Thread: Movies - Take Two. Action!

  1. #3676
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    I’m not disagreeing with that point, just saying that they don’t need to all look like the Norse people because they aren’t even from earth.

    I’m assuming you were referring to Heimdall earlier, played by Idris Elba. Possibly the coolest man alive currently.
    You assume correctly.

    I think that's a real stretch. Beings/entities arising out of a specific culture looking like a completely different ethnic group, and one that they likely didn't even know existed?...That's a bridge too far for me. I mean no offense, but at the risk of coming up to the forbidden line/a third rail - Man always creates god(s) in his own image. Look at the most famous painting of Jesus. It's a northern European, not a Middle Eastern Semite. Likewise, the idea of the Norse having gods that don't all look like them is a flaw for me.

    Not to mention that it fundamentally changes the character from the comics. (And don't get me started on Nick Fury!)

  2. #3677
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycsteve View Post
    Perhaps it excludes women because the title is Twelve Angry MEN .
    I have nothing against diversity , it is nessasary for a civilized society , but the fact remains , in real life there are as many instantces of homogenized groups as diverse groups . Good movies reflect real life . Forcing diversity for its own sake , in an unwarranted scenerio , just provides one more obstacle to the suspension of belief often required in movie viewing.
    I get it. As in the remake of 12 Angry Men, there seemed to be more interests in creating tension among these groups rather than the story itself. At times, you almost had to force yourself to remember what it was really all about.
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  3. #3678
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    You assume correctly.

    I think that's a real stretch. Beings/entities arising out of a specific culture looking like a completely different ethnic group, and one that they likely didn't even know existed?...That's a bridge too far for me. I mean no offense, but at the risk of coming up to the forbidden line/a third rail - Man always creates god(s) in his own image. Look at the most famous painting of Jesus. It's a northern European, not a Middle Eastern Semite. Likewise, the idea of the Norse having gods that don't all look like them is a flaw for me.

    Not to mention that it fundamentally changes the character from the comics. (And don't get me started on Nick Fury!)
    I don't see how that's a stretch really. In the Thor movies, the Asgardians didn't arise out of the Norse culture. They already existed, and the Norse people just worshiped them as gods because of how powerful they were. And there aren't exactly a lot of paintings from way back then depicting Norse gods -- Heimdall in particular is one of the least fleshed out of their pantheon, despite his importance, due to large pieces of lore simply missing or lost over time.

    The problem is that you have to cast real people to play what are essentially aliens from another realm, so they're going to look like races from earth. Unless you CGI the entire cast of Asgardians to make them look "different" somehow, which would probably be a bad idea.

    The MCU movies are an adaptation of the comics, not a literal representation. So Nick Fury being played by Samuel L. Jackson is a choice they're free to make, because they're not beholden to the comics to that extent. Fury's race was never one of the main focal points of his character, so making him non-white doesn't really make him any less true to the source material (and I believe that in the Marvel Ultimates, Fury's appearance was actually based on Sam Jackson). Characters like Storm, Shang-Chi, or Black Panther, for example, are different -- changing them to be of another ethnic background wouldn't make a lot of sense.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, the Thor movies don't claim to be historically accurate. They take place in an alternate reality where, for example, the Nazi organization Hydra still exists in modern day in spite of the Axis powers losing WWII. They all require a lot of suspension of disbelief. Why couldn't Heimdall be black in that reality?

  4. #3679
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    They are the gods of the Norse, and therefore "Norse gods." While rooted in the comic books of the 1960s, they are taken directly from Norse religion, names, attributes and all.
    Yeah, ummm, not so much. They have names derived from Norse mythology, and most of them have the right X in the phrase "God of X". But the personalities are all wrong. In mythology, Thórr was a blundering bully who caused almost as much trouble has he solved. Odínn was a scheming bastard quite willing to kill his own children for his gain. He was Thórr's father, but neither father nor foster father of Loke: he was Loke's blood-brother, which is why Odínn put up with so much crap from him.

    I get that Marvel had to (a) fit it in with their comics mythology and (b) not offend Christian censors. I'm not complaining about the changes they made. Just pointing out, the Marvel Asgardians are not the Norse gods in any meaningful way.
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  5. #3680
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    I don't see how that's a stretch really. In the Thor movies, the Asgardians didn't arise out of the Norse culture. They already existed, and the Norse people just worshiped them as gods because of how powerful they were. And there aren't exactly a lot of paintings from way back then depicting Norse gods -- Heimdall in particular is one of the least fleshed out of their pantheon, despite his importance, due to large pieces of lore simply missing or lost over time.

    The problem is that you have to cast real people to play what are essentially aliens from another realm, so they're going to look like races from earth. Unless you CGI the entire cast of Asgardians to make them look "different" somehow, which would probably be a bad idea.

