FEATURED ALBUM: Genesis - Nursery Cryme

[Zappathustra]

. I don't think the quality of the discussion requires that everyone justify their taste...

But the quality of the discussion is what we make of it, and why do we hang around here if not for the high quality of discussion? Just because someone prompted you and questioned your statement, you had to search deeper to see what is troubling you with the Hare, you had to articulate your dislike into words, and a couple of other people jumped in and provided their own opinions and information that we didn't know about. So we all learnt something, and that's a good thing, that's why we are here and spend our time and energy on this place. Right?

As for the Hare, I consider it an organic part of the whole and never had a problem with it. But even if I had a problem, I would never go as far as saying that it ruins my whole listening experience of Passion Play. It is a flawed record anyway but I still consider it a masterpiece, because of its immense ambition and its moments of pure genius. But that's my take on art: I prefer fragments of extra-terrestrial genius than flawless, earthly artifacts.

[LeFrog]

But the quality of the discussion is what we make of it, and why do we hang around here if not for the high quality of discussion? Just because someone prompted you and questioned your statement, you had to search deeper to see what is troubling you with the Hare, you had to articulate your dislike into words, and a couple of other people jumped in and provided their own opinions and information that we didn't know about. So we all learnt something, and that's a good thing, that's why we are here and spend our time and energy on this place. Right?

Agreed.
It's just that I felt pressured to explain why I felt it was silly and out of place, when in fact even those who don't mind "Hare" admit it's silly and somewhat at odds with the rest of the music, so there's not much to explain there really.
Why do I feel that humour doesn't belong in music (to misquote Zappa)? Now that is something I can't really explain but it would make an interesting discussion of its own, as I know many will disagree.

[Trane]

In the context of a piece of religious satire titled A Passion Play, "The Hare" is by no means pointless (though it is quite explicitly and intentionally silly). Some historical context:

The inclusion of "The Hare" follows the precedent of interspersing the story of Christ's sacrifice with broad comic interludes. The story itself is not pointless; it is a fable with a simple moral: Don't look to leaders or gurus for enlightenment (spiritual vision, or spectacles). Rather, look within yourself, because you carry your vision with you all along, like a spare pair.

When a concept needs too much explaining, it's a failure, IMHO. The Lamb, TFTO and APP needed (a lot of) explanations, while The Wall, Brick, Dark Side (and even Animals) didn't , neither did Epping Forest and SEBTP as a whole (Supper's ready isn't).
2112 is evident, but Cygnus X-2 isn't

This was in my first bulk of Tull albums, bought back when I was 17 years old together with Stand Up and Minstrel. All three of these still have a special place in my heart.

Stand Up , Aqualung and Brick were within my firqst 15 albums bought (well Stand Up was my dad's)... and they're still my fave three Tull.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

LP - I don't know if anyone's bothered to explain it, but "The Musical Box" is basically the second part of a story, the first part of which would be narrated on stage. It begins with little Cynthia whacking her little friend(whose name I cannot recall)'s head off with a croquet mallet. The song is told by that friend, who appears as a ghost when Cynthia opens her musical box - which plays, yes, "Old King Cole." The lyrics tell how he reappears and ages quickly, seeking to "know [her] flesh."

It's actually a pretty scary horror story.

[Zappathustra]

Why do I feel that humour doesn't belong in music (to misquote Zappa)? Now that is something I can't really explain but it would make an interesting discussion of its own, as I know many will disagree.

D. N.A.? Cultural background? Me on the other hand, in literature and in music, if there's no humour it's very probable that it won't really touch me. This is why I love Zappa and his offspring in the European continent: Canterburies, Gentle Giant, Samla Mammas Manna, Gong,
Albert Marcoeur etc.

And, to return to the topic, I think there is plenty of excellent humour in Genesis' stories about Harrolds, Hogweeds, Epping Forests etc.

[Facelift]

I have to say this is the best and most elaborate defence of "Hare" I have ever read. There is no doubt there is a purpose to its presence on the album. I only wish that knowing this could make it more bearable to listen to.

The counter to the counter, with all due respect to ScrotSciss, would be that while all he says may be true, it is nevertheless a burden on repeated listening experiences because it is "message" art, whereas the rest of the album is a regular musical performance, like any of the other Tull albums.

