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Thread: Steven Wilson "To the Bone" tour 2018

  1. #376
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    ^Joking aside, that seems to be the defensive position I hear with a lot of these 'prog goes pop' attempts. It's always down to a possible snobbery agenda...or the passive-aggressive 'well I have a wide taste in music so I liked it'.

    'Straw man' argument, 100%. 'Permanating' sounded like Coldplay to me...not really the acts he was invoking in the 'speech' he gave which was posted here a while back.

  2. #377
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    I love all SW's previous tunes that are on the poppy side, Stranger By The Minute, Piano Lessons, The Rest Will Flow, Pure Narcotic are all superb for example. I would say that I was a prog fan that had my horizons widened by PT and SW, I just don't like Permanating, its a lame embarrassing song that I could do without.

  3. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    But I've seen people on here who know their 'pop' who still don't like 'Permanating'. What then?
    That's not really relevant to what I was getting at. I thought we were talking about Wilson "lecturing" his audiences about Abba.

    Taste is subjective. I think Permanating is "okay", but it's not one of my favorites.

  4. #379
    I saw him twice on this tour, I thought it was mostly thoroughly excellent. I love barrel loads of pop music, but I’m not that struck on Permanating either, it’s just slightly meh to me, not awful, just not captivating in that way that pure pop is. He talks about Prince, one of my all time favourites too, but he is a million miles from him on this track.

    I do not think he should just stick to the prog, he should go wherever he wants, but there are certain boundaries to what he is comfortable with, and one man cannot be all things to all genres.

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve983 View Post
    I just don't like Permanating, its a lame embarrassing song that I could do without.
    Based on the response at the show I went to you may not be alone. For starters, the crowd didn't all spontaneously break out into disco dancing -- even those not wearing Opeth t-shirts. And when it was over the response was fairly muted. More so than I was expecting, to be honest.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  6. #381
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    Maybe if Steven got two Swedish girls in sexy space costumes to sing Perminating, we would be more open minded to it.

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    those not wearing Opeth t-shirts
    For any 'Stones fans lurking, I'm guessing this is the Wilson equivalent of Keith Richards' 'good to be here, good to be anywhere!' on-stage schtick.

  8. #383
    Permanating is okay as a short poppy track, but it certainly isn't his best in that vein.

    Funny, I took my fiance (who is not a SW fan) to see the show. She does like a lot of modern pop, and she said "This song is just lame."

  9. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Man In The Mountain View Post
    Maybe if Steven got two Swedish girls in sexy space costumes to sing Perminating, we would be more open minded to it.
    Sorry it seems he offended you so. You clearly missed the point.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by marblesmike View Post
    Sorry it seems he offended you so. You clearly missed the point.
    I think you’re offended and missed the point. Everyone else is perfectly fine.

  11. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Scrotum, is that you?
    Ha-ha, yeah - 'cause that line would just be -so- typical, like! But wait a minute!! Wouldn't that somehow imply that Scrotum might be Wilson?! Albeit perhaps in some kind of disguise?! Oh, no! Then we'd have to put Wilson on ignore!

    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  12. #387
    I went to 2 Wilson shows on this tour, back to back nights (Vic and Pabst), so I could catch the two different setlists. The first show I went to I got the Hand Cannot Erase-heavy set. That was fine, except that I had seen 3 shows on the last tour, so although I like most of that album and it is a very powerful story, I had already been there/done that on most of the tunes. The first time I saw the HCE show on the last tour, it was the most powerful because he was for the most part playing the songs in order, the video backdrops were new to me, so there was a logic to the setlist, with the dramatic narrative taking center stage. This time, it was more just a hodge podge of the HCE tunes somewhat out of context, which didn't pack the same emotional wallop. The 2nd show I saw later on the HCE tour was with Ninet singing, and in fact was when Wilson was having the vocal issues, so Ninet sang a good chunk of the tunes solo and with Steven. That was very cool, because I like her voice a lot and she is certainly easy on the eyes, and added a different feeling and a change of pace to some of those same HCE tunes. So the HCE heavy setlist was a bit superfluous for me on this tour, but the closing run of Vermillioncore/Sleep Together/Blackfield/Postcard/Sound of Muzak/Raven was great

