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Thread: Blood on the Rooftops - what does "they're out for 23" mean?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by SongForAmerica View Post
    [...] It's amusing that the band went to pieces not when Peter Gabriel left but when Steve Hackett did.
    You have an interesting definition of "went to pieces" if that's what you feel happened to the band.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ground and Sky's Ghost View Post
    I once read a P. G. Wodehouse story that involved a very detailed description of a cricket game, and after reading pages and pages and pages about it, the sport still made absolutely no sense to me.
    Any time someone describes the rules to me, smoke starts coming out of my ears. All I know about it is that W. G. Grace was a player.

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  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Ground and Sky's Ghost View Post
    My wife got us tickets to see a Genesis tribute band (The Genesis Show) tomorrow night, and apparently their current set list focuses mostly on the Wind and Wuthering and Seconds Out albums.
    Show was awesome, BTW. Just got home from it. There were a few minor flubs here and there, but overall they're a pretty darned good Genesis tribute. I think the set list was exactly what Genesis was playing in 1977 (I found a '77 set list online for a show in Philadelphia), except they dropped "Your Own Special Way" and replaced it with "Inside and Out". Which works for me.

    Their performance of Supper's Ready was fantastic. They nailed it.

    Best between-song announcement: the guy filling the Collins role said "We're playing everything exactly the way Genesis did in 1977. On drugs. Except for us it's Flomax and blood pressure medication."

    Well worth seeing if they come anywhere near you. They're from southern New Jersey, not sure how far they travel for shows. Their web site currently only lists one future show, and it's in NJ. They could use some more support from prog fans. The venue where we saw them (Whitaker Center in Harrisburg, PA) isn't overly large, but sadly there were enough empty seats that management decided to close the balcony. Our tickets were supposed to be front row of the balcony, but we got "upgraded" to the left edge of the mezzanine. Oh well, we had a good view from there, and we could see through a break in the curtains and watch the two young guys who were running the sound and light boards, and they were ROCKING OUT back there. A highlight of the evening was watching the two of them do a synchronized air-drum-fill during Afterglow.
    Last edited by Ground and Sky's Ghost; 03-25-2018 at 12:00 AM.

  4. #54
    I never understood the venom against Your Own Special Way, even the Rhodes solo. It is a nice change of pace from 11th and OFTV and then Wot Gorilla. I like the vocal melody, especially the chorus, Rutherfords typical weird 12 string tuning, Tony’s portamento synth and then arpeggios during the final verses. It’s not like it is Invisible Touch.

    Same with AIAMN - “mouse and twee” songs were all the rage then [One Brown Mouse, Mouse Police Never Sleeps, Circus of Heaven. Ok, so “bread bin” ain’t the easiest thing to sing according to Phil, but it is a fun story-song and that outro is f’in great.

    Yeah, i’d ditch Wot Gorilla for Inside and Out. But Wots works fine as an interlude between the epics.

    Maybe they should have released a double album and called it 3Sides Studio with 1 live side from the Trick Tour (White Mountain, Lamb Stew and Entangle?)

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasKDye View Post
    Fair enough. It definitely seems like a sad existence, since the next line is "The grime on the Tyne is mine, all mine."
    the 70's were grimm times in the UK... not just economically, but the air pollution (smog) was still very much of actuality back then (though less than previous decades) - Fog On The Tyne, from labelmate Lindisfarne)

    Quote Originally Posted by SongForAmerica View Post
    I have a vague memory from the 1970s of some riot that broke out at some sporting event in Europe/England.

    Surely the final line, about Helen of Troy, is about how easily some people find reasons to engage in violence. Helen of Troy was the reason for the Trojan War, right? A pretty stupid reason to go to war. And a sporting event is a pretty stupid reason for a riot.
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I never saw it as that literal/specific. Just a metaphor for the latest hot, new, beautiful actress on the scene. The next in a long line before her, and with many more yet to come.
    That's the way (Trojan wars) I read it as well, but the new film/TV faces sounds plausible as well

    As for riots at sporting events, it's sadly a European invention, when supporting the sport team was the only distraction for certain laborious classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Yes. I seem to recall that Hackett actually said in an interview that it was about 'couch potatoes'- all that's going on in the world so it's easier for people to focus on TV triviality instead. I think the references are just random things that could have been on TV at that point in time.
    I guess people already know this but this is a reference to their labelmates Lindisfarne's song 'Fog On The Tyne' (subtitute 'grime' for 'fog' and you essentially have its chorus).
    Yup on both counts... Though I'm kind of surprised that Hackett would refer to Batman and Superman, when Biggles was the British hero of those decades

