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Thread: MLB 2018

  1. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    OK... you have a personal aesthetic preference for less strikeouts and more balls in play.

    Fine, but that doesn't invalidate my point that there isn't anything inherently wrong with it. Certainly, from a player production standpoint, having a lot of strikeouts isn't bad in and of itself if you also get on base a lot and have a lot of total bases.

    And Paleo-Progger's lumping of Tony Gwynn in with actual immortal greats like Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio is itself evidence of how blinding the stupid adherence to strikeout aversion can be, from player production standpoint.

    But hey - if you aesthetically don't like watching quality pitching, and would prefer to see balls in play all the time, that's as valid a preference as any. I guess there are NBA fans who don't like to watch dunks and 3 pointers, but would rather watch guys make 15 foot jump shots. Not sure why, though.
    I didn't "lump" Gwynn in as a way to equate his overall worth with MUSIAL, DiMaggio and Williams. Obviously he is not at the same level overall as those iconic legends, who had more power and run producing ability. I was providing examples of hitters who understood and practiced incredible plate discipline, who understood the value of putting balls in play over nonproductive strikeouts, and who were basically hitting machines. Gwynn has the highest career BA of any 'modern' player since the era of those 3 other HOFers, and his Ks over a 20 year career were minuscule, so I threw him in as a more recent example of an outstanding disciplined hitter.

    You can't produce squat if you strike out. You CAN produce positive results even with an out if you put the ball in play. You can advance runners, you can sacrifice. Errors can occur because the defense has pressure to take care of the ball. As Nogbad alluded to you can even drive in runs with balls in play that aren't even hits with SAC flys, ground outs. A ball in play can be a productive out--a K has no chance of being a productive out. The purpose of the game is to score runs, and balls in play have a much better chance of scoring a run than a K. A K has basically almost a 0 chance of scoring a run. All those hitters cited above understood that. Striking out over 100 times was a badge of dishonor and embarrassing. Even a well coached little leaguer understands this. The fact that you don't is frightening.

    I also found it amusing that in your little anti-Gwynn tirade you repeated 2 of the 3 players I cited as bball immortals but left Musial out. That could be you just being your usual petty self, but if you laughably don't think Musial is every bit the bball immortal as DiMaggio and Williams, then you really know squat about the national pastime. But your consistency is amazing.

    Oh yeah-- and basketball was better when good shooters had the talent to hit the higher % 15 foot jumper and knew and understood how to create shots (ie see L Bird), rather than launching up lower % 3s, back when teams actually played D.

  2. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Right, but Betances has mostly been excellent.

    Gray has been terrible every time out on the mound except for one. The two are miles apart right now. So, if Betances is totally lost, I'm wondering what that makes Gray, since Gray is consistently bad, whereas Betances is mostly good, but only occasionally terrible.
    My comment was about Betances. Why do you keep bringing up Gray? Why can't they both suck? Betances has been unreliable since last September. He has had some good outings, some horrible ones. He's mostly been mediocre at best and has lost his ability to keep his cool. He shows no confidence when he gets in a jam. Right now, he's a head case. He has lost his setup job and is a liability. Does he have talent? Yes. Can he turn it around? The jury is out on that. Would I like to see him regain his form? Yes. But right now he sucks. Boone is doing the right thing by keeping him out of big situations to work his way out of it. But, right now, he's hurting the team. And, guess what? So is Gray.

    It is beyond me why you keep bringing up Gray as though their situations cannot coexist.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  3. #553
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmico View Post
    And SABR supports this how? Are you claiming SABR dislikes balls in play?
    I'm not a SABR expert at all, but I was under the understanding that they trade the increase in strikeouts for the increases in other offensive productivity?
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  4. #554
    Geriatric Anomaly progeezer's Avatar
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    Cheese curds have quietly won 8 straight and their questionable starting pitching is so far answering questions quite well. Their bullpen even w/o Knebel has been lights out (until last night when they gave up 1, NO earned runs allowed in over 24 innings). Their bats are on fire as well.

