MLB 2018

[ronmac]

New thread for the new season.

THREE WEEKS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS REPORT!

[polmico]

Lots of good talk these past few weeks on MLB Now regarding Hall of Fame voting. They convinced me that McGriff, Rolen and Wagner should all be in the Hall.

[Scott Bails]

Hmm....

[ronmac]

I think Mike Mussina deserves a nod.

[polmico]

Hmm....

I'll be brief.

Scott Rolen: Career WAR of 70. OPS+ puts him in top ten (ninth, to be exact) among 3B. Best defensive 3B of his era.
Wagner: 2nd among all pitchers, all time, in run prevention (Mariano is first). Only 180 innings (or two-ish seasons) behind Hoffman (who looks to get in this year or next), but a superior K% and superior run prevention. Hoffman is getting 70% of the vote. Wagner 10%?
McGriff: 492 HRs (easily above 500 had in not been for the strike years), a difference maker in the post-seasons in which he played (.600 in six different series) and a clean player (but all accounts). You can ding him if you want for hanging on to long (though I don't understand that logic). If that's the case, then just examine his peak years and compare him to other sluggers of his era. He's every bit as good.

All of this is, of course, debatable. But you're looking at three players who I think get overlooked because of two factors: inflated numbers era and the inability to stick with one team.

Dig around a bit and look at the numbers and evaluate the context in which they played. If they come up short after doing so, fine. But the "eyeball" test is not always enough.

[polmico]

I think Mike Mussina deserves a nod.

Yes.

[Scott Bails]

But the "eyeball" test is not always enough.

Rolen fails the "eyeball" test, for me. But I understand the argument. I'll have to read more about him.

I have no problem with Wagner or McGriff.

[ronmac]

I think Rolen is borderline.

[DocProgger]

My HOF ballot(if I had one). Keep in mind players can fall off if they don't get at least 5% (See Jim Edmonds falling off after one year for example).

1. Fred McGriff, criminally overlooked and adversely tainted by NOT being a roids abuser, his numbers more than anyone negatively affected by the artificial upsurge in offense while he remained rock steady. McGriff is one of only 23 Hall of Fame eligible players in the history of baseball who came to bat 10,000 times and posted an OPS+ of 134 or greater. Better overall numbers than Jeff Bagwell who was elected. 10 seasons of 30 HR or more. Hurt by bball strike year taking away chance at 500 HR, hurt by playing for a variety of teams and not just one team. Good postseason player also. 493/1550/.284 right in the HOF wheelhouse. 6 top 10 MVP finishes. It will be a true CRIME if he's not elected.

2. Mike Mussina. 100 wins over .500. More top 5 ERA seasons than Glavine and Smoltz, pitched entire career in the steroid and DH era in the difficult hitter friendly AL East. 270 wins just short of 300 automatic benchmark, clutch big game pitcher, decent postseason numbers (3.42). NINE finishes in top 6 of Cy Young voting.

3. Vlad Guerrero. Not connected to steroids. 5 tool player, hit for average and power (.318 w 449 HR, few ever have that high of a power/avg combo). Here is the definition of a Hall of Fame prime: for 11 straight seasons (1998–2008) he received MVP votes or was selected to the All-Star Game while averaging .325 with 35 homers and 112 RBI.

4. Jim Thome. Not connected with roids. 612 HR =automatic for non roids player. Steady player despite lack of true "MVP seasons". .402 OBP/.554 SLG/.956 OPS.(all better than C Jones). OPS+ of 147(better than C Jones).

5. Scott Rolen. Will be greatly overlooked and in danger of falling off ballot, despite being the best fielding 3B of his generation. My vote would go to him at the very least to make sure he gets longer consideration for the Hall since he'll be viewed as a borderline candidate. Some of his stats cited above. 8 GG. From 1997 to 2006 one of premier hitters of the era for Phillies and Cardinals. Key part of MV3 with great Cardinals teams of 2004-2006 (w Pujols, Edmonds).

Players I won't vote for this year:

1. Chipper Jones. Great player no doubt, but not a first ballot HOFer. Falls just short of that lofty plateau. No 3000 hits, no 500 HR. A bit overhyped because 1) his name is Chipper 2) he played for Braves, one team, white guy who had high media friendly profile all career. He will get in but would rather save votes for people like McGriff, Rolen, Mussina who will be overlooked. Very little black ink, 1 MVP. Not a 1st ballot guy.
Never led league in HR.
Never led league in RBI.
Led league in BA once.
Led league in OPS once.
1 MVP, only season he was considered one of the top 3 players in bball.
Not considered a great fielder (no GG).
Very mediocre WS stats considering he played in 3 WS (1 HR, 6 RBI, .273 BA).
Again, clearly not a 1st ballot HOFer. That lofty honor has to be earned with overwhelming no doubt about it stats.
But he will get voted in for the other reasons I stated.




2. Bonds. No roids cheater. I follow Tom Verducci's thinking on this: "I never have and never will vote for players connected to steroid use by public evidence. At no point, rule or no rule, was steroid use acceptable, which is why players went through great lengths to conceal it and continue to do so years later. I understand why some players made the choice. I cannot honor it."

3. Clemens. No, roids cheater, see #2.

4. Sosa, No, roids cheater, see #2.

5. Manny Rameriz. No, roids cheater, see #2.

6. Sheffield. No, roids cheater, see #2.

7. Edgar Martinez. No. DH his whole career. Never played defense to any significant degree. Borderline even if you disregard that. Injury history, missed an average of 33 games a year even though he didn't play defense. Career really not that long, less than 9000 PA. Good hitter when healthy, but not a HOFer.