    The MCU movies are an adaptation of the comics, not a literal representation. So Nick Fury being played by Samuel L. Jackson is a choice they're free to make, because they're not beholden to the comics to that extent. Fury's race was never one of the main focal points of his character, so making him non-white doesn't really make him any less true to the source material (and I believe that in the Marvel Ultimates, Fury's appearance was actually based on Sam Jackson). Characters like Storm, Shang-Chi, or Black Panther, for example, are different -- changing them to be of another ethnic background wouldn't make a lot of sense.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, the Thor movies don't claim to be historically accurate. They take place in an alternate reality where, for example, the Nazi organization Hydra still exists in modern day in spite of the Axis powers losing WWII. They all require a lot of suspension of disbelief. Why couldn't Heimdall be black in that reality?
    I think you're looking at the MCU as if it existed in a vacuum, and I'm looking at it as being based on a "known." Black Heimdall is too much of a deviation from that "known" for me.

    Also, since much of the appeal for me is nostalgic, I would prefer the movies to hew close to the comics. Especially since the stories are lifted from comics plot lines.

  6. #3681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    Yeah, ummm, not so much. They have names derived from Norse mythology, and most of them have the right X in the phrase "God of X". But the personalities are all wrong. In mythology, Thórr was a blundering bully who caused almost as much trouble has he solved. Odínn was a scheming bastard quite willing to kill his own children for his gain. He was Thórr's father, but neither father nor foster father of Loke: he was Loke's blood-brother, which is why Odínn put up with so much crap from him.

    I get that Marvel had to (a) fit it in with their comics mythology and (b) not offend Christian censors. I'm not complaining about the changes they made. Just pointing out, the Marvel Asgardians are not the Norse gods in any meaningful way.
    Same names and attributions, Asgard, Rainbow Bridge, Yggdrasil, 9 worlds. Close enough for me. It's based on Norse Mythology. There's no real way to make a case for another source, even if all of the pieces don't fit. Ymmv.

  7. #3682
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I think you're looking at the MCU as if it existed in a vacuum, and I'm looking at it as being based on a "known." Black Heimdall is too much of a deviation from that "known" for me.

    Also, since much of the appeal for me is nostalgic, I would prefer the movies to hew close to the comics. Especially since the stories are lifted from comics plot lines.
    I'm not though. I said it's an adaptation, not a straight 1-to-1 translation from the comic pages to the screen. In some ways I'd also like them to be closer to the comic books, but at the same time I like being surprised when I go to the movies. So I'm actually okay with them deviating from the comics if it means the stories will be interesting or entertaining.

    Is Heimdall being black too much of a deviation from the comics? Or from actual Norse mythology? I mean, neither one is real. And the Thor movies (and comics) have always played fast and loose with the mythology, as Sturgeon's Lawyer described.

  8. #3683
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Same names and attributions, Asgard, Rainbow Bridge, Yggdrasil, 9 worlds. Close enough for me. It's based on Norse Mythology. There's no real way to make a case for another source, even if all of the pieces don't fit. Ymmv.
    To make a case for another source? I'm not sure I follow. That's not what Sturgeon's Lawyer was doing at all, but rather pointing out that the Thor movies/comics were based on Norse mythology but have never adhered very closely to it in terms of structure.

  9. #3684
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    ^ Oh, I understand that. I was just pointing out why we disagree, as well as voicing a personal preference.

  10. #3685
    Quote Originally Posted by nycsteve View Post
    Perhaps it excludes women because the title is Twelve Angry MEN .
    I have nothing against diversity , it is nessasary for a civilized society , but the fact remains , in real life there are as many instantces of homogenized groups as diverse groups . Good movies reflect real life . Forcing diversity for its own sake , in an unwarranted scenerio , just provides one more obstacle to the suspension of belief often required in movie viewing.
    I guess back then the notion of a jury of only men was considered normal. So it's all about taking it in context.

    If another remake were to be made today, I could see the issue of gender casting being problematic for some people...

  11. #3686
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycsteve View Post
    Perhaps it excludes women because the title is Twelve Angry MEN .
    I know but how difficult would it have been to change the title to Twelve Angry People, use the same general play, and include women?

    I have nothing against diversity , it is nessasary for a civilized society , but the fact remains , in real life there are as many instantces of homogenized groups as diverse groups . Good movies reflect real life . Forcing diversity for its own sake , in an unwarranted scenerio , just provides one more obstacle to the suspension of belief often required in movie viewing.
    Yep. I agree. Ross dating Aisha Tyler in Friends, Doug having an African-American best friend in King of Queens, or Daniel Kaluuya and Allison Williams being a couple in Get Out all seemed perfectly natural. But just as often, the casting comes off to me as a reaction to the criticism toward Hollywood and its lack of diversity.
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  12. #3687
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    I agree if you're going to do a remake, which 12 Angry Men didn't need one to begin with, you could have just called it Twelve. I would think with all the social media around, etc. the word would get out--what word doesn't these days? A woman's perspective on the jury would have been an interesting change.

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  13. #3688
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    To kick this off...

