Ned Lagin (Grateful Dead related, but sounding NOTHING like the Dead)

[GuitarGeek]

Listened to the new double CD edition of Ned Lagin's Seastones album today. Lagin is a composer/musician/photographer who spent time around th eGrateful Dead during the first half of the 70's. Seastones is a compostion he created during that time, parts of which were performed by him and Phil Lesh in concert during the Dead's show sin 1974, as well as a small gaggle of performances that featured the two of them, and sometimes also Jerry Garcia and MIckey Hart, circa 73-75.

In 1975 , the orignal Seastones album was released, a sort of semi-ambient avant garde piece featuring Lagin on keyboards, synths and computers, with contributions from Lesh, Garcia, Hart, Grace Slick, David Freiberg, Spencer Dryden, and David Crosby. I know what that looks like on paper, sounds like some sort of San Fran rock summit, but it's anything but. This is a very "out there" record, closer to the experimental contemporary music that Lesh was ensconced in, before Jerry Garcia talked him into joining The Warlocks. Unfortunately, the album went out of print when Round Records, the label the Dead established for their extracurricular recording activities outside the band, vanished, along with hit's parent company, Grateful Dead Records, in in 1976. I twas reissued on Rykodisc in the early 90's, with a 30 minute bonus track, but that too went out of print relatively quick, and fetches big bucks on the used market now.

The new double CD release isn't quite a reissue. It features 110 minutes worth of music, presenting (apparently) most of the musical fragments that make up the full piece, most of which didn't appear on either the Round or Ryko releases. I've been waiting for this for well over 20 years now, and I have ot say, it's pretty awesome to finally have this. And it's awesome that Ned finally got to release it with the indvidual "moments" indexed separately (he apparently took exception to Ryko indexing their release as two long tracks, as he intended the listener to choose which combination of moments he/she listened to, in any given order, during a listening session). What can I say? If you've ever heard the original album or the Ryko relase, you know what ot expect. If not, go over to Youtube and have a listen. The album is avialable at spiritcats.com

[Mister Triscuits]

Thanks for the tip! I'm a big fan of the original album and didn't know about this. Ordered!

[GuitarGeek]

[GuitarGeek]

Thanks for the tip! I'm a big fan of the original album and didn't know about this. Ordered!

It just came out a couple months ago. I had heard that there was "more music" that Ned had recorded than what appeare don the Ryko reissue, so every so often I'd Google him, to see what was up. Incidentally, he also has a new album called Cat Dreams, I got that as well, but haven't played it yet, probably won't get to it til tomorrow.

[spellbound]

Thanks for the heads-up. Did not know about the new expanded edition.

[Mister Triscuits]

I once ran into a guy at a record fair who had just bought the LP because he saw it featured Jerry Garcia, Grace Slick, David Crosby, etc. I hated to break the news to him.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Seastones is utterly remarkable. Like an acidhead alumni from a Darmstadt seminar. I've got the 90s RykoDisc rendition with versions from February and December of '75. Total electronic bubbly bliss - and so different from other then-current 'juvenile' attempts at that, both in the US (Tonto's Expanding Headband, Mother Mallard etc., both good though) and Europe.

[Mister Triscuits]

Seastones is utterly remarkable. Like an acidhead alumni from a Darmstadt seminar. I've got the 90s RykoDisc rendition with versions from February and December of '75. Total electronic bubbly bliss - and so different from other then-current 'juvenile' attempts at that, both in the US (Tonto's Expanding Headband, Mother Mallard etc., both good though) and Europe.

I'd say you're right on point in comparing Seastones to Stockhausen/Darmstadt school, but it's a bit unfair to say that Tonto and Mother Mallard suffer as attempts at the same thing, because I see them as coming from completely different places--Tonto from the Perrey & Kingsley/Moog-as-novelty bag, and MM from Glass and the minimalists.

[Scrotum Scissor]

it's a bit unfair to say that Tonto and Mother Mallard suffer as attempts at the same thing, because I see them as coming from completely different Places

Yes.

[GuitarGeek]

I once ran into a guy at a record fair who had just bought the LP because he saw it featured Jerry Garcia, Grace Slick, David Crosby, etc. I hated to break the news to him.

Reminds me of the time I mentioned on whichever forum it was that I had recently listened to an album by Derek Bailey and Jamie Muir, to which someone asked, "How does it compare to Larks Tongues In Aspic". I think I said "It doesn't, it's a free improv record, completely different from Larks Tongues".