In other words, while the above explanation for the purpose of the Hare legitimizes its purpose on the album (to the extent that the section effectively fulfills its function as this message - which I think that it does), the section doesn't work as anything more than that. Which may have been fine the first few time someone played it in the 1970s (when debate about the proper function of a rock band was still a thing) but now isn't needed. Once the message is received, it doesn't need to be revisited, and in that sense I think it does disrupt the experience of listening to the album, which is not at all so utilitarian and functions as an album of music like any other Tull made in the 70s. If the message of the Hare was important to the band, I wish they could have done so with something in the gatefuld of the album as visual art. I think the message could have been delivered just as effectively that way, and then we wouldn't have to deal with skipping it on the record.

It's not a perfect analogy, but it's kind of like Whodunnit on Genesis' Abacab album. I used to hate it, but appreciated it more when I learned the context of what the band was trying to do with it. But that still didn't make it something that I want to hear 9 times out of 10 when I play the album - it disrupts the experience of listening to the rest of the album for me (and numerous others, from what I've read).

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

LP - I don't know if anyone's bothered to explain it, but "The Musical Box" is basically the second part of a story, the first part of which would be narrated on stage. It begins with little Cynthia whacking her little friend(whose name I cannot recall)'s head off with a croquet mallet. The song is told by that friend, who appears as a ghost when Cynthia opens her musical box - which plays, yes, "Old King Cole." The lyrics tell how he reappears and ages quickly, seeking to "know [her] flesh."

It's actually a pretty scary horror story.

ok... thanx bro! that might help me get it next time I hear it

[moecurlythanu]

Musical Box: Cynthia Jane de Blaise Williams and little Henry, if memory serves.

[DocProgger]

So true re the live versions of Musical Box. Those live versions which have all of Gabriel's intros (which would vary a bit), complete with his sound effects are priceless. Those early BBC recordings mentioned earlier are fantastic. The cutting off of Henry's head with the croquet mallet--"thwack........then Gabriel whistles as the head flies off to the ground" etc.--are part of the overall experience of the tune. Same of course with those priceless Suppers Ready "worm" stories, which also varied. Music can't be analyzed only by reading a few words on paper in a vacuum, which I stated before.

And as much as I like the studio MBox, that tune just kicks ass live. The loud/soft contrasts in dynamics; the build up of quiet tension which then explodes into the instrumental; the back and forth guitar vs keyboard licks; are what makes early Genesis so special--no group was better at it. That's why it's cool to watch the tribute band Musical Box do that material live--you see the whole visual presentation. And seeing the incomparable Steve Hackett play that tune live in his Genesis Revisited shows--you see how special that tune is to him.

[mkeneally]

Since this is a Genesis thread I'll just say that I actually really like "The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" purely as music. The orchestration nails the "children's record" vibe, but the little melodies are really lovely to me beyond any humorous intent. Wouldn't be APP without it. (Dig the Hare film also - man I would have loved to see that tour.)

It's no more out of place in its context than "Harold The Barrel"!

[alucard]

If Collins had tried to carry on a Gabrielesque theatrical presentation, he would have been accused of being a copy. The words "pale imitation" would have been trotted out, whether warranted or not. It would have been a terrible strategy moving forward. The media already thought Phil sounded like Gabriel due to his extensive background vocals on the albums. Would the fans have accepted it? Some would, some wouldn't, but the band would have painted themselves into a corner and the music would have become secondary in the public's mind. That's something the remaining members were bristling at before Gabriel left.

I actually quite like the soulfull voice of Collins and I agree with you that it was a good choice not to copy the Gabriel style. It's just that my personal preference goes to Gabriels theatrical (and a bit more obscure )side . Btw in an interview Collins said that he felt always a bit awkward to sing the more obscure Genesis lyrics and that he prefers straight forward down to earth lyrics. I stopped going to Genesis concerts after 77 but I saw nearly all Gabriel tours and I remain a fan of his music and his visual ideas.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9195 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Guitarplyrjvb]

Since this is a Genesis thread I'll just say that I actually really like "The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles" purely as music. The orchestration nails the "children's record" vibe, but the little melodies are really lovely to me beyond any humorous intent. Wouldn't be APP without it. (Dig the Hare film also - man I would have loved to see that tour.)

It's no more out of place in its context than "Harold The Barrel"!

I agree with this! When I was a kid, it was like having to eat your peas! Gradually, though, it became an essential part of APP. The orchestration is lovely and the segue to the second half of the work is beautiful. Now, I can't imagine APP without it!

Oh, and I love Nursery Cryme!

[GuitarGeek]

. Btw in an interview Collins said that he felt always a bit awkward to sing the more obscure Genesis lyrics and that he prefers straight forward down to earth lyrics.