    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    I thought Hackett said it was about visiting his parents, and them getting all their news and information from television and not always understanding world events - "arabs and the jews boy, too much for me"
    Close enough to the previous quote I did. Hackett's parents could've been the couch potatoes

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    'Your Own Special Way' doesn't justify its length for me. And I've posted many times how much I dislike the electric piano solo. I think I'd like the song more if it was shorter...their later excursions into this more 'commercial' territory were tighter, for better or worse, depending on how you feel.

    '...Mouse's Night' is musically very good but too corny lyrically for my taste. I feel similarly about 'The Lady Lies' on the follow-up.
    The electric Rhodes is out of place in the song's acoustic frame
    Mouse's Night is another one of those comedy opera that genesis started with Harold, Epping Forest and Robbery Assault & Battery... I like it, but prefer the last two (I didn't include Get Them Out in there as it isn't a comedy opera)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adinfinitum View Post
    I never understood the venom against Your Own Special Way, even the Rhodes solo. It is a nice change of pace from 11th and OFTV and then Wot Gorilla.
    TBH, it's totally outside the album's climate and has no place there, IMHO. And worse, it's twice the lengh it need to be... that's probably even more irritating that the song(s presence on the album.
    I probably wouldn't hate that song if it was on a 70's Genesis album
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Yes. I seem to recall that Hackett actually said in an interview that it was about 'couch potatoes'- all that's going on in the world so it's easier for people to focus on TV triviality instead. I think the references are just random things that could have been on TV at that point in time.

    One of the best things they ever did, IMHO. The arrangement is stunning, and whilst Hackett's acoustic playing certainly gets to shine, Banks' keyboard playing is also exquisite. Sadly never played live by Genesis (something Banks also expressed some regret about, I think in the Chapter And Verse book?) but it did become a set staple for Hackett over the latter part of his career.



    I guess people already know this but this is a reference to their labelmates Lindisfarne's song 'Fog On The Tyne' (subtitute 'grime' for 'fog' and you essentially have its chorus).
    Quote Originally Posted by SongForAmerica View Post
    Without "Wot Gorilla?", side one of Wind and Wuthering would be a perfect album side, with three superb songs: "Eleventh Earl of Mar," "One for the Vine," and "Your Own Special Way." "Blood on the Rooftops" is the highlight of side two.

    Wind and Wuthering is my favorite Genesis album, followed by A Trick of the Tail: excellent music and excellent lyrics. It's amusing that the band went to pieces not when Peter Gabriel left but when Steve Hackett did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ground and Sky's Ghost View Post
    Show was awesome, BTW. Just got home from it. There were a few minor flubs here and there, but overall they're a pretty darned good Genesis tribute. I think the set list was exactly what Genesis was playing in 1977 (I found a '77 set list online for a show in Philadelphia), except they dropped "Your Own Special Way" and replaced it with "Inside and Out". Which works for me.

    Their performance of Supper's Ready was fantastic. They nailed it.

    Best between-song announcement: the guy filling the Collins role said "We're playing everything exactly the way Genesis did in 1977. On drugs. Except for us it's Flomax and blood pressure medication."

    Well worth seeing if they come anywhere near you. They're from southern New Jersey, not sure how far they travel for shows. Their web site currently only lists one future show, and it's in NJ. They could use some more support from prog fans. The venue where we saw them (Whitaker Center in Harrisburg, PA) isn't overly large, but sadly there were enough empty seats that management decided to close the balcony. Our tickets were supposed to be front row of the balcony, but we got "upgraded" to the left edge of the mezzanine. Oh well, we had a good view from there, and we could see through a break in the curtains and watch the two young guys who were running the sound and light boards, and they were ROCKING OUT back there. A highlight of the evening was watching the two of them do a synchronized air-drum-fill during Afterglow.
    Cool. Thanks for reporting back. I didn't think Your Own Special Way was ever played live until that tour of Australia in the mid-80s? I could be wrong. I know some songs were tried out on stage & then dropped (Inside & Out, later Down & Out, probably others).

