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  1. #276
    Member Just Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Glenday View Post

    I'm asking myself more and more often ... just how good is Bottas, really? He's clearly not in the Hamilton/Verstappen league - but if any other above-average driver was in the same car ... would they be better than Bottas? I'm beginning to think the answer is yes.
    Good observation. How much is Mercedes and how much is Bottas? In another car would be be top of the midfield? What is his contract situation? We may be able to find out during the back half of his career.
    Duncan's going to make a Horns Emoticon!!!

  2. #277
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Have to feel Norris could be in that seat next season.
    Ian

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
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  3. #278
    Member Burley Wright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Have to feel Norris could be in that seat next season.
    Or George Russell.

  4. #279
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Glenday View Post
    I was hoping for closer competition between LeClerc and Norris. They were 2 to 3 seconds apart almost all day and suddenly - nothing happened. It seems that some of the biggest competition this year will will be for the best-of-the-rest, specifically between Mclaren and Ferrari.
    I wouldn't count out Alpine, just yet. McLaren (53 pts) and Ferrari (42 pts) seem like the obvious best of the rest, while Alpine has only 13 pts, just 4 ahead of AlphaTauri and 8 ahead of Aston Martin. I expect by mid-season, tho, that the battle between McLaren, Ferrari, Alpine, and Aston Martin will be relatively close. Operative word, there: "expect".

    I'm asking myself more and more often ... just how good is Bottas, really? He's clearly not in the Hamilton/Verstappen league - but if any other above-average driver was in the same car ... would they be better than Bottas? I'm beginning to think the answer is yes.
    Agreed. Here are the drivers I think would probably do better than Bottas - over the course of a season:
    Norris
    Leclerc
    Alonso
    Russel
    Perez - as good, maybe better
    Danny Ric - as good, maybe better
    Sainz - maybe as good

    I also think if you stuck Gasly, Ocon, and Stroll in a Mercedes, they'd surprise us.

    I do think Bottas is good but seems inconsistent in how well he sets up his car. Plus, when his car isn't optimal he isn't as good as overcoming its faults the way Alonso can. Of course, I can't think of anyone who's as good as Alonso at that. Lewis' strength when his car isn't optimal seems to be to drive it until it is. Or, at least, manages to get the best performance from it he can.

    From what I've seen over the course of the past couple seasons is that Norris, Leclerc, and Russel are the best of the rest. Given his age, Alonso remains to be seen but I'm looking forward to it.

    I'm also really looking forward to seeing what kind of results Perez will get. I have no doubt he'll perform better than Albon & Gasly did when they were at Red Bull.

    My biggest question marks are Kimi & Vettel. Scratch that. Just Kimi. Vettel needs to retire.

    I've said I can't wait until Mercedes exits F1 but I will say this about their dominance: they've forced me to pay attention to 3rd-7th, which I don't think I've ever done, before the last couple years.

    BTW, I watched quite a few episodes of the F1 show on Netflix and a couple episodes were exceptional. And I'd forgotten what a stellar drive Perez put in to win Sakir. Sure, he was a little lucky in that Lewis didn't start, Max had a DNF, and Russell in the Mercedes had the mix-up with tires, but to come from last to first was still very impressive and will go down as maybe the second most memorable drive I've seen.

    If you're wondering, Kimi's win from 17th on the grid at Japan in '05, when he passed Fisichella on the last lap, was magnificent to behold.

    You know, something I never seem to remember is that Alonso started 16th that year and finished 3rd. That was an impressive drive, too.
    "For the near future, there are favorable implications in the fact that the recent reactions have not gone even as far down as the low point, which would have been normal."

  5. #280
    Moderator Duncan Glenday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    ...
    My biggest question marks are Kimi & Vettel. Scratch that. Just Kimi. Vettel needs to retire.
    ...



    (I actually did "LOL" at that)
    Regards,

    Duncan

  6. #281
    Member Just Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post

    BTW, I watched quite a few episodes of the F1 show on Netflix and a couple episodes were exceptional. And I'd forgotten what a stellar drive Perez put in to win Sakir. Sure, he was a little lucky in that Lewis didn't start, Max had a DNF, and Russell in the Mercedes had the mix-up with tires, but to come from last to first was still very impressive and will go down as maybe the second most memorable drive I've seen.
    His jubilance taking the checkered flag was infectious.

    Help me understand why/how Mercedes would leave F1?

    Also, I was checking up on Indy car yesterday and saw that Grossjean is driving there now. I thought he was going to retire for real after the accident.
    Duncan's going to make a Horns Emoticon!!!

  7. #282
    Moderator Duncan Glenday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Eric View Post
    ...
    Help me understand why/how Mercedes would leave F1?
    ...
    I doubt they would - but if they do, someone else would doubtlessly pick them up.