    None of that really means a thing. We'll see after 4 at Wrigley starting tonight whether or not they're any good.
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  5. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by progeezer View Post
    Cheese curds have quietly won 8 straight
    Yikes, that's nearly one-tenth of their "projected" total victories. They better start losing.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  6. #556
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progeezer View Post
    We'll see after 4 at Wrigley starting tonight whether or not they're any good.
    That should be a good series.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  7. #557
    Member proggy_jazzer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    That should be a good series.
    Yep, and NBCSports/Chicago is televising three of the four, so I'll actually be able to watch on Directv. Looking forward to some good ball; hope the weather cooperates!
    David
    Happy with what I have to be happy with.

  8. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    I didn't "lump" Gwynn in as a way to equate his overall worth with MUSIAL, DiMaggio and Williams. Obviously he is not at the same level overall as those iconic legends, who had more power and run producing ability. I was providing examples of hitters who understood and practiced incredible plate discipline, who understood the value of putting balls in play over nonproductive strikeouts, and who were basically hitting machines. Gwynn has the highest career BA of any 'modern' player since the era of those 3 other HOFers, and his Ks over a 20 year career were minuscule, so I threw him in as a more recent example of an outstanding disciplined hitter.

    You can't produce squat if you strike out. You CAN produce positive results even with an out if you put the ball in play. You can advance runners, you can sacrifice. Errors can occur because the defense has pressure to take care of the ball. As Nogbad alluded to you can even drive in runs with balls in play that aren't even hits with SAC flys, ground outs. A ball in play can be a productive out--a K has no chance of being a productive out. The purpose of the game is to score runs, and balls in play have a much better chance of scoring a run than a K. A K has basically almost a 0 chance of scoring a run. All those hitters cited above understood that. Striking out over 100 times was a badge of dishonor and embarrassing. Even a well coached little leaguer understands this. The fact that you don't is frightening.

    I also found it amusing that in your little anti-Gwynn tirade you repeated 2 of the 3 players I cited as bball immortals but left Musial out. That could be you just being your usual petty self, but if you laughably don't think Musial is every bit the bball immortal as DiMaggio and Williams, then you really know squat about the national pastime. But your consistency is amazing.
    .
    I didn't say *anything* about Stan Musial. Learn to read!

    Perhaps someday your undestanding of sports will emerge from the paleolithic age, but it's not likely.

    You're just an addled old fan rooting for a team from a 2nd tier baseball town.

    Enjoy.

  9. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    My comment was about Betances. Why do you keep bringing up Gray? Why can't they both suck? Betances has been unreliable since last September. He has had some good outings, some horrible ones. He's mostly been mediocre at best and has lost his ability to keep his cool.

    It is beyond me why you keep bringing up Gray as though their situations cannot coexist.
    Betances has made 10 appearances. We can both acknowledge that 2 were terrible; totally out of character for any pitcher who is supposed to be good.

    But in the other *8* appearances, his numbers are: 7.1 innings pitched, 1 earned run, 13 strikeouts, 4 hits and 4 walks. That's a great WHIP and a great strikeouts/innings. These are absolutely stellar numbers. So, your statement that he's been mostly mediocre is completely untrue. Two really bad outings out of ten is not "mostly being mediocre." Most of the time, in fact, he's really good.

    Gray, on the other hand, is bad every time out. Betances a confounding mix of mostly greatness, peppered with infrequent bouts of hideousness.

    Again, if that is being "totally lost," then what words are there to describe Gray, who has been much worse - bad every time he takes the mound?

  10. #560
    Connoisseur of stuff. Obscured's Avatar
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    Watching both local teams playing day games.
    Monster 3 run bomb by Sanchez just walked off the Yankees.
    Mets go ahead in the 10th thanks to a 2 out, no one on rally capped off by a bases loaded walk.

    Edit- Cards tie it with their own 2 out, no one on rally. To the 11th!
    Last edited by Obscured; 04-26-2018 at 04:44 PM.
    "Henry Cow always wanted to push itself, so sometimes we would write music that we couldn't actually play – I found that very encouraging." - Lindsay Cooper, 1998
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  11. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I didn't say *anything* about Stan Musial. Learn to read!

    Perhaps someday your undestanding of sports will emerge from the paleolithic age, but it's not likely.

    You're just an addled old fan rooting for a team from a 2nd tier baseball town.

