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Thread: Why the music industry is killing the music..

  1. #376
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    I don't see what an advantage of LPs could be except for larger artwork and just liking the idea of a moving record or a record collection.
    Accurate Soundstage? Depth? Space between instruments?

  2. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Accurate Soundstage? Depth? Space between instruments?
    Nope.

  3. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    Nope.


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  4. #379
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    Nope.
    Wrong.

  5. #380
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    But bottom line: with most releases now offered in various formats and media, you can choose those you prefer or better fit your budget. I don't mind paying extra for high res masters...if they are true high res masters (like vinyl, CD and others, not all high res masters are created equally and a bad engineer can make music, irrespective of format, sound like shite).

    So I've come to try and look into releases if I can, before buying, to make sure, for example, that 24/192 is true 24/192, and not an upsample from 24/96, for example.
    Upsampling isn't necessarily all bad. If, for example, 24/44.1 multi-tracks are mixed and mastered to 24/88.2, it can still sound great. It'd be like pasting the same collage on 2 different size pieces of cardboard. On the smaller piece, all the cutouts will have more of a tendency to overlap and crowd each other out. On the larger piece, they have more room to spread out. The smaller piece of cardboard would represent mastering in 24/44.1. The larger piece, 24/88.2, giving the sound more room to open and expand.

    To add to what you're saying, most albums from the early to mid '80s were recorded in 16/44.1. However, most were still mixed and mastered to analog tape for vinyl and cassette production, so the vinyls still sound great. There were exceptions: Yes' Big Generator and Kansas' Power sound very much like the CD, with the added bonus of surface noise. (But those records may very well have been cut from the 16/44.1 digital master.) Deep Purple's Perfect Strangers and Uriah Heap's Abominog sound only marginally better than the CD. When The Enid reissued In The Region of Summer Stars in 1984, they did the polar opposite. RJG took the 8 track analog tape, re-mixed and mastered it to 16/44.1 digital. As a result, that particular record has poor sound quality.


    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    But back to the main point: people spend more for better quality clothes, better quality food, better quality cars, etc, etc, etc. Why should they not be expected to pay more for higher quality music (sonics,that is)?
    Except we're not actually paying for bits and bytes. We're paying for the music they represent. The songwriting, composition and arrangement. The studio time to make the actual recordings. The royalties paid to the copyright owners. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Adding more bits and bytes shouldn't add as much to the price as it does.

    Edit: The materials and labor required to transform the Nissan Juke to its equivalent Infinity model are far more tangible than simply adding more bits and bytes.

    BTW: there's a wide gap between what it costs ISPs to transfer bits and bytes, and what they charge users for the same. At least here in the US. In Europe and Asia, the actual costs and what they charge more closely align.
    Last edited by progmatist; 08-11-2019 at 04:13 PM.
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  6. #381
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Brexit will change all this.

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I don't listen to music on my phone, nor thru Alexa, and I've never owned a portable digital player like an ipod, so the Bandcamp streaming option has no appeal to me at all.
    I never said anything about streaming. I don't listen to music on my phone (I don't even own a cell phone), nor Alexa either and also don't own an ipod. I download the files and either listen on my stereo through my PS3, or burn a CD and listen to them in my car. And as others have pointed out, not acknowledging a release because it's not on a physical format, just seems silly. That's Skullhead type talk, for goodness sake.

    neil

  8. #383
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Lighten up. I used the term in the same way that Seinfeld used "Soup Nazi" or Drew Carey used the term "Safety Nazis." I don't recall there being an outrage around those uses.
    The only time I heard the expression was for vinyl n___

    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Brexit will change all this.
    How do you figure
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  9. #384
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Brexit will change all this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    How do you figure
    I was joking really, but maybe it will. I actually don't know much about how it might affect something like mailorder of CDs for example. I just know that some places are starting to plan for it, like Dominos Pizza in the UK stockpiling supplies that they get from the EU, and Marillion basically announcing that prices for the next Marillion Weekend in Holland will be higher, because they are expecting their expenses to be higher.

  10. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Upsampling isn't necessarily all bad. If, for example, 24/44.1 multi-tracks are mixed and mastered to 24/88.2, it can still sound great. It'd be like pasting the same collage on 2 different size pieces of cardboard. On the smaller piece, all the cutouts will have more of a tendency to overlap and crowd each other out. On the larger piece, they have more room to spread out. The smaller piece of cardboard would represent mastering in 24/44.1. The larger piece, 24/88.2, giving the sound more room to open and expand.
    Good point! Thanks for that! food for thought....

