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Thread: The Vinyl Thread

  1. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Not really. (I knew someone would state this.)

    You don't need amplification. You can hear it up close without it.
    Exactly. And to me, there is something innately romantic about the idea of music being stored in a vinyl platter.

  2. #277
    We can have arguments if it is for the first time, or if it is for the first hundred of times. We've listened to this all over again.

    I'll be buying vinyl until I am buried in my vinyl coffin and RC will be buying CDs until he gets in his whatever one. So this is a vinyl thread. It's not a "vinyl is shite and you're retarded for buying it" thread.

    And let me add "objectively retarded".

  3. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddhabreath View Post
    Why not? I think not only can it recreate it, it can better it.
    Theoretically, yes. In practice, harder than one would think.

    Good brick wall filters, needed in 16/44.1, are expensive and hard to get right. Most of them cause artifacts in the audio band. Especially those in universal players, and inexpensive CD players. Good clocks are expensive. Bad ones cause artifacts in the audio band. Also, poor shielding, and poor power supplies are detrimental.

    Not until you get to 24/192, or DSD 128, does digital beat vinyl, in my opinion.

    The main reason, I believe, has to do with the human auditory system's ability to detect interaural time differences as low as 7 microseconds. This is one of our evolved survival mechanisms that allows us to detect very small differences in where the sound of a possible threat is in space (ahead of behind us, to the right or left, above us, etc). 7 microseconds difference in ITD is typically in the literature, but 10 microseconds is often referred to, also. This ability translates to the audio cues that allow us to hear soundstage width and depth, distance from the soundstage, placement of instruments within the soundstage, etc.

    At 44.1 a sample is taken every 22.7 microseconds, which is not enough resolution, in time, to accommodate our 7 microsecond ITD capabilities. 192 is at 5.2 microseconds.

    As long as I've been listening to CD's, the one thing that always stuck out to me, was the lack of soundstage depth and width, and the seemingly 2 dimensional images of musicians within that soundstage. As soon as I started downloading hi-res files, did I start hearing the soundstage and image quality I heard on vinyl.

    Let me add, that almost all of these improvements are much less noticeable on modern rock, pop, country, hip hop recordings, where there is so much: studio manipulation, compression, noise gating, autotune, digital delay, etc, where musicians are almost never playing at the same time, in the same space. There is no soundstage to record under these circumstances (or it's buried under so much studio effects) , therefore, there is none to be heard.

    But on jazz, classical, or folk recordings, where the musicians are all playing at the same time, in the same acoustic space, those soundstage and imaging differences become, in my opinion, pretty obvious.
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  4. #279
    Orange Tick Squasher Buddhabreath's Avatar
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    OK I get it. I did not mean to beat a dead horse. I got the impression from recent posts that it was an open discussion.

    [Exit stage left to your great relief and applause]

    Well I gave it my best shot Mr. Carlberg although I am not at your level of (or Simon's) erudition
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  5. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddhabreath View Post
    OK I get it. I did not mean to beat a dead horse. I got the impression from recent posts that it was an open discussion.

    [Exit stage left to your great relief and applause]

    Well I gave it my best shot Mr. Carlberg although I am not at your level of (or Simon's) erudition
    No, if you are not aware of the previous controversy it's pretty normal to assume that this is a regular discussion. I've made the same error. But the identical arguments have been made so many times before that it verges autism-territory.

    I'll buy vinyl forever - and I will never claim that I'm right.

  6. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    There's nothing more "natural" or "human" or organic about encoding sound waves in concentric grooves on a polyvinyl chloride platter, versus encoding those same signals in 1s and 0s. Both are entirely artificial means of storage. The only natural means of music reproduction would be to hire a band.

    That argument carries no water.
    One is physical and the other is digital. There couldn't be a greater difference.

    (Warm) water still being carried.
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  7. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    There's nothing more "natural" or "human" or organic about encoding sound waves in concentric grooves on a polyvinyl chloride platter, versus encoding those same signals in 1s and 0s. Both are entirely artificial means of storage. The only natural means of music reproduction would be to hire a band.
    Well I agree with you there. Both means are artificial.

    And for the record (pun kinda intended ), I collect CDs too. Vinyl LPs by their nature have a tangible aspect that CDs and MP3s don't, but they aren't portable like the latter are. I enjoy that tangibility, when I'm at home in the afternoon or evening and can put on a record and watch it spin around while I hear the music (maybe even with an adult beverage). Some of the colored LPs are really pretty to look at too.

  8. #283
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    [Heavy sigh.] I won't be drawn into debating settled science.
    good
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  9. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    All valid reasons for preferring LPs. Unlike ronmac.
    You clearly have no sense of humor. No wonder people block you.

    Plus, I think I was pretty clear that I preferred CDs for their convenience. But you can be the stick in the mud if you want to.
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  10. #285
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  11. #286
    Bait taken.
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  12. #287
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Theoretically, yes. In practice, harder than one would think.

