John Surman appreciation?

[Homburg]

Anyone else dig the English saxophonist John Surman?

I've just been enjoying his work with Jack Bruce and Jon Hiseman. Also really like his playing with Mike Westbrook and SOS. Of his solo albums I particularly like Morning Glory.


johnsurman.com

[walt]

Dug his stuff in The Trio,the high energy band with bass player Barre Phillips and drummer Stu Martin,and his contributions to John McLaughlin's superb record Extrapolation.

Also liked Surman in the SOS trio, with Alan Skidmore and Mike Osborne.

Excellant player, but some of his projects were hit and miss for me.

[helicase]

I've got the two archival discs that came out on Cuneiform, Way Back When and Flashpoint NDR Jazz Workshop, which I highly enjoy. The Trio's not bad, either.

[Steve F.]

The band I saw in 2008 (?) with Surman, Drew Gress, John Abercrombie and Jack DeJohnette was a killer from beginning to end.

He's great on a lot of ECM albums including many of his own; I'm particularly fond of Barre Phillips "Mountainscapes", which has all of The Trio + a synthesist.

and I dig S.O.S. too and there will be a real treat for S.O.S. fans soon enough!

[mogrooves]

I'm not familiar with most of his work, but I dig:

Where Fortune Smiles
Extrapolation
How Many Clouds Can You See?
Way Back When
Westering Home
Morning Glory

[Trane]

Not a big fan of his ECM albums (from 77 onwards)... or FTM that SOS formation with Osborne and Skidmore, though it's got its moments (on Ogun records)

But most of the album before being on those two labels are quite fine... so until 73... (Mo names all of them, I believe)... you can also include his collabs with Canadian saxist John Warren, especially Tales Of The Algonquins (74)... Though The Brass Project (92, I believe) is one of my top 10 ECM album

However Steve's Cuneiform label has recently published his NDR workshop (CD + DVD) and it's probably the best thing to bear Surman's name

[per anporth]

I'd suggest you gave yourself the chance to have another listen to the ECM material, Trane - there is so much variety, so much quality - from fiery ensemble recordings such as Brewster's Rooster, through the beautiful duets with organist Howard Moody, & on to the solo recordings, such as Road to St Ives, Biography of the Rev Absalom Dawe, & his most recent, Saltash Bells (which I think is one of his very best).

Surman is possibly my favourite living musical artist (hence the moniker!)

[Steve F.]

I would agree that there's a lot of treasures by JS on ECM, and it isn't like I own them all.

But I just picked one up used last weekend by Surman with John Warren called "The Brass Project"; I almost didn't buy it because I wasn't sure it looked that interesting.

I've only played it twice, but it was deep and GREAT.

[JJ88]

I only have 'Road To St Ives', recommended on the old site some years back by per anporth. It's a beautiful record.

I also have 'Mountainscapes', again recommended by someone on the old site. That's a very different, but compelling album- there's some unearthly noises from the bass on one track on there!

[Trane]

I'd suggest you gave yourself the chance to have another listen to the ECM material, Trane - there is so much variety, so much quality - from fiery ensemble recordings such as Brewster's Rooster, through the beautiful duets with organist Howard Moody, & on to the solo recordings, such as Road to St Ives, Biography of the Rev Absalom Dawe, & his most recent, Saltash Bells (which I think is one of his very best).

Surman is possibly my favourite living musical artist (hence the moniker!)

Don't get me wrong, it's not John Surman himself , but more the ECM "sonic dogma/doctrine" (going to make a broad generalization, here but don't shoot, please >>> yyyyaaaawwwnnnn!!!) that I'm not crazy about... I did listen to a few of his ECM albums (including the afore-mentionned Brass Project...

[Reid]

He did a couple of fine ECM albums with Paul Bley. I like his early stuff too. I have the Dawn Anthology; SOS; Way Back When

[jkelman]

I'm a huge fan, something only cemented as I've been lucky enough, after interviewing John a couple years back, to run into him in Oslo, where he lives with his wife, singer Karin Krog, and just recently at Take Five Europe, where we were both participants. A funny, humble guy who proved himself a fantastic educator and mentor, I've been covering his material since I began writing for AAJ.

You can find a pile of CD reviews, including reissues of some of his earliest material, here.
You can read my interview, From Boy Choirs to Big Horns here.