    Remember - that team used to be "Brawn Racing", and before that, they were "Honda"

    Bear in mind also that Mercedes does not fully own the current so-called "Mercedes" F1 team. The team is owned 1/3 my Mercedes, 1/3 by Toto Wolfe, and 1/3 by Ineos - their new sponsor.
    Regards,

    Duncan

  8. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Glenday View Post
    I doubt they would - but if they do, someone else would doubtlessly pick them up.

    Remember - that team used to be "Brawn Racing", and before that, they were "Honda"

    Bear in mind also that Mercedes does not fully own the current so-called "Mercedes" F1 team. The team is owned 1/3 my Mercedes, 1/3 by Toto Wolfe, and 1/3 by Ineos - their new sponsor.
    Now that you mention I do recall knowing that Toto was part owner and I guess conceivably Mercedes could sell their third.
    Duncan's going to make a Horns Emoticon!!!

  9. #284
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    They'd only probably leave if the rules were changed to make them uncompetitive and it was no longer a marketing or research & development benefit.
    Ian

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
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  10. #285
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    Not F-1, but one of the all time great Indy car drivers passed away yesterday. I saw him race many times back in the day:


  11. #286
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Re: Mercedes. I say that about them exiting because prior to WWII and in the '50s, they had a very competitive car. They won a lot of GP races prior to WWII and Fangio dominated the '54 & '55 seasons in a Mercedes. Prior to WWII, the GP season consisted of anywhere from 15 to 30+ races: 4-7 European Championship races (depending on the year) and about a dozen to 30 non-championship races. The constructors who dominated during this period were Mercedes, Auto Union (Audi), Alfa Romeo, Bugatti, and Maserati (Ferrari didn't enter GP races until '48). Mercedes drivers were all German and drove under the Nazi flag and won the European Championship 4x, from '35-'38.

    Oddly, in the early days, there was no driver's champion, only constructor's. Once the official F1 season began in '50, there was only a driver's champion. The constructor's wasn't added until '58.

    WWII - or, more accurately, when Germany invaded Poland - GP racing was interrupted. It resumed in '40 and from '40 to '45, only two races were held in Europe. The rest were in held in the US or South America.

    But after WWII, Mercedes didn't get into racing until '54 and were gone by '56. Which is why Fangio signed with Ferrari.

    I realize it's not the same situation now, especially since 4 of 10 current teams use Mercedes engines. But I could see them, like other engine suppliers in the past such as Ford-Cosworth, Honda, Porsche, and BMW, getting out.
    "For the near future, there are favorable implications in the fact that the recent reactions have not gone even as far down as the low point, which would have been normal."

  12. #287
    Moderator Duncan Glenday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    Re: Mercedes. I say that about them exiting because prior to WWII and in the '50s, they had a very competitive car. They won a lot of GP races prior to WWII and Fangio dominated the '54 & '55 seasons in a Mercedes
    ...
    I'll take your word for it, and will respect your memory. I wasn't around then.





    Kidding!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    I realize it's not the same situation now, especially since 4 of 10 current teams use Mercedes engines. But I could see them, like other engine suppliers in the past such as Ford-Cosworth, Honda, Porsche, and BMW, getting out.
    True - and all of those manufacturers have been in and out of F1 - it seems that very few of them last for long (the exceptions being Ferrari and Mclaren). So I'd agree that Merc won't be in F1 forever, but I'd guess they'll be around until at least 2025.

    I'm trying to remember what other manufacturers have been in and out. I recall that Yamaha was providing engines once. Lotus have been in and out twice. (I'll Google it some time...)
    Regards,

    Duncan

  13. #288
    Moderator Duncan Glenday's Avatar
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    On a different, but loosely-related topic : Does anyone follow MotoGP? It's kinda the "F1 for motorcycles".

    Even though I raced motorcycles when I was young and foolish (now, I'm just foolish ) - I only (re)started following top-level track racing recently.
    Regards,

    Duncan

  14. #289
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Glenday View Post
    I'll take your word for it, and will respect your memory. I wasn't around then.
    OMG. I damn near had a cardiac from laughing so hard. Have you considered taking your act on the road? </sarcasm>

    Seriously, it did make me laugh.

    True - and all of those manufacturers have been in and out of F1 - it seems that very few of them last for long (the exceptions being Ferrari and Mclaren)
    I was thinking primarily of engine makers.

    I'm trying to remember what other manufacturers have been in and out. I recall that Yamaha was providing engines once. Lotus have been in and out twice. (I'll Google it some time...)
    I don't remember Yamaha but that did remind me of Toyota, who were amazingly uncompetitive, fwir. Ralf Schumacher drove for them, didn't he?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Glenday View Post
    On a different, but loosely-related topic : Does anyone follow MotoGP? It's kinda the "F1 for motorcycles".
    I did for a couple years, when Valentino Rossi and Casey Stoner were racing, but got frustrated at the difficulty in finding the races on TV and gave up.