    Good brick wall filters, needed in 16/44.1, are expensive and hard to get right. Most of them cause artifacts in the audio band. Especially those in universal players, and inexpensive CD players. Good clocks are expensive. Bad ones cause artifacts in the audio band. Also, poor shielding, and poor power supplies are detrimental.

    Not until you get to 24/192, or DSD 128, does digital beat vinyl, in my opinion.

    The main reason, I believe, has to do with the human auditory system's ability to detect interaural time differences as low as 7 microseconds. This is one of our evolved survival mechanisms that allows us to detect very small differences in where the sound of a possible threat is in space (ahead of behind us, to the right or left, above us, etc). 7 microseconds difference in ITD is typically in the literature, but 10 microseconds is often referred to, also. This ability translates to the audio cues that allow us to hear soundstage width and depth, distance from the soundstage, placement of instruments within the soundstage, etc.

    At 44.1 a sample is taken every 22.7 microseconds, which is not enough resolution, in time, to accommodate our 7 microsecond ITD capabilities. 192 is at 5.2 microseconds.

    As long as I've been listening to CD's, the one thing that always stuck out to me, was the lack of soundstage depth and width, and the seemingly 2 dimensional images of musicians within that soundstage. As soon as I started downloading hi-res files, did I start hearing the soundstage and image quality I heard on vinyl.

    Let me add, that almost all of these improvements are much less noticeable on modern rock, pop, country, hip hop recordings, where there is so much: studio manipulation, compression, noise gating, autotune, digital delay, etc, where musicians are almost never playing at the same time, in the same space. There is no soundstage to record under these circumstances (or it's buried under so much studio effects) , therefore, there is none to be heard.

    But on jazz, classical, or folk recordings, where the musicians are all playing at the same time, in the same acoustic space, those soundstage and imaging differences become, in my opinion, pretty obvious.
    And this is the point many seem to miss. (No names, please!) Vinyl is better than digital (CDs esp.) at some things, and digital is better than vinyl at other things. It is up to the listener to decide which factors are the most important for them, and choose accordingly. And it's OK to love both.
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  13. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    Well I agree with you there. Both means are artificial.

    And for the record (pun kinda intended ), I collect CDs too. Vinyl LPs by their nature have a tangible aspect that CDs and MP3s don't, but they aren't portable like the latter are. I enjoy that tangibility, when I'm at home in the afternoon or evening and can put on a record and watch it spin around while I hear the music (maybe even with an adult beverage). Some of the colored LPs are really pretty to look at too.
    Aside the technical merits and flaws of both supports (though I own slightly higher end hi-fi, I ultimately don't really give a damn about the minute differences which are often inaudible unless paying closely attention), portability is my main issue... Vinyls are restricted to the proximity of your tt (and maybe the balconny just outside the room it's situated), the CDs can be transported (and listened to) almost everywhere, including in less than ideal conditions environements, and that's what counts most for me. It's also about the convenience of the system, vinyl needing to much care compared to the CDs, but also time restrictions like below (for ex)
    Not practical to interupt love-making sessions to filp the vinyl (your latex could have time to deflate ) every 15 minutes, when you can have CD-r compilations or classical CDs running up to 80 minutes, that can be restarted instantly without even decoupling by keeping the remote control at hand's reach.

    User friendliness rules, and vinyls loses heavily in almost every aspects of that essential criteria.

    Subjectivity issues and nostalgia (I'm not particuliarly prone to it, despite my 60/70's musical inclination) give vinyl an edge that the plastic casings around the CD worsens the gap when approaching the (smaller) storage shelves.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  14. #289
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    If it's a matter of convenience, my entire CD collection ripped to FLAC, then stored on a 128GB Micro SD card is extremely convenient. As is my vinyl collection recorded in 24/96 digital, then encoded to FLAC. If my house burns down, I don't have to grab anything. Everything is backed up to portable hard drives elsewhere.
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  15. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    And this is the point many seem to miss. (No names, please!) Vinyl is better than digital (CDs esp.) at some things, and digital is better than vinyl at other things. It is up to the listener to decide which factors are the most important for them, and choose accordingly. And it's OK to love both.


    When it comes to vinyl, I like to suggest in the debate that it "sounds different". Now for some who only worship the digital gods of downloads, streams, wav, flac and mp3s, that means horrible sounding. And for the worshipers of the goddess of vinyl, they feel digital is a sacrilege to the purity of music.
    Admittedly, some older vinyl recordings from the 60's and 70's do sound like they were recorded in tin can, but at the same time many of those same recordings that have been digitized still sound like crap, only clearer and brighter. I like a lot of the classic stuff on vinyl because of the technology they used, although compared to today is prehistoric, but to me it adds a flavor from the time era I don't hear on the updated cd's.
    I have a lot of my original cds and also their vinyl counterparts, and depending on my mood I will listen to either version and enjoy them.