Yeah, don't go to this record if you looking for American Beauty meets If Only I Could Remember My Name meets Bless It's Pointed Little Head, or whatever. You're not gonna get anything that remotely sounds like the stereotypical music associated with Jerry, Cros, or the Chrome Nun.

Supposedly, Lagin got pushed out of the Dead's inner circle because there were those who were convinced he was having a little too much influence over Jerry and Phil. Yeah, Jerry was never gonna go far before reverting back to his early love of folk music forms, but I could see some people around the band feeling like the weird stuff was getting a little self indulgent and overtaking the "normal" stuff a bit too much. In theory, the band itself didn't care about "commercial" concerns, but I think management and others around them did care that the weird stuff could alienate the fanbase.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Reminds me of the time I mentioned on whichever forum it was that I had recently listened to an album by Derek Bailey and Jamie Muir, to which someone asked, "How does it compare to Larks Tongues In Aspic". I think I said "It doesn't, it's a free improv record, completely different from Larks Tongues".

I hate it when that happens. With a certain brand of (more or less) ignorant folks, there's often a misunderstanding as to the novelty of disparate parts involved; for instance with some "proggers" who might have thought that Muir was in KC at the mercy of the other members - as opposed to the exact way around. Here in Norway I remember a bizarre interview with esteemed contemporary composer pioneer Arne Nordheim in a program hosted by one of the university radios sometime back in the very early 90s, in which an enthusiastic (yet probably quite spotty) adolescent dude kept pushing Nordheim on his alleged affinities for Pink Floyd. As if this was the actual intention of inviting the man into the studio in the first place. It evolved into a highly embarrassing transition of comments and notions which attested to how totally aware Nordheim was that the guy with the questions didn't know twat about his music other than the grand status surrounding and empowering it. Complete spectacle.

This being said, I always found the involvement of "highbrow muscle" into ambitious bands like the Dead (with Constanten and Lagin), KC (Tippett and Muir), HCow (Westbrook, Schweizer a.o.), Supersister (Mariano), Area (Steve Lacy) etc. to manifest in a level of achievement which many other acts lost out to. They were interesting times.

[GuitarGeek]

This being said, I always found the involvement of "highbrow muscle" into ambitious bands like the Dead (with Constanten and Lagin),

Lesh, also. Phil and TC both studied with Luciano Berio, and apparently, had plans to go to Germany to study with Karlheinz Stockhausen. They reportedly planned at one stage to make their way to Reno, Nevada (which, according to Jeremy Clarkson, "is a lot like Las Vegas, only smaller, and worse!") where they planned to get jobs working in one of the casinos to raise money for said trip, but one way or another, it never happened, TC joined the Air Force, and Phil got a job at the post office, then let Jerry Garcia talk him into playing in his rock n roll band.

I think it was Phil who really pushed the band into some of the weirder waters they went into. I think Jerry was also into that too, he seemed to be just into "weirdness" full stop, so I think the two of them fed off that, and it was up to Weir and the others to rein both of them in, when they got "too far out there".

there's often a misunderstanding as to the novelty of disparate parts involved; for instance with some "proggers" who might have thought that Muir was in KC at the mercy of the other members - as opposed to the exact way around.

Well, I'm not sure if it was "at the mercy" of anyone or whatever, but I think Fripp tapped Muir because he wanted to bring that British/European free improv thing into Crimson's music.

The thing about Muir is, he's kind of an enigmatic character. He's only appeared on a small handful of records, so the fact that some might not know about his association with people like Derek Bailey and Evan Parker isn't really surprising. And if you're not up on the whole British free improv thing, one might be forgiven for recognizing Muir's name from Larks Tongues and wondering how his other work might relate to his time working with Chuckles, Carpet, Dust and...what was Bruford's nickname (or was he Wilton Carpet? I know Daniel Dust is David Cross).

But there's a lot of stuff like that. Case in point: if your only exposure to Pete Sinfield's lyrics was in the context of Crimson and ELP, you might be surprised that he subsequently developed a career as a pop songwriter (he wrote a Eurovision winner, didn't he?). And I'm still amused that Ben Mink went from playing with FM to working with KD Lang.

[Mister Triscuits]

what was Bruford's nickname

Bartley Butsford

[pb2015]

Lesh, also. Phil and TC both studied with Luciano Berio, and apparently, had plans to go to Germany to study with Karlheinz Stockhausen. They reportedly planned at one stage to make their way to Reno, Nevada (which, according to Jeremy Clarkson, "is a lot like Las Vegas, only smaller, and worse!") where they planned to get jobs working in one of the casinos to raise money for said trip, but one way or another, it never happened, TC joined the Air Force, and Phil got a job at the post office, then let Jerry Garcia talk him into playing in his rock n roll band.