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Cool. Thanks for reporting back. I didn't think Your Own Special Way was ever played live until that tour of Australia in the mid-80s? I could be wrong.
    It was played for a few months on the W&W tour, around February to April of '77, but then dropped. I think Mouse's Night was dropped even sooner.
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  8. #58
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    Adinfinitum, I'm all in favor of more official Trick tour releases! Regarding YOSW (again, sorry), my main beef (besides that good awful Rhodes break) is the length; if it were the length of a single 3 or 4 minutes, I could abide it. It would've made room for something else to be added to the W&W album. And I could probably better enjoy it for what it is. As a "epic," it's a failure. I always felt (rightly or wrongly) that Genesis we're trying to hoodwink their loyal fanbase into accepting an overt love ballad by making it t o o l o n g... . .

  9. #59
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    Re: More official Trick tour releases: Absolutely! Probably my favourite tour to collect, gotta love the rarities like Entangled and White Mountain. And what an odd little period it was when you had Mike and Steve introducing songs.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ground and Sky's Ghost View Post
    .....but the one line that no one seems to get is "When old Mother Goose stops, and they're out for 23". What the heck does that mean?
    I originally thought the line was:

    "When old Mother Goose stops, her oufit's red and green"

    Which made sense to me.

    And also I heard;

    "The rhyme on time is mine, all mine all mine.....
    Five past nine."

    Which also seemed not only logical, but more clever than the correct lyric.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Adinfinitum, I'm all in favor of more official Trick tour releases! Regarding YOSW (again, sorry), my main beef (besides that good awful Rhodes break) is the length; if it were the length of a single 3 or 4 minutes, I could abide it. It would've made room for something else to be added to the W&W album. And I could probably better enjoy it for what it is. As a "epic," it's a failure. I always felt (rightly or wrongly) that Genesis we're trying to hoodwink their loyal fanbase into accepting an overt love ballad by making it t o o l o n g... . .
    Agreed with everything here. It doesn't merit its length.

    As for 'more official Trick tour releases', even one would be more than there already is. It's just been a few tracks here and there. But I think perhaps the boat has been missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Agreed with everything here. It doesn't merit its length.

    As for 'more official Trick tour releases', even one would be more than there already is. It's just been a few tracks here and there. But I think perhaps the boat has been missed.
    Yeah, what has been officially released (audio-only)? Cinema Show, IT/Watcher, and White Mountain. Isnt that all? I would assume they're sitting on some killer '76 muiltracks from the European tour.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Though I'm kind of surprised that Hackett would refer to Batman and Superman
    <THAT guy>Batman and Tarzan.</THAT guy>
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    Well, it could have been worse. There's a ghastly Mike and the Mechanics-style MOR arrangement of YOSW with Paul Carrack on vocals by, um, Steve Hackett! It's on the first Genesis Revisited album, of course.
    I always thought that was Steve slyly taking the mickey out of how Mike's songwriting and arrangements evolved. "Huh huh! If he did that song now it would sound like THIS! Haw haw..."

    For all the bad rap "Special Way" and "Wot Gorilla" get, I actually think the "meh" song on that album is "Afterglow." I mean, it's okay, I get into it when I listen to it, but that's only because I consider it a coda to "Unquiet Slumbers/Quiet Earth." But on its own, like on "Seconds Out," it just sort of lays there, kind of simple, slow, with Steve just playing a simple languid guitar line and the rest of it plodding along. Like I said, it's a million times better than, say, "Who Dunnit," but I don't think it measures up to all the great stuff on the rest of the album.
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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasKDye View Post
    For all the bad rap "Special Way" and "Wot Gorilla" get, I actually think the "meh" song on that album is "Afterglow." I mean, it's okay, .

    There's a bit on the DVD interviews where Tony denies it's close to "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas," but it kinda is.

  16. #66
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    If "Afterglow" didn't build, I might agree with you. But it does, so I don't.
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  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Yup on both counts... Though I'm kind of surprised that Hackett would refer to Batman and Superman, when Biggles was the British hero of those decades
    Biggles was on "Thick as a Brick". Steve didn't want to mess with Mr A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Yeah, what has been officially released (audio-only)? Cinema Show, IT/Watcher, and White Mountain. Isnt that all? I would assume they're sitting on some killer '76 muiltracks from the European tour.
    Entangled is on the Archive 2 boxed set. Where is a live White Mountain from the Trick tour officially released?

