Gabriel style but then the live show they did less Gabriel material than pretty much any other tour(suppose if you do minute to minute maybe a similar amount as we can't dance and invisible touch but a lot of it was acoustic). they shoulda gone for it and done suppers ready or musical box in full something to really make a statement live.
The DVD on the rereleased/remastered version of the album contains everyone's pretty frank opinions of the album both the positive and negative.
I loved the album when it came out and still think it's far from the disaster often described. But it does also feel like a missed opportunity.
If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
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Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com
In reality the problems with the tour were largely caused by the album not being good enough. It was always going to be difficult touring arenas with a new singer and an album which wasn't exactly a blockbuster. Had the album been stronger and resonated with the public more, I think they could have probably shelved some of the hits and reinvented the band a bit.
Last edited by JJ88; 08-29-2018 at 12:20 PM.
I think at some point, even the most successful rock stars just lose the ability to convincingly sound current. Some like ACDC or Tom Petty just kept doing exactly what they were always doing and they had a big enough fan base it worked out for them. Others like the big prog bands had to change with the times.
Genesis and Yes succeeded masterfully in keeping their fingers on the pulse of the music world and sounding like innovators in the early 1980s (see the 90125/Asia thread).
But by the 1990s I think both bands were out of touch. They were all pushing 50 and just didn't get it anymore. They seemed to believe that "simple" and "catchy" were somehow linked to success. Yes made a nice but lightweight effort at a world-music album with the Ladder, while Genesis made CAS. CAS was not really forward looking, not really backward looking, and just ended up sounding trite.
FWIW I think CAS is better than- say- Open Your Eyes, which is an artistic disaster. High praise indeed!
Not intended to be 'a slag thread' Doc Progger. I bought the album on its release and liked it. I listened it all the way through again today and I still like it, though the early fade-outs that JJ88 noted are a little puzzling.
Am I correct in thinking the singer from Big Big Train was auditioned when Tony and Mike found they were two?
David Longden. Yes, he did audition. There's an interview with him floating 'round the Internet where he talks about the experience.
I think they chose the better candidate, but I like Longden, too.
Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally
I enjoy it as a one-off album by a new band, and try to judge it on its own merits. It has some good songs, some good playing, some pleasant singing. Many of the songs end too abruptly in fadeouts, which makes the whole album less pleasant to listen to. It has none of the characteristics that would make identifiable as an actual Genesis album aside from the brand name, and this is hardly the first band to trade on its name in an attempt to extend its commercial life.
If this had been released as by "Rutherford, Banks & Wilson," I think it would have an entirely different legacy.
A good album, no more no less. As many have mentioned, there are some good songs here. I agree that it seems a bit unfinished which considering the experience and name recognition, should not have happened. Banks has said that he didn't realize before the album how much PC was kind of the center that pulled MR and TB's music together. I really liked Congo, but its not a hit song. I always wished Chester Thompson played on this album and would have be real keen to hear what he would have done on the drum showcase on Dividing Line. I also think it should have been the opening track to make a statement.
The killer was the expectation that since they were Genesis, they could fill stadiums and large arenas. If they went for smaller arenas, rebuilt their reputation and done a second album, I think they would have been ok.
Good points. By the time CAS was released, fans of the early stuff had mostly moved on, fans of the pop hits had moved on to other hit makers, and the new musical landscape of the 90s had no place for Genesis.
It's not a bad album - just not a Genesis album. But I guess there are many who might suggest there were no real Genesis albums after "Wind And Wuthering". I on the other hand like their entire output ... with the exception of "Calling All Stations". I don't like it as a Genesis album ... but as a prog/pop album it's fine. I'd suggests it more along the lines of a Mike And The Mechanics album or Tony's project "Bankstatment" . I fully agree with the above comment from rdclark, the albums should have been called "Rutherford, Banks And Wilson" with one of those stickers on the cover reading "featuring x-Genesis members Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks". Wilson did not have the type of voice associated with Genesis. Through the many incarnations of YES they tried to replicate Jon Anderson as best as they could - had Genesis tried a similar tactic by looking for a singer with a voice somewhere between Collins and Gabriel it might have fared better. But even at that the songs themselves were as different from Genesis (any era) as Asia was from Crimson, ELP, and YES.
Well, it IS a Genesis album, just as much as Genesis to Revelation, Trespass, LLDOB, Trick, ATTWT, etc. All those albums had different Genesis lineups and different sounds, atmospheres, types of songs, some different lead singers etc, and they are all Genesis albums. Ant chose to leave the band, Peter chose to leave the band. Steve chose to leave the band. At the time of CAS, Phil had chosen to leave the band. People just have to deal with those facts.
Tony and Mike had every right to call the band Genesis, certainly as much as Howe, Squire and White had the right to call Drama a Yes album etc, and while the album is far from perfect with the fadeouts etc, as I said, imo it is the strongest Genesis album in terms of songs and sound since Duke. For all the Phil haters, it was a return to a darker, more "proggy" Genesis. Obviously it was going to be dominated by Tony and Mike, and in that sense the album also reminds me of ATTWT.
And I completely disagree re your Wilson comments. Wilson was exactly what you described, a singer with a voice btw those of Gabriel and Collins, and in fact many reviews described his huskier rawer delivery as being very reminiscent of Peter. I think he could sing both the heavier prog epics and the more pop Collins type tunes equally well.
And the songs I named in my earlier post were all strong and don't get their just due. If songs like Uncertain Weather, Dividing Line, or One Mans Fool were released on ATTWT or Duke, people would have a much more positive outlook on them.
In terms of success and the US concert tour cancellation, I think the band mgmt misunderstood and miscalculated the appeal of a Collins-less Genesis after that long a period of non-activity, and didn't expect the Collins era Genesis fans who got on the train in the 80s to completely ignore the album and tour. So yes, they made some bad business miscalculations, but the financial failure was primarily due to the Collins fans completely getting off the bus, not because the songs or music was subpar.
Add--I do agree that they should have had Chester and Daryl on the album and given Wilson more input to make it more of a band album.
Last edited by DocProgger; 08-29-2018 at 04:21 PM.
I like it, in spite of its flaws and in spite of all the factors that contributed to this line-up's demise. I like the fact that they tried something.
In addition to all that's been said, one of the reasons why it didn't work, IMHO, was the lack of soul and passion. Wilson has since suggested that he wasn't passionate about being in Genesis but couldn't resist the offer. Rutherford didn't seem to be really into it.
The concerts seemed to reinforce that. Ray Wilson did a fine job but it was difficult for him to replace Collins, not only because Collins was a star with a lot of charisma, but also because PC brought some warmth and soul to the band. Wilson brought a melancholic, dark vibe which resonated well with Banks' musical universe, but the overall feel was a bit cold. Nir Z was a very good drummer but Nick D'Virgilio might have added some expressivity to the band - which didn't really have the time to become a real band. Oh well. I still view this as a chapter in Genesis' history, and I wish they had tried to go a little further with this line-up.
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