Enjoy!
John

[jkelman]

Don't get me wrong, it's not John Surman himself , but more the ECM "sonic dogma/doctrine" (going to make a broad generalization, here but don't shoot, please >>> yyyyaaaawwwnnnn!!!) that I'm not crazy about... I did listen to a few of his ECM albums (including the afore-mentionned Brass Project...

There is no ECM "sonic dogma/doctrine" Trane; all you need do is look at recordings by Art Ensemble of Chicago, Trio Beyond (Sco, Larry Goldings and DeJohnette), Terje Rypdal (the Chasers records, as one example), Arild Andersen's Molde Concert, Dave Holland's quintet records from across the decades and, more recently, Chris Potter's leader debut to lay such suggestions to waste.

There is no dogma at ECM; only a commitment to making the music available with a kind of pristine clarity that was not heard in jazz (at least not in a big way) prior to the label's emergence.

What John does for ECM is what he wants to do; yes, there are projects he brings to the label that are rejected (The Rainbow Band Sessions being one), but he's been absolutely grateful to be connected to a label that allows him to do everything from the Brass Project to works with church organ, string groups and more. His ECM discography demonstrates the kind of stylistic breadth few others do. And while ECM didnt record The Trio per se, Barre Phillips' Mountainscapes is essentially one, just as Ralph Towner's Trios/Solos is, if you look at it, an Oregon record that could not be made for ECM under the name at the time because the group was contracted to Vanguard.

Sorry, but it rankles me when I hear these common myths about ECM. I've been fortunate enough to have interacted with many artists who record for the label, and with the label itself, so believe me when I tell you that such suggestions as "ECM "sonic dogma/doctrine" are as far from reality as can be.

Best,
John

[jake]

Also liked Surman in the SOS trio, with Alan Skidmore and Mike Osborne.

Now you're talking - absolutely stellar almost telepathic trio - probably the greatest UK jazz ensemble ever.

[Trane]

Way Back When

another excellent Cuneiform release

There is no ECM "sonic dogma/doctrine" Trane; all you need do is look at recordings by Art Ensemble of Chicago, Trio Beyond (Sco, Larry Goldings and DeJohnette), Terje Rypdal (the Chasers records, as one example), Arild Andersen's Molde Concert, Dave Holland's quintet records from across the decades and, more recently, Chris Potter's leader debut to lay such suggestions to waste.

There is no dogma at ECM; only a commitment to making the music available with a kind of pristine clarity that was not heard in jazz (at least not in a big way) prior to the label's emergence.

Sorry, but it rankles me when I hear these common myths about ECM. I've been fortunate enough to have interacted with many artists who record for the label, and with the label itself, so believe me when I tell you that such suggestions as "ECM "sonic dogma/doctrine" are as far from reality as can be.

Best,
John

Yeah, I knew I was going to get in trouble with you (and probably miore), but the fact is that 95% of ECM catalogue absolutely bores me (whether Tibbets, Metheny, Mantler, etc...)

My ECM top 10 albums are:
Chick Corea - Return To Forever
Mal Waldron - The Call
Terje Rypdal - Whenever I seem To Be So Far Away & What Comes After
Julian Priester & Pepo Mtoto - Love, Love
Bernie Maupin - The Jewel In The Lotus
Keith Jarrett - The Koln Concert
Azimuth - Departure
John Surman/John Warren - The Brass Project


I still have to explore : (after that I think, I'll have to give iot a rest)
Kenny Wheeler's Music For Large Ensemble (90) and Long Time Ago (98)
Miroslav Vitous's The Journey (82) and Universal Syncopations (03)
John Surman Stranger Than Fiction (93) and Adventure Playground (91)
The Music Improvisation Company 's ST album with Jamie Muir (70)
Globe Unity Improvisation's Compositions and Improvisations (79 & 77)
Jan Garbarek's Sart (71) Afric Pepperbird (72) and Places (77)
Steve Khun's Trance (74)
Dave Holland Quintet's Jumping In and Shades Of Time (83 & 84)
Holland/Phillips's Music For Two Basses (71)
Bill Connors - Of Mist And Meting (78)
Elton Dean - Boundaries (80)
Gary Burton Quintet w Eberhard Weber's Rong, Dream So Real and Passengers (74 to 76)

I'm also looking for recommendations in
Charles Lloyd's ECM and/or Watt discography
Art Ensemble Of Chicago's ECM catalogue

So as you can see, I'm not generalizing or casting asideECM

[spacefreak]

Huge fan of his Dawn albums with TRIO.