    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    To add to what you're saying, most albums from the early to mid '80s were recorded in 16/44.1. However, most were still mixed and mastered to analog tape for vinyl and cassette production, so the vinyls still sound great. There were exceptions: Yes' Big Generator and Kansas' Power sound very much like the CD, with the added bonus of surface noise. (But those records may very well have been cut from the 16/44.1 digital master.) Deep Purple's Perfect Strangers and Uriah Heap's Abominog sound only marginally better than the CD. When The Enid reissued In The Region of Summer Stars in 1984, they did the polar opposite. RJG took the 8 track analog tape, re-mixed and mastered it to 16/44.1 digital. As a result, that particular record has poor sound quality.
    Yup. The bottom line is: it doesn't matter what the medium is. If it's poorly mastered it's gonna sound like shite, no matter what the resolution or medium.


    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Except we're not actually paying for bits and bytes. We're paying for the music they represent. The songwriting, composition and arrangement. The studio time to make the actual recordings. The royalties paid to the copyright owners. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Adding more bits and bytes shouldn't add as much to the price as it does.
    I'm mixed on this. Yes, we're paying for the music, but we are also paying for the medium and the quality of that medium. I agree (and have said) that the delta between, say, different resolutions is excessive....but, also as I said, there are certain issues, like the bandwidth required to serve higher res files, which will be considerably larger. I do, however, agree that HDTracks charging a full $7 more for 24/192 over 24/96 is way too much. But while Bandcamp is a very good option for indie artists and smaller indie labels, they often do charge more for high res files than for CD quality. But instead of $7 or more, it's usually more like $4, which would be reasonable if I lived in the USA...but given the Canadian dollar and buy No through a Canadian high res online store, ProStudioMasters, $14 USD for a 24/96 album from Cuneiform is really about the same price as a 24/96 album on PSM.

    I think/hope that it makes sense that there should be some difference between CD quality and higher res, but that the difference is often higher than it ought to be...yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Edit: The materials and labor required to transform the Nissan Juke to its equivalent Infinity model are far more tangible than simply adding more bits and bytes.
    Sure. But when you start applying it to other things it can become fuzzier.

    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    BTW: there's a wide gap between what it costs ISPs to transfer bits and bytes, and what they charge users for the same. At least here in the US. In Europe and Asia, the actual costs and what they charge more closely align.
    That doesn't surprise me...North America is definitely more gouging. Canada is, at the moment at least, somewhere between the USA and Europe (not aware about Asia). So what would be good to see would be more reasonable deltas.

    Thanks for some actual hard facts to chew upon....
    Cheers!
    John
    John Kelman
    Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
    Freelance writer/photographer

  11. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Lighten up. I used the term in the same way that Seinfeld used "Soup Nazi" or Drew Carey used the term "Safety Nazis." I don't recall there being an outrage around those uses.
    Sorry. I'm not a particularly PC guy but I AM Jewish, and I'm today's climate, I'm quite a bit more sensitive than I was before 2016. That said, there is some truth that terms like Nazi, concentration camps, etc, are being used way more liberally than they once were...and that ends up ruining whatever comedic value that "Soup Nazi," which was indeed funny, once had.

    All I can say, and I don't want to get into a subject that's verboten here, is this: I'm not a particularly observant Jew, and haven't been for most of my adult life (hey, I'm married to an Irish Catholic, for whatever that's worth... ) ...but I've experienced more direct examples of real anti-semitism in the past few years than I have since I was a kid (where, even here, I was beaten up for being a "dirty Jew."

    I've never been so aware of my "Jewishness" since my teens...even though I'm non-observant, closer to agnostic than anything. But I'm still of Jewish descent, racially, and these days, that suddenly seems to matter. My wife had a hair dresser who, when she was told I was Jewish, actually said "oh! You must be very rich then!" Hard to believe....but more than ever before, this stuff actually happens. So forgive me for being a little over-sensitive, truly.

    And Ottawa - normally a very safe and non-discriminatory place for at least my adult life - has had more hate crimes than ever before, including swastikas being spray painted onto Jewish community centres, synagogues, etc, and Jewish cemeteries desecrated in ways that never happened (ok, very rarely) here in the past. And it's not just Jews; while it doesn't happen much here, I do know people in other cities (Canadian and American) who have actually been pulled over, just because they're of darker complexions and driving a nice car, by the police.

    Everything seems to be way more in your face these days, and the end result, I'm sorry to say as I've never been particularly sensitive about it, is , indeed, greater sensitivity to it, you know? I don't know your background, but maybe you can relate. If not, while no offence taken, perhaps some food for thought.

    So I hope you understand why I'm a little sensitive on the subject. I appreciate you didn't mean anything by its use, but just sayin' that these days, sadly, the comedic value is being replaced by real hatred/anti-semitism...and the truth is: you never know when it's the real deal or not.