    We recently upgraded our Pink Floyd collection, which we have on cds, but picked up the remastered versions of DSOTM, Animals, Wish You Were Here and The Wall, all which were remastered under the Pink Floyd Records version, and I believe at Abbey Road Studios(not sure). It's a absolute joy to hear them on vinyl, and the funny part is they were remastered from the Hi Rez files taken from the original master tapes. While we were waiting for our order of Animals to arrive, I pulled out the cd and listened and that also sounds great. But the vinyl sounds a bit different, and when I say different, I think the entire signal path of the source being vinyl, being played by a diamond stylus through a magnetic cartridge and on to a preamp, has to make the music sound different due to the process it takes to get out the speaker and in to our ears. Same with cds, they have a disc, laser, disc player a/d converter, etc.
    So cd's and vinyl will sound different from each other.
    As ronmac said, it's ok to love both and I do.
    I only have issues with this debate when one side or the other says their way is better, and that someone who believes different than their opinion is wrong..
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  16. #291
    ^^ Some interesting points regarding the sound qualities of those formats. Vinyl sounds different from digital typically, but I don't believe that vinyl sounds "better" necessarily. It's the differences in the sonic experience that make me continue listening to and collecting LPs.

  17. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    If it's a matter of convenience, my entire CD collection ripped to FLAC, then stored on a 128GB Micro SD card is extremely convenient. As is my vinyl collection recorded in 24/96 digital, then encoded to FLAC. If my house burns down, I don't have to grab anything. Everything is backed up to portable hard drives elsewhere.
    Is your SD card big enough to roll a joint on.
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  18. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    ^^ Some interesting points regarding the sound qualities of those formats. Vinyl sounds different from digital typically, but I don't believe that vinyl sounds "better" necessarily. It's the differences in the sonic experience that make me continue listening to and collecting LPs.
    Listening and collecting vinyl has a generational factor. I started buying and listening to vinyl in the 60s and never stopped. The thrill I get from getting a new record and put it on the turntable remains intact after all these years. The other day I listened back to back to Kate Bush's Never For Ever on CD first edition EMI and a French EMI vinyl pressing and the vinyl sounds warmer to my ears.

  19. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    Listening and collecting vinyl has a generational factor. I started buying and listening to vinyl in the 60s and never stopped. The thrill I get from getting a new record and put it on the turntable remains intact after all these years. The other day I listened back to back to Kate Bush's Never For Ever on CD first edition EMI and a French EMI vinyl pressing and the vinyl sounds warmer to my ears.
    Clearly, you're deluded, because science tells us otherwise. </sarcasm>
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  20. #295
    The vinyl I listened the most too recently was The Roches s/t German 97 WB vinyl revival reissue. Lots of high end on this record with the 3 sisters going sometimes quite high as on Quitting Time, but absolutely clear and balanced, Fripp had produced the record and the original analogue master for sure was already very good. I will look out for more of these WB 97 reissues.
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  21. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Actually, it's not.
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  22. #297
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Lets change this thread to 'Tube Gear versus Solid State' and see if we end up in the same camps.
    And then call in the shrink.

    Actually https://lyngdorf.com/ makes great digital amps, Audio Research makes great all tube amps, and McIntosh does both Tube and Solid State.

    Think of this thread as the The New Prog Beer Snob Thread...

  23. #298
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Lets change this thread to 'Tube Gear versus Solid State' and see if we end up in the same camps.
    And then call in the shrink.

    Actually https://lyngdorf.com/ makes great digital amps, Audio Research makes great all tube amps, and McIntosh does both Tube and Solid State.

    Think of this thread as the The New Prog Beer Snob Thread...
    I could be wrong, but I think this thread was started by a vinyl aficionado to talk about specific vinyl acquisitions, but The Inquisition found it, and now it's morphing into yet another attempt to enforce doctrine. There's plenty of threads like that out there already.
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  24. #299
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I could be wrong, but I think this thread was started by a vinyl aficionado to talk about specific vinyl acquisitions, but The Inquisition found it, and now it's morphing into yet another attempt to enforce doctrine.
    My apologies. I backed out of this thread once before. I'll now do it again.

    I do not appreciate being misrepresented as The Inquisition, or somehow against record collecting.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 05-31-2019 at 01:09 PM.

  25. #300
    Member Top Cat's Avatar
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    Thanks to the PFM thread on the main forum, I just bought a NM viny copy of Cook...don't have it on cd or vinyl, so looking forward to getting it next week.

    Also Steve Hackett is signing the pre-orders of the new Abbey Road half speed remastered vinyl re-re-re- release of Genesis' Seconds Out when purchased from his site. But he's on tour and only stopping by the studio on June 10th.
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