[mogrooves]

I'm not the biggest ECM fan but my top ECMs would probably be these, not really all that typical of the common perception of the ECM "sound/aesthetic":

Dave Holland ~ Conference of the Birds
Dave Liebman ~ Lookout Farm
George Adams ~ Sound Suggestions
Dewey Redman ~ The Struggle Continues
Bennie Maupin ~ The Jewel In The Lotus
Sam Rivers ~ Contrasts
Don Cherry & Ed Blackwell ~ El Corazon
Steve Kuhn ~ Trance
Jan Garbarek Quartet ~ Afric Pepperbird
Julian Priester ~ Love, Love
Eberhard Weber ~ The Colours of Chloe
Paul Bley ~ Open, To Love
Paul Bley ~ Garden Of Eden
Marilyn Crispell ~ Storyteller
Circle ~ Paris Concert
Corea/Holland/Altschul ~ A. R. C.
Marion Brown ~ Afternoon Of A Georgia Faun
Terje Rypdal ~ Whenever I Seem To Be Far Away
Kenny Wheeler ~ Gnu High
Kenny Wheeler ~ Double, Double You
Art Ensemble of Chicago ~ Urban Bushmen
Tim Berne ~ Snakeoil
Fly ~ Sky & Country
Mike Formanek ~ The Rub & Spare Change
Mike Formanek ~ Small Places

[walt]

Any lists of my fave ECMs in past threads always include:

Jimmy Giuffre 3-1961
Charlie Haden/Carla Bley-LMO-Ballad Of The Fallen
John Abercrombie-Timeless
Terje Rypdal-Odyssey
AMM III-It Had Been An Ordinary Enough Day In Pueblo,Colorado-(ECM/Japo)...


...and more,including some titles mentioned above.

[jkelman]

a
Yeah, I knew I was going to get in trouble with you (and probably miore), but the fact is that 95% of ECM catalogue absolutely bores me (whether Tibbets, Metheny, Mantler, etc...)

I've no issue with your not liking the label; that's up to taste, which is a subjective and very personal thing; how can I hold that against anyone? No, it was the generalization, using one of the myths about the label that is just flat-out incorrect.

I don't have an issue with your tastes (heck, we intersect on quite a lot of music, so how could I? ), only that your suggestion of an ECM dogma is the kind of thing that any kind of real scrutiny of the label would lay to waste.....

That said, of your need-to-hears? All worth hearing, but I'll give you my opinion on 'em, for what it's worth. Three asterisks means check it out NOW; two asterisks means something that still really deserves attention; one is something that has value in the label's body of work, but is not something I return to very often:

Kenny Wheeler's Music For Large Ensemble (90) *** and Long Time Ago (98) ** (great music, marred by - surprise! - poor recording, not done with Manfred; the piano sound is so bad that I thought it was a digital piano until a couple years ago when John Taylor said no, it was just a bad piano and a bad room)

Miroslav Vitous's The Journey (82) ** and Universal Syncopations (03) ** - more important to hear, if you've not, are three MV Group records with Surman, Jon Christensen, and on the first two, Kenny Kirkland and the last, John Taylor: First Meeting ***; Miroslav Vitous Group (not available on CD... yet) **; Journey's End ***
John Surman Stranger Than Fiction (93) *** and Adventure Playground (91) ***
The Music Improvisation Company 's ST album * with Jamie Muir (70) * (neither on CD); very early days, the label was still trying to figure out what it wanted to be, imo.
Globe Unity Improvisation's Compositions and Improvisations (79 & 77) (on JAPO, so technically not ECM) ***
Jan Garbarek's Sart (71) *** Afric Pepperbird (72) *** and Places (77) ** (a recent box, Dansere, collected the three records Garbarek made with Bobo Stenson - Sart, Witchi-Tai-To and Dansere. All essential imo, so ***)
Steve Khun's Trance (74) **
Dave Holland Quintet's Jumping In *** and Shades Of Time *** (83 & 84) - actually it's Seeds of Time
Holland/Phillips's Music For Two Basses (71) *
Bill Connors - Of Mist And Meting (78) ***
Elton Dean - Boundaries (80) (another JAPO) ***
Gary Burton Quintet w Eberhard Weber's Ring ***, Dream So Real ** and Passengers *** (74 to 76)