    Quote Originally Posted by bRETT View Post
    There's a bit on the DVD interviews where Tony denies it's close to "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas," but it kinda is.
    He says that when he first wrote it, he was worried that it sounded too much like "Have Yourself..." but when listening to that song, he felt it was different enough to get away with it. Funny thing is, when John Wetton sang it with Steve Hackett, he remarked later that it reminded him of "Have Yourself..."!
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    If "Afterglow" didn't build, I might agree with you. But it does, so I don't.
    I will admit the building helps, and the power and strength of Phil and Chester's Zappa-swipe drumming at the end of the "Seconds Out" version count for something. I just wish Steve had soloed at the end of it, maybe. I have a feeling he didn't do that so as not to invite "Supper's Ready" comparisons.
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasKDye View Post
    the power and strength of Phil and Chester's Zappa-swipe drumming at the end of the "Seconds Out" version count for something.
    With the drum part Phil 'borrowed' from Zappa's "More Trouble Every Day" from Roxy And Elsewhere.
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  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by SongForAmerica View Post

    Wind and Wuthering is my favorite Genesis album, followed by A Trick of the Tail: excellent music and excellent lyrics. It's amusing that the band went to pieces not when Peter Gabriel left but when Steve Hackett did.
    Trick is my favorite, and Wind is high in my rankings, albeit definitely behind SEBTP and maybe a few others depending on mood. But, it's amusing that you think the band "went to pieces" after Hackett left. LMFAO. Actually, it would have been even funnier if you said it went to "bits"....
    Last edited by DocProgger; 03-25-2018 at 06:33 PM.

  22. #72
    I don't think "Your Own Special Way" is too long, nor do I think it's trying to be an epic. The length and delicacy of the instrumental interlude give the recapitulation of the main song--"What mean the dreams, night after night?"--greater weight and emotional impact when it arrives.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Adinfinitum View Post



    I once read that Tony was not a huge fan of BOTR at the time of W&W, but after letting it rippen "on the vine" over time so to speak (20 years) realized it a gem. Shame he didn't realize it at the of W&W because SH may not have left.



    Steve's W&W tour was a real treat. Shows that he loves Tony's and Mike's songs as mich as his own. Wished Mike/Tony/Phil felt the same back in 1976-77.
    Your spin on Hackett's leaving is a bit unfair. Hackett left because he was frustrated and insistent that he get a clear 25% of the album tracks no matter what. That's never how Genesis worked (see The Lamb for obvious example), and was not going to work going forward. It was a democratic band which tried to reach consensus on what tracks fit best on the album. They gave Hackett the freedom to be the first to put out a solo album and still be in the band. The problem there was he used up some good tunes doing that, and thus didn't have a whole lot beyond BOTR to contribute to W&W. And as someone mentioned, Hackett was always a stronger player than as a composer--he's always been a little hit and miss on his solo compositions.

    As far as live track choices on the tour, I've never heard that they didn't play BOTR on the Wind tour because Banks didn't like it--would love to see a source on that. Hindsight is 20/20, but they did do Steve's Inside and Out on that tour. They did do Quiet Earth.
    Again, Steve's main contribution to Genesis is his awesome playing.

    Hackett primarily left because he didn't want to work within the confines of a band with several other strong writers, and he wanted more freedom which a solo artist had. His choice. The irony is that had he waited a few more years, he could have done his solo albums and still stayed with the band, as the other 3 did.

  24. #74
    I agree that YOSW was way too long, tepid and slow for a ballad. They would have been better off marketing Afterglow as the hit on that album.
    Re Afterglow, I think it's an incredible awesome tune, the buildup and emotion is signature Genesis. But I also agree with the view that the studio version pales in comparison to the live versions. The live versions were always much more powerful and emotional, with those great rolling tom drum fills and Phil's vocals much more powerful live. I thought it always worked best in the medleys following Quiet Earth and the various Cage medleys. At virtually every one of the 10 Genesis concerts I went to, I always got goosebumps during 1) Suppers Ready (Apocalypse in 9/8 to end) 2) Los Endos and 3) at the end of Afterglow.
    Last edited by DocProgger; 03-25-2018 at 03:46 PM.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangram View Post
    It is a love song, I feel the arrangement suits the song better than on W&W. That one seems like they didn't know how to do a simple song and over did it. As pointed out earlier, its too long as the solo doesn't fit the song. YMMV
    I agree. I like the Hackett Revisited version better. Shipwrecked off of CAS now reminds me of YOSW--all the Rutherford earmarks.

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