    So no worries....but I do hope you understand why it's a more sensitive issue than it once was.

    Cheers!
    John
    Last edited by jkelman; 08-11-2019 at 10:29 PM.
    John Kelman
    Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
    Freelance writer/photographer

  12. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I don't listen to music on my phone, nor thru Alexa, and I've never owned a portable digital player like an ipod, so the Bandcamp streaming option has no appeal to me at all.
    Well, these days, if you've got a good home system, you can mirror it to some degree with higher end portable players, ranging from a few hundred bucks (my range) to some in the thousands of dollars. It means, in my case, that I can have my music in one format that I can use on every system in and out of the house, and for someone who listens to a LOT of music for obvious reasons, that's very nice to have. I have a whack of micro and cards, devoted to different genres, and can just swap them in and out of my player ... and bring them with me when I travel, so I can have a good chunk of my collection with me so, for example, when I cover Crimson in Montréal and Toronto next month, I can literally bring everything I have by the band (between CD quality and higher res files, that takes up most of a 256Gb card), so since I'll be writing on the road, I had access to pretty much everything I have at home (many of the box sets I have PDF files of the liners also). For a writer, that's a really great thing.

    Back in the iPod days, before I realized that compressed music was actually causing ear fatigue, I had four iPod classics, totalling about 1Tb. Now, I've got about 5TB worth of cards ranging from 200 to 400Gb, they all fit in a small hard shell case that fits in the palm of my hand, so between the cards, the player and my in ear monitors, I've a lot of capability when I'm away. I don't stream, other than streaming my own collection in my iTunes library (a little over 6Tb now), so no Spotify, Tidal, Deezee, etc, for reasons I've written about at length so won't bore folks again

    But being able to carry almost 5TB of music with me on the road? Beyond the professional stuff, it just means I have access to a large chunk of my collection, when I'm covering stuff but also on vacation. We'll be in Ireland visiting with Rio's Family next year for about 24 days, and being able to have so much music with me makes it very appealing!
    John Kelman
    Senior Contributor, All About Jazz since 2004
    Freelance writer/photographer

  13. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    Nope.



    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post


    Henry
    Please Henry, don’t encourage him.

  14. #389
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Yeah, for some reason a lot of European (and I think Canadian and of course several US) cities have a lot more in the way of music stores these days than NYC does. Amazon's takeover must have accelerated much more quickly here or something. Most book stores disappeared pretty quickly too.
    Rents are a problem for megalopolis like NY and Tokyo


    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I was joking really, but maybe it will. I actually don't know much about how it might affect something like mailorder of CDs for example. I just know that some places are starting to plan for it, like Dominos Pizza in the UK stockpiling supplies that they get from the EU, and Marillion basically announcing that prices for the next Marillion Weekend in Holland will be higher, because they are expecting their expenses to be higher.
    Not going to work, especially for perishable goods for pizza (I doubt they buy any ingredients from Italy anyways)... as for price hikes, don't sell the bear's skin before having killed it.

    What many British firms are (and will be) doing is setting or dislocating on the continent.
    Marillion is welcome to demand political asylum (it will just cost them to make better music ) in their flee away from BoJo The Clown's and Nigel Barrage's incredible stupidity. I mean, even the old hag Lizzie2 is now getting into the fight to try and oust him out of Downing Street

    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by yamishogun View Post
    Nope.


    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post


    Henry
    Please Henry, don’t encourage him.
    Well, he does have a point... Like depth and space between instruments are only possible on vinyl, just because the medium is 12" instead of 12 cm??
    Last edited by Trane; 12-12-2019 at 03:29 AM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  15. #390
    I've worked in the radio industry (in NYC) coming on 30 years. My employment pre-dated the Telecommunication Act of 1996 so I intimately know the before and after of what happened after consolidation kicked in. Clear Channel (now I Heart Radio which is a terrible name) took on massive debt to buy everything in sight right at the point where the Ponzi scheme was ready to plateau for good.

    The godfather of consolidation, Mel Karmazin, had already gone from one station (WXRK in NY) to two (also WYSP in Philly) to dozens. He was lucky enough to have one property that made creating that network a lucrative operation - Howard Stern. The latter was at the height of his popularity and that style of shock-jock radio, well before the changes in our culture brought on by the MeToo movement, was being imitated from coast to coast. Karmazin had the original. What he also did was hire program directors who consolidated what people heard - the proliferation of Classic Rock, Hits, Classic Hits (once called Oldies), News-Talk and especially Sports. Clear Channel came along, lobbied for the 1996 Act, and went to do Karmazin one better by owning hundreds of stations. Cut to the chase: The market dropped out because revenue couldn't match debt service.