    I guess they're on NBCSN.
    Last edited by Hal...; 2 Days Ago at 03:21 PM.
    "For the near future, there are favorable implications in the fact that the recent reactions have not gone even as far down as the low point, which would have been normal."

  15. #290
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Someone recently commented that they've never seen race car drivers as athletes. After a little research, this is my response:

    Starting in the late '70s or early '80s, drivers realized they had to be athletes because of what the sport entails. I only know about F1, so I can't speak of other series/formulas, but consider...

    the average person stuck into a F1 car could not finish a race due to fatigue.

    F1 drivers train at a level the way other professional athletes do. They have to because of what their body is put through.

    a modern F1 car can accelerate to 100mph and come to a stop in less than 5 seconds. Do you realize how many Gs a body goes through doing that? The acceleration is 2 Gs and the braking is 5-6 Gs. If you were in top physical condition and weighed 160 lbs, you'd weigh 800-960 lbs while braking in an F1 car.

    speaking of Gs, many years ago, an F1 driver by the name of Nigel Mansell would demonstrate how, during a F1 season, he couldn't button the top button of his shirt because of how thick his neck had gotten from going through high speed corners.

    at high speed corners at F1 races, a driver regularly experiences 4-6 Gs and at the Turkish GP, the 8-9-10 corner complex (meaning it's really just one long corner) produces 7 to 8 Gs. And, depending on the length of the course, a race is anywhere from 44 laps (for longer tracks) to 70 laps (for shorter ones), so they experience those high Gs 6x-10x that number over the course of the race, since most courses have at least two high speed corners and numerous high braking sections.

    during a race they cope with a total load of 88,185 lbs in approx. 60 laps.

    the average heart rate for a F1 driver during a race is 150-170 bpm for 1-2 hours! The only other sports I know of where this occurs is cross-country skiing and the marathon.

    peak heart rate during high stress moments is between 180-210 bpm.

    during an average race, F1 drivers lose about 8.34 lbs of weight thru perspiration (= 1 gallon of fluids) and burn 3,000 calories. In comparison, a marathon runner will burn ~2,500 calories. In addition, an F1 driver's body temperature hovers between 120 & 140.

    an F1 driver releases twice as much adrenaline and noradrenaline per minute as an athlete who is simply exerting him/herself on a training bike.

    Now do you think a race car driver is an athlete?

    I'm kinda glad you forced me into doing the research because I'm now of the opinion that F1 drivers are some of the fittest athletes in all of sport. That's why they all have personal trainers.

    A couple of links I used for my research that might prove useful in the future:
    http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/g_force.html
    https://www.cosinuss.com/en/portfoli...r-formel-eins/
    "For the near future, there are favorable implications in the fact that the recent reactions have not gone even as far down as the low point, which would have been normal."

  16. #291
    Moderator Duncan Glenday's Avatar
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    Yep - what you described is no surprise to me - I'm aware that they've all become super-athletes.

    Incidentally - one of the most common training tools almost all of them use is cycling, and I know that about half of the drivers and numerous support staff and engineers ship their bikes to every track, and they do group rides together. (They're almost all also runners, and some do triathlons - when they have time.)

    I follow a few of them on Strava (it's the most common cycling activity tracker). For example - for a few years, I noticed that Jenson Button was doing about the same mileage - and at the same average speeds - as I was doing ... and I was actively racing bikes at that time.

    A few years ago, Alonso tried to formulate and sponsor a professional cycling team. (It didn't work out.) I know that Many of them run - and most also cycle - each track a day or 2 before they get into FP1.

    But it isn't just F1. For example some of the Nascar drivers are regular cyclists as well, and hold annual charity cycling events.

    I recently watched an interesting video: A cycling journalist (who is also a very strong rider and former top-level racer) met Tony Kanaan, for a training session. The level of competitive fitness, in various disciplines, that Canaan showed was remarkable.





    BTW - I love Ineos - the key sponsor and 1/3-owner of Mercedes. They are also the key sponsor for one of the most successful top-level cycling teams of all time. AND - they also sponsor one of my other favorite sports, Americas Cup sailboat racing.
    Regards,

    Duncan

  17. #292
    Moderator Duncan Glenday's Avatar
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    MotoGP...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    I did for a couple years, when Valentino Rossi and Casey Stoner were racing, but got frustrated at the difficulty in finding the races on TV and gave up.