As for LLoyd, they are issuing a box set with all his records with Stenson - from Fish Out of Water through Canto, and that gets a big ***. After that, for me, I'd recommend Voices in the Night, Life Every Voice (both with Abercrombie, and the big reason why I recommend), Sangam (a terrific trio with Eric Harland and Zakir Hussain), WHich Way is East (final recordings of Billy Higgins, an intimate duo recording in Lloyd's home) and Rabo de Nube (the first and so far best with his new quartet with Jason Moran); also, the forthcoming duo record with Moran, Hagar's Story is superb. for me, Moran is always better working with someone else than as a leader; as great a player as he is, I've never warmed to his own records, but when I hear him with someone else, I love him.

As for AEoC? They're all good but for me, the two I go to most are Urban Bushmen and Nice Guys.

Hope this all helps!
John

[jkelman]

Huge fan of his Dawn albums with TRIO.

Which you can get in a very cheap box that also includes Where Fortunes Smile,a great record wth McLaughlin and others.

Arg, just checked, Glancing Backward is oop and selling for absurd prices at amazon uk (though you can download cheap). But if you ever see a reasonably priced one, grab it.

[Trane]

I've no issue with your not liking the label; that's up to taste, which is a subjective and very personal thing; how can I hold that against anyone? No, it was the generalization, using one of the myths about the label that is just flat-out incorrect.

I don't have an issue with your tastes (heck, we intersect on quite a lot of music, so how could I? ), only that your suggestion of an ECM dogma is the kind of thing that any kind of real scrutiny of the label would lay to waste.....

Yeah, I can see the use of the word dogma is an issue with you, and I'll withdraw it .... But this instantly recognizable ECM sound has been already discussed here (albeit in 2.0)... Of course, there are obvious exceptions (and some of my faves cited above are exceptions), but overall if doing a blind test, you'll be able to say whether this is an ECM product or not.... same goes with the artworks... a usual ECM album is instantly recognizable.

Hope this all helps!
John

Yes, and I'llget back to your answers when time permits to attack my ECM backlog

That's one very positive thing about 3.0, you don't have to worry about keeping a thread alive for further references

[jkelman]

But this instantly recognizable ECM sound has been already discussed here (albeit in 2.0)... Of course, there are obvious exceptions (and some of my faves cited above are exceptions), but overall if doing a blind test, you'll be able to say whether this is an ECM product or not

Often, yes, but not because of style, but because of the approach to recording - and I don't mean reverb or any such device; i just mean, and this especially applied in the '70s, that there was no other jazz label where the sound was so pristine and the layers so transparent; you could hear the decay of every note to its inevitable conclusion, and in the jazz world at the time, that was very rare.

My issue is with suggestions that (a) ECM had a "stock" reverb setting they applied to all their recordings (not true); or (b) that Manfred "ECM-izes artists - also not true; do they change through working with him? sometimes, yes, but that's because, unlike many producers, he's a truly active producer, one who gets down and dirty with performances, arrangements, track sequencing, mixing and more. There ain't many who do that, and it means that he is the added member of every group, making every duo a trio, every quartet a quintet, etc. As someone who is intimately involved in the process, it means he will have an impact, and for some artists, like Pat Metheny, it ultimately isn't for them (though he certainly benefited from it in the early stages of his career); but as often as folks cite how, for example, Marilyn Crispell was a more aggressive player before ECM and now she's not, my usual answer is: were she to have done one record and moved on and moved back to what she was doing, then sure, maybe; but she's been with the label for more than 15 years now, so surely there is something that appeals to her.

And, in case you didn't know, ECM doesn't do contracts, so artists are never bound by multi-record deals, so they can leave any time, again laying such claims to waste. Every record is a separate contract, largely done on a handshake. ECM, for all its successes, doesn't do things the way most labels do from a business perspective. The label truly is about the art, and this is not something that comes just from Manfred; it comes from everyone I've met working in both the US and in Munich. It's a very different way of running a record label, and it's not for everyone's tastes, to be sure, but you've got to at least admire what it has managed to accomplish, in the face of constantly changing industry landscapes over 40+ years.

As for the ECM backlog, do let me know what stuff appeals to you and what doesn't; always curious!
Best!
John