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Thread: The Impact of Classical Music on Rock

  1. #1

    The Impact of Classical Music on Rock

    While Classical Music has been in decline for decades, the once culturally powerful and popular genre of high minded music has still been having an impact upon contemporary music and musicians.

    What have been your most inspiring fusions, renditions or works of classical and rock music exploration?

    Some have obviously worked liked Yes' "Awaken" or Renaissance' "Prologue".

    Others have been hit or miss such as Deep Purple's Concerto for Rock Band and Orchestra.

    Some have simply been trivialized such as Metallica or GnR with a backing symphony.
    Last edited by Skullhead; 03-17-2018 at 02:21 PM.

  2. #2


    Last edited by Skullhead; 03-17-2018 at 02:19 PM.

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  4. #4
    KrimsonCat MissKittysMom's Avatar
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    I think the subtext is rapidly becoming text.

  5. #5
    KrimsonCat MissKittysMom's Avatar
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    I think the subtext is rapidly becoming text.

  6. #6
    Classical music is not in decline.

    Some other examples of classical music influencing rock and pop:


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarebird View Post
    Classical music is not in decline.
    I was gonna say, I wasn't aware is "in decline" either. I mean, how does one rate such things in the first place? Classical music composers and performers don't really aspire to the same kind of mainstream success that rock, pop, R&B, etc performers do. I mean, I'm sure at least some of them seek to be accepted by the classical music cognoscenti, but it's tempered with the interest of doing something "artistic", rather than just making a lot of money making music.

    There's certainly lots of composers still composing "classical" music, and there's people still performing both old and new pieces. OK, so a lot of classical music listeners to tend be resistant to "new stuff", but then so are rock music fans, generally speaking.

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    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    I dont see any new prog bands from the last 10 years being inspired by classical music. They are mostly listening to each other.
    Perhaps Yugen...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I was gonna say, I wasn't aware is "in decline" either. I mean, how does one rate such things in the first place? Classical music composers and performers don't really aspire to the same kind of mainstream success that rock, pop, R&B, etc performers do. I mean, I'm sure at least some of them seek to be accepted by the classical music cognoscenti, but it's tempered with the interest of doing something "artistic", rather than just making a lot of money making music.

    There's certainly lots of composers still composing "classical" music, and there's people still performing both old and new pieces. OK, so a lot of classical music listeners to tend be resistant to "new stuff", but then so are rock music fans, generally speaking.
    And there are new crossovers between classical and other genres.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    I dont see any new prog bands from the last 10 years being inspired by classical music. They are mostly listening to each other.
    Perhaps Yugen...
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    Last edited by Mascodagama; 03-17-2018 at 03:55 PM.
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  12. #12
    The problem with Deep Purple's Concerto is that it was pretty much rock band, symphony, rock band, symphony, etc. They didn't perform together. I prefer their song April anyway, although I think that was the same sort of thing, the symphony didn't perform with the band at all. The Moody Blues did it better with Days of Future Passed.

    Zappa incorporated a lot of classical music into his works, whether he was writing rock, jazz or classical. See for instance Strictly Genteel or Holiday in Berlin. He also stole from Holst's Jupiter inserting the main melody as an instrumental bit in Call Any Vegetable.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    There's certainly lots of composers still composing "classical" music, and there's people still performing both old and new pieces. OK, so a lot of classical music listeners to tend be resistant to "new stuff", but then so are rock music fans, generally speaking.
    Classical music died as a popular form around the mid-20th Century when composers starting writing for each other rather than the listeners. It became an academic exercise in Mathematics to prove that Composer A was better than Composer B. Were they jealous that visual artists could convey abstracts while they were tied to a formal system? I'm not sure, but it was a rebellion against the system seemingly for rebellion's sake.

    I've said for a long time that there is a reason the human brain is tuned to hear certain sounds as pleasant and others as unpleasant. Go back to prehistory and you'll see the reason. Unpleasant or dissonant sounds were signs of danger. An animal's roar, thunder, rocks falling -- all signs to be wary or to run. Natural selection took care of those people who didn't make that connection and what you have left is a population that naturally gravitates towards sounds that are pleasing.

    I keep hearing that all one needs to do is be trained to understand dissonance and that will unlock its beauty. No, it won't. It'll unlock your ability to comprehend it the way you would a Mathematical formula or computer program, but it won't suddenly make it beautiful. Why is it that a child recognizes certain music as more pleasant than another? That child has no formal training and hasn't been indoctrinated into any system. Play Mozart, Beethoven, Bach or Tchaikovsky to that child and they will more often than not respond to it positively.

    Classical music is dead as a popular form because of the composers and critics who champion their own pomposity.
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  14. #14
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    ^ What he said.

