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  1. #51
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    I just finished the most recent season of Drive To Survive on Netflix. I am not a person who follows Formula 1 that close, but I have really enjoyed the series. For those of you more familiar with F-1 I have a few questions that after watching the series I am not clear on:

    What is the difference between the Red Bull team and the Toro Rosso team? One appears to be considered a higher level than the other one, but that is never really explained. Pierre Gasley gets cut from the Red Bull team, but then ends up on Toro Rosso and finishes the season ahead of one of the Red Bull driers in the standings. How does that all work? Are they the same team just with different names or are they different teams?
    Ian already answered this question, for the most part, but left out three important aspects:

    1. Toro Rosso (who is known as AlphaTauri for 2020) is a completely different team but owned by the same parent company, Red Bull GmbH, the beverage company headquartered in Austria. They also own Red Bull Racing. It's sort of like the difference between ABC & FX, both owned by Disney Media. BTW, "toro rosso" is simply Italian for "red bull".

    2. The reason that Gasly finished the season ahead of Alexander Albon, who replaced him at Red Bull, is because Red Bull is the better team and Gasly usually finished ahead of Albon for the first 12 races. Albon was in the Red Bull for only 9 races. Gasly's average finish in a RB was around 7.5; Albon's average was 6.2.
    Now, what will really blow your mind is that the other driver at TR, Dany Kvyat , was first signed to TR in 2014, then went to RB for '15 & '16, was demoted to TR mid season in '16 (replaced by Verstappen), stayed there for '17 until he was replaced by Gasly, and was then let go. He was a development driver for Ferrari for '18 but then re-signed by TR for '19. I'm of the opinion Kvyat isn't that good, even tho he often outperformed Albon in '19. The difference is that Kvyat couldn't handle the pressure at RB. Nor could Gasly, for that matter. Albon stepped in and has outperformed them both.

    3. Red Bull has the best Technical Director in F1: Adrian Newey.

    Mercedes appears to own young drivers who are on other teams? The kid who drives for Williams (name escapes me) is actually managed and owned by Mercedes? There was another driver on the show that seemed to be in the same situation. How does that work? I have never heard of anything like that in U.S. based racing.
    You're thinking of George Russell. Estoban Ocon and Pascal Wehrlein were a couple more. Wehrlein never really did anything in F1 but Ocon ended up at Renault with Daniel Ricciardo and severed his relationship with Mercedes.

    Why does the show feature some teams and drivers and completely ignore others? I am thinking of teams like Alfa Romero who have well known drivers but are hardly mentioned in the series.
    Two reasons:
    1. They go where the drama or interesting story is (e.g. Daniel Ricciardo switching to Renault).

    2. Because those others were "also rans". The last six teams in the constructor's championship were (points in parentheses):

    5. Renault (91)
    6. Toro Rosso (85)
    7. Racing Point - BWT (those ugly-ass pink cars) (73)
    8. Alfa Romeo (57)
    9. Haas (28)
    10. Williams (1)

    There just isn't much interest in them.
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  2. #52
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    I also think they don't tend to do many shows on Mercedes as they are just too boringly efficient, rarely make mistakes and never deviate from script, think Pats-Brady-Bilichek
    Ian

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  3. #53
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    They are based in different cities, Milton Keynes in the UK for Red Bull & Faenza in Italy for Toro Rosso. They have the same engine manufacturers, Renault.
    They switched to Hondas last year, remember? The year before, RB used Renaults while TR used Hondas. And one year RB used Renaults while TR used Ferraris.

    For a few years. the Honda engine was a real dud. Alonso retired too soon. I can only imagine what he would have done last year had he stayed at McLaren when you consider they finished 4th in the Constructors' with drivers like Sainz & Norris.
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  4. #54
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    They switched to Hondas last year, remember? The year before, RB used Renaults while TR used Hondas. And one year RB used Renaults while TR used Ferraris.