    The second night I got the setlist that included Creator..Mastertape/Arriving Somewhere/Lazarus/Heartattack in a Layby!/Even Less. That was a more enjoyable setlist and didn't seem as HCE heavy, the Bone tunes were a bit better, and the highlights for me were Arriving Somewhere and Heartattack (I was disappointed Even Less was not the full band version). So yes, the PT tunes were still the highlights for me. I like much of the To the Bone, but Permanating and Song of I were the low points of both shows for me (Song of Unborn is a good closing tune). And not because I dislike Wilson's "pop side". As others have pointed out, Wilson both with PT and solo has had a slew of what I would consider great pop songs, some of which have been mentioned, but I would certainly add stuff like Shesmovedon, Lightbulb Sun, Trains and Sound of Muzak of course, Lazarus, and from his solo albums, HCE, Drive Home and even Deform to Form a Star, among others.

    The mistake I think Wilson is making on this tour is his overemphasis on highlighting Permanating as an example of his "pop tune side" and his attempt to I guess appeal/explain to the young-ins that he is doing this as a tribute to his pop listening roots. The whole standing up and dance stuff was just overdone and unnecessary, especially since the tune is clearly the weakest or one of the weakest on the album (to me the melody is too much a direct ripoff of Mamma Mia). Steven, we get it, we already know you can write and sing great pop tunes, you've been doing it your whole career, with much better results. There is no need to highlight this one tune so much. Quite frankly, in the process, I think it demeans or trivializes his earlier better pop tunes, whether its done tongue in cheek or not.

    And the whole "this is the last tour I will play at seated venues" thing I certainly hope is a joke or being overdone, because its just plain stupid at this point in his career to alienate a huge portion of his paying audience. When you think of the fact that people travel long distances sometimes to go to these shows, adjust work schedules, and don't want to drive 4 hours to then stand in a queue for another hour to then get a decent place to stand again at the show for another 3 hours, and on top of it people might have legit health reasons why standing for hours on end is not a good idea, its insane to be that insensitive to your core fanbase. At this point in my life, I think I have earned the right to pay a little extra for a nice close damn seat so I can relax and see the show in comfort, unobstructed by a former all state basketball player standing 6 inches in front of me. Wilson needs to understand that there might be legit health reasons (ie knee issues) to not be *forced* to stand for 3 hours if people don't want to, that people are all different heights, and let the flow and momentum of the concert dictate when people stand and sit, and lets leave all this micromanaging of the audience behind. I'm still of the school where you stand for encores if that is the kind of show that warrants it, and to give very selected standing O's when its deserved, and really don't need to be told you can't sit, or "now you should stand". That's where Wilson is miscalculating his audience at this point. Forced artificial enthusiasm really does not work.

    Overall I still think both shows were great and well worth it, the playing was great, the sound and AV aspects were stellar--its just that he's crapping on his own show to some extent with some of this nonsense when he really doesn't need to be.

    Edit--add, the type of songs I would like to hear more of from Wilson, instead of Permanating (aka Mamma Mia) can be found on Disc 2 of that sublime Anesthetize live album, ie that run of tunes Drown with Me/Cheating the Polygraph/Half-Light/Sever. Call it rock, prog or pop, whatever, those are some damn fine tunes.
    Last edited by DocProgger; 05-16-2018 at 10:52 AM.

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    At this point in my life, I think I have earned the right to pay a little extra for a nice close damn seat so I can relax and see the show in comfort, unobstructed by a former all state basketball player standing 6 inches in front of me. Wilson needs to understand that there might be legit health reasons (ie knee issues) to not be *forced* to stand for 3 hours if people don't want to, that people are all different heights, and let the flow and momentum of the concert dictate when people stand and sit, and lets leave all this micromanaging of the audience behind
    Totally agree with that. I have bad knees after 30 years of playing basketball and street hockey for fun, I had to sit down 3 times at the wall by the soundboard just to give them a rest. I like having all seating so that I'm not constantly jostling with people who are finding their friends with a beer in each hand or not trying to be stuck behind guys that could be guards in the NBA. /Go Lakers
    ...or you could love

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    It's not necessarily anything to do with snobbery or closed-mindedness, though. I mean, I know all of ABBA's and the Carpenters' albums/singles, to name two he champions- I certainly don't need anyone to 'educate' me about their brilliance.