    You can hear proof of this on any classical radio station. At least in the US and UK, the playlist includes nothing newer than the early 20th century. Maybe this is different elsewhere in the world, but I doubt it.
    Last edited by Tom; 03-17-2018 at 11:48 PM.
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  15. #15
    I doubt it’s a very popular opinion, but I find some of the orchestrations on Days of Future Passed to be terrible, evoking less a feel of classical music, and more a feeling of cheesy, generic 1950s “happy” music of the type heard in the background of theme parks, family restaurants and dated educational/industrial films.
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  16. #16
    All-night hippo at diner Tom's Avatar
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    ^ Sad but true. Even in the '90s, reading the hyperventilating liner notes for that album made me cringe. The album has not aged well, but better than the promotional material!
    ... “there’s a million ways to learn” (which there are, by the way), but ironically, there’s a million things to eat, I’m just not sure I want to eat them all. -- Jeff Berlin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    Classical music died as a popular form around the mid-20th Century when composers starting writing for each other rather than the listeners. It became an academic exercise in Mathematics to prove that Composer A was better than Composer B. Were they jealous that visual artists could convey abstracts while they were tied to a formal system? I'm not sure, but it was a rebellion against the system seemingly for rebellion's sake.

    I've said for a long time that there is a reason the human brain is tuned to hear certain sounds as pleasant and others as unpleasant. Go back to prehistory and you'll see the reason. Unpleasant or dissonant sounds were signs of danger. An animal's roar, thunder, rocks falling -- all signs to be wary or to run. Natural selection took care of those people who didn't make that connection and what you have left is a population that naturally gravitates towards sounds that are pleasing.

    I keep hearing that all one needs to do is be trained to understand dissonance and that will unlock its beauty. No, it won't. It'll unlock your ability to comprehend it the way you would a Mathematical formula or computer program, but it won't suddenly make it beautiful. Why is it that a child recognizes certain music as more pleasant than another? That child has no formal training and hasn't been indoctrinated into any system. Play Mozart, Beethoven, Bach or Tchaikovsky to that child and they will more often than not respond to it positively.

    Classical music is dead as a popular form because of the composers and critics who champion their own pomposity.
    Ever hear any Classical Minimalism? It certainly can have its flaws, but excessive dissonance isn't one of them. Many of the seminal Minimalist works - Glass's Koyaanisqatsi score, Reich's Music for 18 Musicians, Adams's Harmonielehre, for example - are quite listenable and even pleasant-sounding. Not all Minimalism, of course, shares those qualities. Many pieces seem to value logical rigor over musicality, rather like the Serialist works you're complaining about. But their weakness tends toward monotonous repetition, rather than unrelenting harshness.

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    Member Socrates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    I keep hearing that all one needs to do is be trained to understand dissonance and that will unlock its beauty. No, it won't. It'll unlock your ability to comprehend it the way you would a Mathematical formula or computer program, but it won't suddenly make it beautiful.
    Yes, it will. Just speaking from my own experience.

    Where would rock music be without dissonance, distortion and noise? That is what gives it its power and, yes, beauty.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    Ever hear any Classical Minimalism? It certainly can have its flaws, but excessive dissonance isn't one of them. Many of the seminal Minimalist works - Glass's Koyaanisqatsi score, Reich's Music for 18 Musicians, Adams's Harmonielehre, for example - are quite listenable and even pleasant-sounding. Not all Minimalism, of course, shares those qualities. Many pieces seem to value logical rigor over musicality, rather like the Serialist works you're complaining about. But their weakness tends toward monotonous repetition, rather than unrelenting harshness.
    I should have stated that there are exceptions to my overall opinion. I like Steve Reich quite a bit. I also like the occasional Philip Glass piece although I find him more homogeneous and monotonous than Reich. Other minimalists do not stay in my head at all even after multiple listens.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Socrates View Post
    Yes, it will. Just speaking from my own experience.

    Where would rock music be without dissonance, distortion and noise? That is what gives it its power and, yes, beauty.
    Dissonance within a framework of overall harmony is not a bad thing. Multi-part vocal harmonies that work when all the pieces are present rather than just a few are an example. However, it can't be dissonance for its own sake or to demand that the listener accept it as harmonically pleasing when it isn't. For example, Japanese Noisecore is not a musical experience, it is an endurance test.
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  21. #21
    Boo! walt's Avatar
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    Perhaps a thread on the impact of Indian classical music(Hindustani and Carnatic) on rock(and other) music might be of interest.There is no shortage of forward looking musicians in various genres who claim Indian music as a nourishing, inspiring influence.
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  22. #22
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    Classical music died as a popular form around the mid-20th Century when composers starting writing for each other rather than the listeners. It became an academic exercise in Mathematics to prove that Composer A was better than Composer B. Were they jealous that visual artists could convey abstracts while they were tied to a formal system? I'm not sure, but it was a rebellion against the system seemingly for rebellion's sake.

    I've said for a long time that there is a reason the human brain is tuned to hear certain sounds as pleasant and others as unpleasant. Go back to prehistory and you'll see the reason. Unpleasant or dissonant sounds were signs of danger. An animal's roar, thunder, rocks falling -- all signs to be wary or to run. Natural selection took care of those people who didn't make that connection and what you have left is a population that naturally gravitates towards sounds that are pleasing.