    What movie favorites do you all have that you never, ever tire of watching?
    Here's a few for now, no particular order.


    LA Confidential
    Matrix
    The Untouchables
    Run Lola, Run
    Godfather 1 and 2
    Alien
    Aliens
    Blade Runner
    A Few Good Men
    The Time Machine (1960 version, not the piece of crap 2002 version)
    The Verdict
    Groundhog Day
    Lord of the Rings trilogy
    The Shinning
    The Holy Grail
    Young Frankenstein
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  14. #3689
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    The Shinning
    Was that the Tonya Harding biopic?










  15. #3690
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Here's a few for now, no particular order.


    LA Confidential
    Matrix
    The Untouchables
    Run Lola, Run
    Godfather 1 and 2
    Alien
    Aliens
    Blade Runner
    A Few Good Men
    The Time Machine (1960 version, not the piece of crap 2002 version)
    The Verdict
    Groundhog Day
    Lord of the Rings trilogy
    The Shinning
    The Holy Grail
    Young Frankenstein
    I have all of those except for, Run Lola Run. Too many to mention but I watch, On The Waterfront and, A Man For All Seasons, quite often.
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  16. #3691
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Here's a few for now, no particular order.


    LA Confidential
    Matrix
    The Untouchables
    Run Lola, Run
    Godfather 1 and 2
    Alien
    Aliens
    Blade Runner
    A Few Good Men
    The Time Machine (1960 version, not the piece of crap 2002 version)
    The Verdict
    Groundhog Day
    Lord of the Rings trilogy
    The Shinning
    The Holy Grail
    Young Frankenstein
    Some solid choices there, I've seen every one of those! Nice to see someone cite The Verdict.
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  17. #3692
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Was that the Tonya Harding biopic?









    Nah, he means this:



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    Happy with what I have to be happy with.

  18. #3693
    Member hippypants's Avatar
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    Simon Moon: I've seen them all too, but never understood why Run Lola, Run was considered special. I don't care a lot for A Few Good Men either (ok for once, I prefer Cruise in action flicks).

  19. #3694
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    Was that the Tonya Harding biopic?
    Can this be the swan song? The final elbow?

  20. #3695
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    Thief (1981)

    Re watched this gem on Amazon Prime last night.

    Although released in 81, Thief feels like a 70s character driven crime drama.

    This was also director Michael Manns first (and best) movie imo.

    The look was fresh, before it got old with MTV and Miami Vice.

    James Caan was great here also, arguably his best role.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  21. #3696
    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    Thief (1981)

    Re watched this gem on Amazon Prime last night.

    Although released in 81, Thief feels like a 70s character driven crime drama.

    This was also director Michael Manns first (and best) movie imo.

    The look was fresh, before it got old with MTV and Miami Vice.

    James Caan was great here also, arguably his best role.
    This is one of my faves and a regular watch for me.

    However, when I watched the film in my teens and beyond for a long time I thought Frank was the epitome of cool (indeed a career best performance from Caan here), but as I got older I came to realise that the character of Frank is basically an a**hole.

    That's not to take away anything from the movie or the actor, maybe its just about how you see things as you get older.
    I only clicked on it because I thought it was going to be something more interesting...

  22. #3697
    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    Some solid choices there, I've seen every one of those! Nice to see someone cite The Verdict.
    Agree with The Verdict, another regular watch for me. Possibly my fave Lumet but with Serpico, Prince And The City and 12 Angry Men its a difficult choice.

    Some of the best screen acting you will ever see.
    I only clicked on it because I thought it was going to be something more interesting...

  23. #3698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Mail View Post
    This is one of my faves and a regular watch for me.

    However, when I watched the film in my teens and beyond for a long time I thought Frank was the epitome of cool (indeed a career best performance from Caan here), but as I got older I came to realise that the character of Frank is basically an a**hole.

    That's not to take away anything from the movie or the actor, maybe its just about how you see things as you get older.
    He was a sociopathic criminal, like Sonny Corleone.

    Apparently there's alonger uncut version of Thief that I must see!
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  24. #3699
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    Thief (1981)

    Re watched this gem on Amazon Prime last night.

    Although released in 81, Thief feels like a 70s character driven crime drama.

    This was also director Michael Manns first (and best) movie imo.

    The look was fresh, before it got old with MTV and Miami Vice.

    James Caan was great here also, arguably his best role.
    I caught part of this on broadcast TV the other night. Music is by Tangerine Dream. I have the soundtrack album.
    Can this be the swan song? The final elbow?

  25. #3700
    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    He was a sociopathic criminal, like Sonny Corleone.

    Apparently there's alonger uncut version of Thief that I must see!
    Don't hold your breath. The 'longer' version contains only one deleted scene which is...nice, though not exactly essential. I think there may also be a few tweaks to some of the dialogue and a few editing changes here and there, but its nothing to get excited about.
    I only clicked on it because I thought it was going to be something more interesting...

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