    For a few years. the Honda engine was a real dud. Alonso retired too soon. I can only imagine what he would have done last year had he stayed at McLaren when you consider they finished 4th in the Constructors' with drivers like Sainz & Norris.
    Ah yes, hard to keep track, you're right on Alonso, guess he got frustrated and doesn't need the money
    Ian

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  5. #55
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Nope. According to some sources, he's worth about $240 million.

    I've come to believe he's had a lot of bad luck and often thought he should have stayed with Benetton/Renault. lol He went to McLaren where he was essentially relegated to the #2 driver when Hamilton came onboard, went back to Renault who'd become a dud, went to Ferrari when they weren't competitive, and ended up at McLaren who hasn't won shit since '98.

    I've never seen a driver have that kind of foreknowledge about who's not going to be competitive.
    I never drink water. Fish fuck in it. - W. C. Fields

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post


    You're thinking of George Russell. Estoban Ocon and Pascal Wehrlein were a couple more. Wehrlein never really did anything in F1 but Ocon ended up at Renault with Daniel Ricciardo and severed his relationship with Mercedes.


    Two reasons:
    1. They go where the drama or interesting story is (e.g. Daniel Ricciardo switching to Renault).

    2. Because those others were "also rans". The last six teams in the constructor's championship were (points in parentheses):

    5. Renault (91)
    6. Toro Rosso (85)
    7. Racing Point - BWT (those ugly-ass pink cars) (73)
    8. Alfa Romeo (57)
    9. Haas (28)
    10. Williams (1)

    There just isn't much interest in them.
    I could swear that they profiled a driver who was signing to drive for another team, but his manager was the Mercedes guy and he was under some kind of contract, but signed to this other team. Maybe I am remembering it wrong, but I remember finding it very strange when watching it.

    Regarding the also ran comment. They did almost complete shows in Williams and Hass, and I actually found them almost more interesting than the shows focused on the big teams. I remember last year they featured the pink cars in one episode, but they were Team India (or something like that) at that point?

    At the end of the season they indicated that there was a plan in place for some kind of leveling of the playing field, from a money perspective for 2020. Obviously 2020 has not happened at this point, but do either of you know what that plan was? I guess you find this in all forms of racing, but Formula 1 especially seems to be where a very limited number of top money teams are the only ones in contention.

  7. #57
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    I could swear that they profiled a driver who was signing to drive for another team, but his manager was the Mercedes guy and he was under some kind of contract, but signed to this other team. Maybe I am remembering it wrong, but I remember finding it very strange when watching it.
    When you say the "Mercedes guy", do you mean Toto Wolff or Lewis Hamilton? I think both have a contract with a driver. Or maybe not. Hell, it's been at least 6 months since I've seen anything about that and I'm getting old. lol

    I'm thinking that was George Russell, tho, but I haven't seen that episode yet. My apologies. I've hardly watched any TV/movies for a while now, preferring to read.

    Unless you're thinking of Lance Stroll. Or Esteban Ocon. There's another guy who got sidelined last year but I can't think of who that was. Sorry.

    Regarding the also ran comment. They did almost complete shows in Williams and Hass, and I actually found them almost more interesting than the shows focused on the big teams. I remember last year they featured the pink cars in one episode, but they were Team India (or something like that) at that point?
    Yeah, last season they covered Haas. That was really interesting, I agree. Williams would be interesting too since they were such a dominating force in the '80s and part of the '90s.

    The pink team was Force India two years ago. The major share holder in the team got into big trouble, legally and financially (iirc), so another group or two stepped in to keep the team running.

    At the end of the season they indicated that there was a plan in place for some kind of leveling of the playing field, from a money perspective for 2020. Obviously 2020 has not happened at this point, but do either of you know what that plan was? I guess you find this in all forms of racing, but Formula 1 especially seems to be where a very limited number of top money teams are the only ones in contention.
    I read an article about "leveling the playing field" in Dec or Jan. I think the plan was simply to have a budget limit. The top three's spending has gotten out of hand.