I remember him saying something like "How do you sing the word undinal?", which occurs in Firth Of Fifth.

[Progatron]

I remember him saying something like "How do you sing the word undinal?", which occurs in Firth Of Fifth.

He's also cited "Bread bin" from All In A Mouse's Night as being an impossible lyric to sing with any kind of feeling, and "Sheets of double glazing/nylon sheets and blankets" from Domino. Every one of these examples comes from the pen of Tony Banks!

[firth5th]

duty_calls.jpg

[Vic2012]

[Halmyre]

I remember him saying something like "How do you sing the word undinal?", which occurs in Firth Of Fifth.

Hmm, why rag on "undinal" and not, say, "mum tiddly washing"?

[Monet]

After Anthony Phillips and John Mayhew were no longer the members of Genesis, a suitable replacement was sought. Engaging the virtuoso drummer Phil Collins, who incidentally ended up in Genesis and not in Yes while looking for a job, was not a difficult decision because of his musicality. When choosing a guitarist, on the other hand, it was not so easy. So they first made several appearances as a quartet, which for Tony Banks meant having to learn polyphonic keyboard playing. After that they had tried a certain Mick Barnard on guitar for about two months, but he turned out to be unsuitable in the long term. When Steve Hackett finally joined Genesis, the classic line-up was together, who were responsible for five extremely important sympho-rock albums until Peter Gabriel left, although the verifiable zones of influence of "Nursery Cryme" were initially limited to England, Belgium and Italy.
The clear highlight of "Nursery Cryme" is the ingenious "The Musical Box", whose atmospheric density remains unique. I think the rest of this album is also quite well done. As there are the humorous (what they never had on "Trespass") "Harold the Barrel", or a beautiful short ballad "For Absent Friends" with Collins as lead singer and pleasant "Harlequin". Quite amazing "Seven Stones" is reminiscent of "Trespass" in its fragility and slight pathos, while "The Return of the Giant Hogweed" shows real class by offering the grandiose vocals by Gabriel and several excellent instrumental passages. At the end of "Nursery Cryme" there is "The Fountain of Salmacis", a mellotron-heavy, driving piece with mythological textual borrowings. The quirky Victorian orientation of this magnificent record is illustrated by the cover image by Paul Whitehead, which shows a croquet game with human heads; probably Whitehead's best illustration ever.
Overall, a really great album that, despite some weaknesses in production (which anyway were removed on the remastered version), already shows all the characteristics of this groundbreaking creative period of Genesis: lyrical moments by the guitar duo Hackett / Rutherford, distinctive, melodious- magical solos and unusual guitar sounds by Hackett, stylish, well-thought-out Mellotron, organ and piano playing by Tony Banks, Phil Collins' powerful, but at the same time sensitive drums, and last but not least Peter Gabriel, who performs his dreamy-bizarre lyrics as a charismatic and versatile singer.
Fifty years after its release, "Nursery Cryme" is still an essential & timeless masterpiece of the original English Symphonic rock movement and a true gem of Progressive music in general that every prog-head must have.

[Flightwave]

I love this entire album but my favorite song is “Seven Stones.” Tony’s playing is gorgeous.

[chalkpie]

Is this the ones with "Invisibles Touches" on its?

[Progatron]

Is this the ones with "Invisibles Touches" on its?

Nope. That's on So Congo Required (In Your Wardrobe).

[moecurlythanu]

I love this entire album but my favorite song is “Seven Stones.”

Wot he said.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Wot

You simply don't/won't get it.

a suitable replacement was sought. Engaging the virtuoso drummer Phil Collins, who incidentally ended up in Genesis and not in Yes [...] extremely important sympho-rock

It's absolyt imprekitel sympho. Virtuosic intelektual komplexi Tex-Mex sexy.

[Tangram]

He's also cited "Bread bin" from All In A Mouse's Night as being an impossible lyric to sing with any kind of feeling, and "Sheets of double glazing/nylon sheets and blankets" from Domino. Every one of these examples comes from the pen of Tony Banks!

I’ll give PC “undinal” as tough to get behind but "Sheets of double glazing, help to minimize the cold, only foreign city sirens can come thru...” is an excellent lyric. It sets a picture of the scene. Always a fav of mine

[moecurlythanu]

I’ll give PC “undinal” as tough to get behind but "Sheets of double glazing, help to minimize the cold, only foreign city sirens can come thru...” is an excellent lyric. It sets a picture of the scene. Always a fav of mine

"I love you like China" Nuff said. Game. Set. Match.