    Some people are able to do that kind of pop material, others aren't, and it shows/hurts when they try. There's not really any need for shame or snobbery either way. As Paul Anka had it, that's just the fucking way it is.
    Agreed. I like plenty of pop music, just not either ABBA and the Carpenters. I experienced them (ubiquitously in the case of ABBA) the first time round, and have no wish to go back and repeat the experience. And, yes, I also resent the implication of this criticism that by not getting on this particular bandwagon that there's something wrong with me, as if I don't have agency to make my own choices in terms of musical taste and need to be 'educated'. I really don't - people are free to like what they like and they'll get no criticism from me for whatever their taste runs to, but please also don't assume that my own taste in music is the result of some kind of ideological blinkers which means that music has to fall within a certain aesthetic for me to appreciate it. I like and listen to a lot of different kinds of music, from metal to prog, to stoner, to folk, to funk, to Early Chamber Music to name but a few. I like it all for different reasons, and love hearing new things that fall outside the realm of my previous experience (traditional Chinese music, for example). Sorry if this doesn't fall into the 'tongue in cheek' spirit of Wilson's comments in particular, but to be honest there is a line of argument here that is more than a little bit tiresome, to say the least, whoever articulates it. If that marks me out as 'thin-skinned' then so be it, I'll live with it.


    P.S. Can I reiterate too that I actually like about 95% of To The Bone, including 'Permananting,' which is a pleasant, if inessential, addition to SW's oeuvre. Agreed, however, with whoever above said that Wilson's determination to make this song a key point in his live set simply results in his drawing attention to the fact that it's just not as good as much of the previous poppier elements in his back-catalogue.
    Last edited by kid_runningfox; 05-15-2018 at 11:19 PM.

  15. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    Agreed. I like plenty of pop music, just not either ABBA and the Carpenters. I experienced them (ubiquitously in the case of ABBA) the first time round, and have no wish to go back and repeat the experience. And, yes, I also resent the implication of this criticism that by not getting on this particular bandwagon that there's something wrong with me, as if I don't have agency to make my own choices in terms of musical taste and need to be 'educated'. I really don't - people are free to like what they like and they'll get no criticism from me for whatever their taste runs to, but please also don't assume that my own taste in music is the result of some kind of ideological blinkers which means that music has to fall within a certain aesthetic for me to appreciate it. I like and listen to a lot of different kinds of music, from metal to prog, to stoner, to folk, to funk, to Early Chamber Music to name but a few. I like it all for different reasons, and love hearing new things that fall outside the realm of my previous experience (traditional Chinese music, for example). Sorry if this doesn't fall into the 'tongue in cheek' spirit of Wilson's comments in particular, but to be honest there is a line of argument here that is more than a little bit tiresome, to say the least. If that marks me out as 'thin-skinned' then so be it, I'll live with it.
    It sounds to me like you're taking it personally. This seems to be a common thread among Wilson's most recent critics around these parts... And it's getting old.

  16. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    It sounds to me like you're taking it personally. This seems to be a common thread among Wilson's most recent critics around these parts... And it's getting old.
    I'm really not. And, however 'old' it might be getting to you, I think these points are worth addressing - especially when it appears that not to engage with them is to be confined to the realms of the 'blinkered' and the 'prog-snobs,' though not necessarily by SW himself. THAT I DO take personally, as it represents a judgement on my character and taste in music by people who don't know me, have no idea what I like or why, and engage in lazy reasoning for their own convenience. I don't think that these somewhat smug assumptions should go unchallenged - whoever makes them - and, yes, I equally recognize that there is a lot of dry humour in what SW especially has to say. I'm not generally a critic of Wilson; I think he's made some great music, though I certainly don't think he's the 'prog messiah' he's often painted as these days. If you don't like what I have to say then don't respond, but I absolutely reserve the right to say it

  17. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    This seems to be a common thread among Wilson's most recent critics around these parts... And it's getting old.
    How can it be old around these parts, he just touting this stuff out again on his new tour? Tell Steven it's getting old, and so is he! Hey, it's up to an artist to communicate appropriately with his audience. If many people come out of the show feeling rubbed the wrong way, maybe just maybe, the tongue in the cheek bit isn't working too well.