    As for F1 having so few contenders due to spending, that's been more of a "recent" development, since probably the '80s when Honda was spending bucket loads on the McLaren Honda. Back in the day, I don't think there were any "factory" teams, other than Ferrari and Mercedes in the '50s. Even then, Ferrari started out as just another boutique car maker (decades ago, of course). Today, Mercedes' (or Ferrari's) budget probably exceeds the total budget for all of the IRL combined. I'm too lazy to check but it wouldn't surprise me if the combined budget of Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull last year was greater than the combined budgets of all the IRL and NASCAR teams. F1 is well over a billion dollars, now.

    Didn't you tell me a couple years ago you saw the documentary on Williams? That's pretty much how it used to be.

    You mentioned Ford vs Ferrari a few months back and I forgot to comment. No, I didn't get to see it. I'm not sure I wanted to see it; I tend to shy away from dramatizations like that. It's why I never saw the one about Nicki Lauda and James Hunt. I'd usually rather see a documentary.

    Speaking of which, there was a documentary about Le Mans or Ford and Ferrari that I saw on Amazon Prime. I think Ian saw it. Can't remember if you did. That was an excellent movie! I think it was The 24 Hour War. Unfortunately, it's not free anymore.

    When looking for the title of it, I ran across a doc, which is free w/Prime, that I keep forgetting to watch: 1. From Wikipedia: "The film traces the history of Formula One auto racing from its early years, in which some seasons had multiple fatalities, to the 1994 death of Ayrton Senna, the sport's most recent death at the time of production. Extensive and often rare archival footage is used throughout."

    Lastly, not F1 related, is The World's Fastest Indian. It's a biopic starring Anthony Hopkins as a Kiwi who tries to set the land speed record for motorcycles. I was a little dubious about how good it would be. I shouldn't have been. I'm not sure where you can find it, now, but you may try your local library. You won't be disappointed.
    Last edited by Hal...; 1 Week Ago at 08:09 PM.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    When you say the "Mercedes guy", do you mean Toto Wolff or Lewis Hamilton? I think both have a contract with a driver. Or maybe not. Hell, it's been at least 6 months since I've seen anything about that and I'm getting old. lol


    Didn't you tell me a couple years ago you saw the documentary on Williams? That's pretty much how it used to be.

    You mentioned Ford vs Ferrari a few months back and I forgot to comment. No, I didn't get to see it. I'm not sure I wanted to see it; I tend to shy away from dramatizations like that. It's why I never saw the one about Nicki Lauda and James Hunt. I'd usually rather see a documentary.

    Speaking of which, there was a documentary about Le Mans or Ford and Ferrari that I saw on Amazon Prime. I think Ian saw it. Can't remember if you did. That was an excellent movie! I think it was The 24 Hour War. Unfortunately, it's not free anymore.

    When looking for the title of it, I ran across a doc, which is free w/Prime, that I keep forgetting to watch: 1. From Wikipedia: "The film traces the history of Formula One auto racing from its early years, in which some seasons had multiple fatalities, to the 1994 death of Ayrton Senna, the sport's most recent death at the time of production. Extensive and often rare archival footage is used throughout."

    Lastly, not F1 related, is The World's Fastest Indian. It's a biopic starring Anthony Hopkins as a Kiwi who tries to set the land speed record for motorcycles. I was a little dubious about how good it would be. I shouldn't have been. I'm not sure where you can find it, now, but you may try your local library. You won't be disappointed.

    It was Toto Wollf I was thinking about. He appeared to be the manager (or something like that) of a younger driver who was on another lower level team, but I can't recall the drivers name.

    I did see the documentary on Williams, but it has been a while.

    I thought the film "Ford Vs Ferrari" was really really well done. I agree with you that most racing movies are not very good, but I thought they knocked it out of the park with this one, and it deserved the accolades it got. There was also a very good documentary on Netflix about the same subject matter that was very good.

    I will try to check out those other docs you mention. Netflix has a few others that deal with F-1 racing that I want to check out too.

    Also, I have seen The Worlds Fastest Indian, but it has been a long time ago. I remember it being a good film.

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