8. Trevor Hoffman. No, relief pitcher. Mariano will be a no doubter, and I will then re-evaluate RP after his induction. Until then, too many RP who accumulate saves start cluttering the ballot.

9. Wagner, No. See #8.

Schilling, Kent, Walker willing to be swayed by, but no as of now.

[polmico]

Chipper is a prime example of a player who is so singularly defined by one team--and by that team's success--that it increases his HOF resume.

[DocProgger]

Chipper is a prime example of a player who is so singularly defined by one team--and by that team's success--that it increases his HOF resume.

Yep, especially since the number of players who stay with one team their whole career are dwindling and dwindling, when it used to very common in the 50s through 70s. Its like he's getting extra bonus points.

[Scott Bails]

My HOF ballot(if I had one). Keep in mind players can fall off if they don't get at least 10%. (See Jim Edmonds falling off after one year for example).

2. Mike Mussina. 100 wins over .500. More top 5 ERA seasons than Glavine and Smoltz, pitched entire career in the steroid and DH era in the difficult hitter friendly AL East. 270 wins just short of 300 automatic benchmark, clutch big game pitcher, decent postseason numbers (3.42). NINE finishes in top 6 of Cy Young voting.

Wins are a team stat and are a horrible way to evaluate a pitcher.

1. Chipper Jones. Great player no doubt, but not a first ballot HOFer. Falls just short of that lofty plateau.......Not a 1st ballot guy.

Probably the most stupid argument in all of the HoF voting procedure - and that's saying something.

7. Edgar Martinez. No. DH his whole career. Never played defense. Borderline even if you disregard that. Injury history, missed an average of 33 games a year even though he didn't play defense. Career really not that long, less than 9000 PA. Good hitter when healthy, but not a HOFer.

Should have been first-ballot. One of the best hitters of his generation.

8. Trevor Hoffman. No, relief pitcher. Mariano will be a no doubter, and I will then re-evaluate RP after his induction. Until then, too many RP who accumulate saves start cluttering the ballot.

9. Wagner, No. See #8.

I'll never understand the prejudice against relief pitchers. If you're good at what you do, you belong.

Schilling, Kent, Walker willing to be swayed by, but no as of now.

Schilling only gets in with paid admission.

[DocProgger]

Wins are a team stat and are a horrible way to evaluate a pitcher.



Probably the most stupid argument in all of the HoF voting procedure - and that's saying something.



Should have been first-ballot. One of the best hitters of his generation.



I'll never understand the prejudice against relief pitchers. If you're good at what you do, you belong.



Schilling only gets in with paid admission.

Thanks for calling me and Tom Verducci stupid, and for ignoring the rest of my post about Mussina and why I wouldn't vote for C Jones THIS year.

[Scott Bails]

The whole first-ballot thing is ridiculous - ergo, any argument supporting is also ridiculous.

[Facelift]

There are three automatics, according to what I've been reading:

Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Vlad Guerrero

[ronmac]

If a player deserves to be inducted on the second or third ballot, why not the first? Is the bar suddenly lowered after the first year of eligibility?

I pretty much agree with all of Scott's comments. Well, maybe not the "stupid" one.

[Casey]

I'm in. As for a career DH qualifying for HOF, I put them in the same category as a career relief pitcher. Yes, compared to guys who've been in pre-1960, DH & relief seem pretty one-dimensional, but it's the team that uses you this way. Does the player get much say in what he does? I'm in agreement with Scott, "if you're good at what you do..."

[polmico]

Does the player get much say in what he does? I'm in agreement with Scott, "if you're good at what you do..."

Which will make it interesting if, say, Andrew Miller has another ten years doing what he's doing right now.

Will a guy with no wins (to speak of) and no saves (to speak of) be put into the Hall purely on his ability to do the one job a pitcher is supposed to do: limit scoring from the opposing team?

[polmico]

Its like he's getting extra bonus points.

Exactly! Is that why he's light years ahead of Rolen? Why Hoffman is so far ahead of Wagner?

(And, yeah, I say that as a Braves fan who will enjoy watching Chipper get inducted this summer.)

[Brave73]

Chipper Jones, Vladimir Guerrero, Jim Thome & Trevor Hoffman join Jack Morris and Alan Trammell in Cooperstown!

[Facelift]

Chipper Jones, Vladimir Guerrero, Jim Thome & Trevor Hoffman join Jack Morris and Alan Trammell in Cooperstown!

Everybody was predicting the first three. Hoffman is underserving, so I'm not happy he was inducted. A very overrated closer who melted down in the biggest save opportunities he pitched in.

[ronmac]

Some of the greatest and most crucial pitching I have EVER seen was by middle and late relief pitchers.

[ronmac]

Interesting that Manny Ramirez is so low in the voting. His numbers are great. And he's no less a cheater than Bonds or Clemens.

Sure, he's an epic asshole.

Did Mark McGuire drop off the list before this year?

[Brave73]

Did Mark McGuire drop off the list before this year?

He was dropped in 2016.

[Brave73]

The four Hall of Famers getting their calls...

https://twitter.com/VladGuerrero27/s...12155984416768

https://twitter.com/FreddieFreeman5/...12142365560833

https://twitter.com/Padres/status/956312140238938112

https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/956335605906051073