    I keep hearing that all one needs to do is be trained to understand dissonance and that will unlock its beauty. No, it won't. It'll unlock your ability to comprehend it the way you would a Mathematical formula or computer program, but it won't suddenly make it beautiful. Why is it that a child recognizes certain music as more pleasant than another? That child has no formal training and hasn't been indoctrinated into any system. Play Mozart, Beethoven, Bach or Tchaikovsky to that child and they will more often than not respond to it positively.

    Classical music is dead as a popular form because of the composers and critics who champion their own pomposity.
    No offense but please elaborate on how classical music is "dead" when there are more professional orchestras performing today and recordings now than there ever was in the history of music. Classical music has never been so alive.

    Also, to label dissonance (which covers a spectrum much larger and broader than we can possibly get into here) as non legitimate is also equally ridiculous.

    Your Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach theory is also not 100% true. I happen to teach music for a living, and I have played 20th century music for 4th graders, average age of 9 (including Ligeti, Xenakis, Shostakovitch, Ives, and more) and have had kids describe and write about their experience of listening, and many of these students have responded quite positively and enthusiastically, and I would argue that some find that particular music more interesting than the three big Germans in many areas including texture, tonal color, instrumental timbre, etc. If children are given some listening guidelines and a brief introduction on HOW and WHAT to listen for in contemporary classical music, they are actually very open-minded, and I would argue much more so than many adults are. This cannot be debated because I've done it, and I continue to do it.

    You obviously have a bone to pick with so-called dissonance, which is utterly ridiculous since dissonance has been prevalent in music since at least Hildegard von Bingen, whose music dates from 1098-1179.

    If I have misunderstood you, then I apologize in advance.
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  23. #23
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    Dissonance within a framework of overall harmony is not a bad thing. Multi-part vocal harmonies that work when all the pieces are present rather than just a few are an example. However, it can't be dissonance for its own sake or to demand that the listener accept it as harmonically pleasing when it isn't. For example, Japanese Noisecore is not a musical experience, it is an endurance test.
    Dude, when did you write the book on "The Definitive Guide to Harmonically Pleasing Music"? I mean seriously. I've played in more orchestras and have been to exposed to more classical repertoire than you could ever possibly imagine in pursuing both my Bachelors and Masters in Music, and my experiences have been such that dissonance CAN be pleasing and CAN be actually beautiful.

    How is Japanese Noisecore not a musical experience? So the musicians involved in performing along with the audience who love and appreciate the experience of that music are, what, wrong? Really? How so? Who is going to break the news to them? You?
    If it isn't Krautrock, it's krap.

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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    If I have misunderstood you, then I apologize in advance.
    I have no formal training in music except for the past 50 or so years of listening. Because of that reason, I can't convey what I mean in technical terms. It's entirely probably that I mean one thing and the words I'm using mean something much more specific to a person with training.

    Without using any technical terms, I'll put it this way. If a piece of music sounds like a car crash or as if a person is playing the instrument with their ass, it doesn't sound that good. Can someone train themselves to appreciate it? Probably. I can probably train myself to accept mustard as a taste that should go in my mouth, but I doubt I will like it as much as I did chocolate from the get-go. I tend to like what sticks in my head no matter the composer or era. I like some Shostakovitch and Ives and even some Ligeti, but none of it really sticks in my head on first listen the way the "big Germans" do. I tell you what did stick in my head on first listen, Howard Hanson's Second Symphony. Is that because it's the "Romantic" and I like that style of music most? Maybe. But that's 20th Century music that works for me.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
    If a piece of music sounds like a car crash or as if a person is playing the instrument with their ass, it doesn't sound that good.
    You're confusing stuff that's out on the bleeding edge, stuff that's experimental and pushing at the very definition of "music", with the 20th-Century mainstream. Or, more accurately, 20th-Century mainstreams, since there are half-a-dozen current musical threads going on in composition: Minimalist, Neo-Romantic, remnants of the postwar Serialist wave, Third Stream and various other rapprochements with popular music, combiners of everything like John C Adams, and more. Much of that really noisy sonic exploration you cite consists quite literally of experiments, and experiments, by their nature, often fail. They may push the mainstream toward or away from certain directions, but most of them don't become it.

    Here's something quite current. This guy, Andy Akiho, seems to be one of today's hot composers - gets lots of commissions from orchestras and chamber groups. I don't know what "school" he belongs to; he's a Japanese-American from South Carolina, lives in NYC, seems to have an interest in pop music, and is trained as a percussionist with experience in marching bands, as a jazzer, and as a steel-pan virtuoso. Which latter instrument he plays in the video. And I think he may have written the piece for that specific singer and her unusual voice; she sounds perfect in the part and other singers I've heard don't.



    Fay Wang | soprano
    Gina Izzo | flute
    Isabel Kim | clarinet
    Jeffrey Zeigler | cello
    Erika Dohi | piano
    Candy Chiu | vibraphone
    Ian David Rosenbaum | percussion
    Andy Akiho | steel pan
    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 03-18-2018 at 10:55 AM.

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