    Downsizing gutted personnel to the bone. Local flavors of music radio adopted a centralized network approach. Playlists for stations across the country became carbon copies of a handful of songs spoonfed to them by the recording industry (which had consolidated as well). It's no wonder Rock as popular music pretty much died in the 1990s. Rock is a listening music which requires attention. R&B based pop music is confection that's easily digested and gives listeners the same sugary hit the next time they hear it - all of it manufactured to do exactly that from writing to placement on terrestrial radio. It all because one huge machine for pumping out sameness that was easy to produce and promote.

    The usefulness of radio to music discovery and enjoyment has never truly been replaced. Yes, streaming services serve a purpose and one can listen to what is popular right now on any of them, hearing a non-stop mix of today's greatest hits. Hell, I use Sunday's as my Prog discovery day on Spotify & Bandcamp by reading a feed of what's new on various music review sites. However, nothing has fully replaced the locality and convenience of turning on the radio and hearing your "friends" on your favorite station and hearing what's new.

    P.s. The creation of Classic Rock as a format turned a living genre into yet one more version of oldies.
    Last edited by Splicer; 08-12-2019 at 06:51 AM.
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  16. #391
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    Well, he does have a point... Like depth and space between instruments are only possible on vinyl, just because the medium is 12"" instead of 12 cm??
    Who said that it's a zero-sum game? CD tends to be better at "height," and vinyl tends to be better at "width" and "depth," in my experience.

  17. #392
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    ^ And by "depth" I mean the front of the soundstage to the rear of the soundstage, not the "Bottom End." CD has the advantage on that.

  18. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Well, he does have a point... Like depth and space between instruments are only possible on vinyl, just because the medium is 12"" instead of 12 cm??
    What point did he actually make though? All I see is him dismissing everything with a "Nope".

  19. #394
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I was joking really, but maybe it will. I actually don't know much about how it might affect something like mailorder of CDs for example. I just know that some places are starting to plan for it, like Dominos Pizza in the UK stockpiling supplies that they get from the EU, and Marillion basically announcing that prices for the next Marillion Weekend in Holland will be higher, because they are expecting their expenses to be higher.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Rents are a problem for megalopolis like NY and Tokyo




    Not going to work, especially for perishable goods for pizza (I doubt they buy any ingredients from Italy anyways)...
    Don't know about Italy, but according to this article from CNN they get 1/3 of their supplies from outside Britain:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/06/busin...cli/index.html

  20. #395
    Speaking about the change in radio over the years, I just found out that the most legendary Chicago DJ has stepped down, of her own accord. When I moved to Chicago in 1976, Terri Hemmert was already established as the overnight DJ there, and there she was until a month ago. She began in 1973, and spent 45 years (!!!!!) at WXRT. She will still do part-time work. I also should say that when I first began listening to her, before I met her, my internal pciture was of a msall blond woman- but Terri was gay and more a truck-driver kind. She was certainly the best and most intelligent DJ i have ever heard. 'XRT does exhibit all the changes we have discussed here.

    https://www.robertfeder.com/2019/06/...ay-shift-wxrt/
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  21. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Don't know about Italy, but according to this article from CNN they get 1/3 of their supplies from outside Britain:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/06/busin...cli/index.html
    Could be, but Donimos is in several EU countries, so there could be inroads to avoid those criminal importing tax rates BoJo would install ...
    TBH, the UK is really going in the wall with this: if they tax incoming stuff they'll kill their economy, and since the EU is not about to let them UK products inside the EU outside the Brexit deal - which is majorly advantageous to the "no-deal" deal...



    anyways, we're getting side-tracked and fonding with the PE no-politics policy
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  22. #397
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    The majority of my listening is done in my home office (NP: Bob Dylan -The Real Royal Albert Hall 1966 Concert) and I have purchased a decent amount of music from Bandcamp. They are downloaded in FLAC (for the office) and MP3 (for the idiot phone). I consider these legitimate albums but then again, I never got along with Skullhead.

    Mr Kelman, what music player do you use for those 256Gb cards?
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  23. #398
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    In order to hear this depth, separation and warmth of vinyl presumably I need a decent turntable, decent amp & speakers, and a good room to listen to it in? Most of my listening is in the office or car using an ipod.
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  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    In order to hear this depth, separation and warmth of vinyl presumably I need a decent turntable, decent amp & speakers, and a good room to listen to it in? Most of my listening is in the office or car using an ipod.
    Those speed bumps are HELL on proper tracking.....
    Steve F.

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  25. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Those speed bumps are HELL on proper tracking.....

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