I remember reading some CD reviews by Phil Lesh in a modern classical music magazine in the 90's. Around that time the Rex Foundation (the Dead's charity organization) financed a CD of Elliott Carter's music, which I guess was Lesh's doing.

[GuitarGeek]

Bartley Butsford

Thank you...so, as I was suggesting, someone who isn't up on the British free improv scene, would probably more closely associate Muir with his work with Chuckles, Carpet, Butsford and Dust, and thus think of his other, more obscure work, in relation to Larks Tongues.

I remember reading some CD reviews by Phil Lesh in a modern classical music magazine in the 90's. Around that time the Rex Foundation (the Dead's charity organization) financed a CD of Elliott Carter's music, which I guess was Lesh's doing.

I hdan't heard about Carter recording, but there were several English composers where the Rex Foundation bankrolled some albums. Off the top of my head, I can only remember Harvegal Brian and Sir Michael Tippett. There was a documentary done circa 93 or 94, I think, about the whole matter. Phil was interviewed, he detailed how he funneled some of the Rex Foundation funds into those projects. He said he chose English composers because English is the only language he speaks well enough to communicate with the composers (or in Brian's case, his estate, as he had already passed away). I gather he wanted the composers, where possible, to be involved in the recording projects, so that they would feel justice had been done to their work (ie not like the infamous Stockhausen recording, I forget which piece and which label was involved, but legend has it, Herr Karlheinz stopped listening to the recording after the first minute because "I've already lost track of the number of mistakes")

As I recall, they interview Sir Michael Tippett who comments on receiving a letter from "Phil Lesh of the so called Grateful Dead", and how he could tell he was obviously a very intelligent man because he wasn't raving on like a maniac in the letter. There was another composer, whose name I've forgotten who said, he was apparently a Dead fan, and when he learned his agent had been contacted by Lesh, he sort of went bananas, the way a fanboy would. I also recall in this documentary, there was a bit about Pharaoh Sanders, because he had, at the time, recently received a grant from the Rex Foundation.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I think it was Phil who really pushed the band into some of the weirder waters they went into. [...]

I'm not sure if it was "at the mercy" of anyone or whatever, but I think Fripp tapped Muir because he wanted to bring that British/European free improv thing into Crimson's music.

The thing about Muir is, he's kind of an enigmatic character. He's only appeared on a small handful of records, so the fact that some might not know about his association with people like Derek Bailey and Evan Parker isn't really surprising. And if you're not up on the whole British free improv thing, one might be forgiven for recognizing Muir's name from Larks Tongues and wondering how his other work might relate

re: Lesh; back in my days as profound Dead-afficcionado, there was this overall understanding that the avant-garde element of Anthem of the Sun had as much to do with Lesh convincing the other band members in light of Constanten's involvement. It remains my fave Dead album.

re: Muir; he'd been an integral component in the circuit around the Spontaneous Music Ensemble and AMM, both of whom were objects of keen interest from Mike Giles and Fripp already at the beginning of KC. Muir was also active in establishing the legendary Incus label, together with Bailey, Parker, Han Bennink and a handful of others. You're absolutely right about the "enigmatic" part, of course - but in general I tend to believe that when most "prog folks" don't seem to quite "get" the band's (KC's) aspirations at free improvisation (as in "[...] I always skip that strange part in 'Moonchild' and I don't like 'Providence'), it corresponds with the common lack of understanding for basic principles in improv as a formally acknowledged expression in art. As if somehow the random stuffing of parts and prearranged ideas would by rule constitute a more "worthy" approach.

[spacefreak]

Love the Seastones album, didn't know that a 110 mins edition exist, it's going on the autobuy list to save my old vinyl for further abuse... Thanks for letting us know.

PS. By the way, a most welcoming reissue from the avant realms is the private 1973 Mouvements album from Switzerland. Great interplay between free jazz spontaneity and free rock abstract soundscapes. Done the correct way, by the folks at Mental Experience.

[pb2015]

I hdan't heard about Carter recording, but there were several English composers where the Rex Foundation bankrolled some albums.

The Carter was recorded in London, a CD of the Concerto For Orchestra on the Virgin Classics label. Harrison Birtwistle is a composer I remember David Gans (Grateful Dead Hour etc) mentioning who I think is another one Lesh supported.