    I guess they're on NBCSN.
    Yep - NBCSN
    Regards,

    Duncan

  18. #293
    Member since 7/13/2000 Hal...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Glenday View Post
    I follow a few of them on Strava (it's the most common cycling activity tracker). For example - for a few years, I noticed that Jenson Button was doing about the same mileage - and at the same average speeds - as I was doing ... and I was actively racing bikes at that time.
    Yeah, but to be fair, you had how many years on Jenson?

    BTW - I love Ineos - the key sponsor and 1/3-owner of Mercedes. They are also the key sponsor for one of the most successful top-level cycling teams of all time. AND - they also sponsor one of my other favorite sports, Americas Cup sailboat racing.
    Ineos Grenadiers! Of course! (I hadn't made the connection until now) I started watching the Tour de France in '16, I think, and saw Chris Froome win 2 Tours in a row with team Sky (the forerunner to Ineos Grenadiers) and then Geraint Thomas win the next year. I missed 2019 but saw last year's when Pogačar won.

    BTW, I just saw that Thomas won the Tour de Romandie a couple days ago.
    "For the near future, there are favorable implications in the fact that the recent reactions have not gone even as far down as the low point, which would have been normal."

  19. #294
    Moderator Duncan Glenday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    Yeah, but to be fair, you had how many years on Jenson?
    ...
    Bah! Humbug! He's a bloody young whippersnapper!


    LOL
    Regards,

    Duncan

  20. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal... View Post
    Someone recently commented that they've never seen race car drivers as athletes. After a little research, this is my response:

    Starting in the late '70s or early '80s, drivers realized they had to be athletes because of what the sport entails. I only know about F1, so I can't speak of other series/formulas, but consider...

    • the average person stuck into a F1 car could not finish a race due to fatigue.

    • F1 drivers train at a level the way other professional athletes do. They have to because of what their body is put through.

    • a modern F1 car can accelerate to 100mph and come to a stop in less than 5 seconds. Do you realize how many Gs a body goes through doing that? The acceleration is 2 Gs and the braking is 5-6 Gs. If you were in top physical condition and weighed 160 lbs, you'd weigh 800-960 lbs while braking in an F1 car.

    • speaking of Gs, many years ago, an F1 driver by the name of Nigel Mansell would demonstrate how, during a F1 season, he couldn't button the top button of his shirt because of how thick his neck had gotten from going through high speed corners.

    • at high speed corners at F1 races, a driver regularly experiences 4-6 Gs and at the Turkish GP, the 8-9-10 corner complex (meaning it's really just one long corner) produces 7 to 8 Gs. And, depending on the length of the course, a race is anywhere from 44 laps (for longer tracks) to 70 laps (for shorter ones), so they experience those high Gs 6x-10x that number over the course of the race, since most courses have at least two high speed corners and numerous high braking sections.

    • during a race they cope with a total load of 88,185 lbs in approx. 60 laps.

    • the average heart rate for a F1 driver during a race is 150-170 bpm for 1-2 hours! The only other sports I know of where this occurs is cross-country skiing and the marathon.

    • peak heart rate during high stress moments is between 180-210 bpm.

    • during an average race, F1 drivers lose about 8.34 lbs of weight thru perspiration (= 1 gallon of fluids) and burn 3,000 calories. In comparison, a marathon runner will burn ~2,500 calories. In addition, an F1 driver's body temperature hovers between 120 & 140.

    • an F1 driver releases twice as much adrenaline and noradrenaline per minute as an athlete who is simply exerting him/herself on a training bike.

    Now do you think a race car driver is an athlete?

    I'm kinda glad you forced me into doing the research because I'm now of the opinion that F1 drivers are some of the fittest athletes in all of sport. That's why they all have personal trainers.

    A couple of links I used for my research that might prove useful in the future:
    http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/g_force.html
    https://www.cosinuss.com/en/portfoli...r-formel-eins/
    This is not just true for F-1, but all forms of top level racing these days require drivers to be athletes. Even NASCAR and short track drivers are fit as hell these days. The days of the fat “bubba” race car driver are long gone.

  21. #296
    Moderator Duncan Glenday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    This is not just true for F-1, but all forms of top level racing these days require drivers to be athletes. Even NASCAR and short track drivers are fit as hell these days. The days of the fat “bubba” race car driver are long gone.
    True - and I think it's true of almost all sports.

    In golf, for example, one of Tiger Woods's biggest contributions to the sport was his (when he was younger) intense training regimen - which others soon learned to mimic if they were to have any chance of keeping up.
    Regards,

    Duncan

  22. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Glenday View Post
    True - and I think it's true of almost all sports.

    In golf, for example, one of Tiger Woods's biggest contributions to the sport was his (when he was younger) intense training regimen - which others soon learned to mimic if they were to have any chance of keeping up.
    Agree, today's top golfers are all jacked.

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