    For the record, I wasn't at one of his shows this time. But I've heard him say this same stuff in interviews for years and I don't see the comedy in his delivery. Regardless, I like the guy, but he's not always right, and he's not always brilliant. And Porcupine Tree was better.

  18. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    I'm really not. And, however 'old' it might be getting to you, I think these points are worth addressing - especially when it appears that not to engage with them is to be confined to the realms of the 'blinkered' and the 'prog-snobs,' though not necessarily by SW himself. THAT I DO take personally, as it represents a judgement on my character and taste in music by people who don't know me, have no idea what I like or why, and engage in lazy reasoning for their own convenience. I don't think that these somewhat smug assumptions should go unchallenged - whoever makes them - and, yes, I equally recognize that there is a lot of dry humour in what SW especially has to say. I'm not generally a critic of Wilson; I think he's made some great music, though I certainly don't think he's the 'prog messiah' he's often painted as these days. If you don't like what I have to say then don't respond, but I absolutely reserve the right to say it
    Your past comments, in this very thread, about Wilson's "berating" his audience really give the impression that you do take offense to what he has allegedly implied. Surely you can understand why this would look like mixed signals.

    A common complaint (aside from the seating vs. standing thing) has been along the lines of 'how dare Steven Wilson try to lecture me on what pop music is? As if I need to be educated?'

    It comes across as kind of arrogant and quick to take offense, IMO. And that's assuming Wilson was even directing those comments at you to begin with, which he probably wasn't -- he's talking about the prog snobs, which you demonstrably aren't. So I don't really understand what the problem is.

  19. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Man In The Mountain View Post
    How can it be old around these parts, he just touting this stuff out again on his new tour? Tell Steven it's getting old, and so is he! Hey, it's up to an artist to communicate appropriately with his audience. If many people come out of the show feeling rubbed the wrong way, maybe just maybe, the tongue in the cheek bit isn't working too well.

    For the record, I wasn't at one of his shows this time. But I've heard him say this same stuff in interviews for years and I don't see the comedy in his delivery. Regardless, I like the guy, but he's not always right, and he's not always brilliant. And Porcupine Tree was better.
    That's the thing: If that many people were offended by his comments, he wouldn't have them turning up at his shows over and over again.

    Like you said, this is hardly a new thing for him. I've never really agreed with him regarding his view on "modern prog rock" and how he wanted to distance himself from that label in the past, but I still liked a good bit of his music and have continued to listen to it over the years. But some of the comments on this subject have just gotten bizarre, IMO.

  20. #395
    Permanating is an average pop song, at the most. That chromatic bass line is just ... the cheapest trick in the pop book ...

  21. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    That's the thing: If that many people were offended by his comments, he wouldn't have them turning up at his shows over and over again.

    Like you said, this is hardly a new thing for him. I've never really agreed with him regarding his view on "modern prog rock" and how he wanted to distance himself from that label in the past, but I still liked a good bit of his music and have continued to listen to it over the years. But some of the comments on this subject have just gotten bizarre, IMO.
    Everyone bought the tickets months ago and wouldn't know what he was going to play or say. Here in the UK the tour went on sale before TTB was even out. I was disappointed by both the album and the show I saw at the RAH which had poor sound. I doubt whether I will see him again next time.

  22. #397
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    I know a couple of people who've gone to three or four back-to-back shows on this tour, all in different towns. Seems exhausting to me! The one I saw was very good, but enough! Just surprised, not that I've any good reason.

  23. #398
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    My wife and I attended two shows this time 'round, Montreal and Boston. Very different shows as Montreal had a GA standing floor (we were safely ensconced in the balcony, where the sound was fantastic) and had the huge projection screen, vs. Boston where we had nice comfy second row mezzanine seats but sound was meh and stage size permitted only what SW referred to as a "postage stamp" size screen. We enjoyed both shows (we had been at the "heroic" Beacon show for the HCE tour, which I also saw in Albany), but if future shows don't offer seating, we will not be there.

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