    Enjoy.
    Re Musial, exactly, doh! Read what I said. RIF
    Lmao @ 2nd tier bball town. When you don't have the facts, attack and insult.
    Commonly acknowledged by those in the know as the best bball town in America. Only an arrogant spoiled NYer, pissed that the Yanks have only won 1 WS in the last 17 years, could come up with this bile.

  12. #562
    Member Lou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    I think you missed his point. How does a K put a ball in play?
    Yes sir!
    A Comfort Zone is not a Life Sentence

  13. #563
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    More bickering, please. It's more fun than watching strikeouts.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  14. #564
    Cards walk off a win vs that other NY team in extras!

    I voted for *Cardinal* Keith Hernandez for the Cards HOF, long overdue!

  15. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    I'm not a SABR expert at all, but I was under the understanding that they trade the increase in strikeouts for the increases in other offensive productivity?
    Yes. For offensive production. You are correct there.

    But it's a misnomer to characterize SABR (or Brian Kenny or Fangraphs) as groups who support "three true outcomes" ball, which seems to be what is being suggested here (and apologies if I misinterpreted that).

    I watch MLB Now (Kenny's show) as much as possible, and I promise, he's in favor of balls in play. I first heard warnings that HR/Ks/BB rates spiking could be problematic years ago on Fangraphs. SABR and particularly Kenny are often straw manned (seen it on FB, ESPN, newspaper, announcers). Not that I'm invested in SABR or Kenny's opinions, not do I need to defend them, but I dislike it when I see it. Not sure why, but I enjoy their perspective on baseball, just as much as enjoy Mad Dog Russo's and anti-analytics guys like Michael Wilbon (when they actually talk about baseball on Pardon the Interruption). That probably wasn't happening here, and I guess I should've thought before I posted.

    Hopefully I haven't ruffled any feathers with my poorly thought out post. I honestly haven't the time to devote right now to baseball, PE or social media in general, and I should definitely read a whole thread before posting or commenting and be prepared to defend myself when I do post. I did neither here.
    I want to dynamite your mind with love tonight.

  16. #566
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    This thread reminds me of The Lockhorns, a comic strip that ran weekly in the Sunday paper.

  17. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by DocProgger View Post
    Re Musial, exactly, doh! Read what I said. RIF
    Lmao @ 2nd tier bball town. When you don't have the facts, attack and insult.
    What facts didn't I know?

    I never addressed Stan Musial, you did. You can beg and plead all you want, but there is no necessity for me to address Stan Musial to make the point that Tony Gwynn was no DiMaggio or Williams.

    And the first tier baseball towns are NY, Boston and Chicago. It is a total joke that you would even consider putting St. Louis among such esteemed company.

  18. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    More bickering, please. It's more fun than watching strikeouts.


    It's like oxygen.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  19. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Betances ...
    .. has lost his job as a setup man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Betances ...
    ... has taken one step back for every two steps forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Betances ...
    ... needs to make his mechanics consistent

    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Betances ...
    ... needs to control his emotions on the mound

    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Betances ...
    ... needs to get his head straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Betances ...
    ... needs to earn his job back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Betances ...
    Is not Sonny Gray. He's the taller one.
    Last edited by ronmac; 04-27-2018 at 08:23 AM.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  20. #570
    Gregorius does it again, hitting his 10th HR, tying Trout for the league lead, with a game winner in the 10th inning in Anaheim, and earning a curtain call on the road. In the last 11 games, he's is hitting .429 (18-for-42) with seven homers and 17 RBIs.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  21. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    .. has lost his job as a setup man.



    ... has taken one step back for every two steps forward.



    ... needs to make his mechanics consistent



    ... needs to control his emotions on the mound



    ... needs to get his head straight



    ... needs to earn his job back.



    Is not Sonny Gray. He's the taller one.

    If a pitcher who has been brilliant 8 of the 10 times he's taken the mound needs to get his head straight, what does Sonny Gray need?

  22. #572
    Fun Fact of the Day. The Cards have outdrawn not only the Yankees, but the Cubs and the Red Sox each of the last 5 years. StL has one-seventh of the metro population of New York, and the city proper is 28 times smaller.

    2017 MLB attendance

    StL-3.45 mil
    Bos-2.92 mil
    Cubs-3.2 mil
    NYY-3.15 mil

    2016 MLB attendance
    StL-3.44 mil
    Bos-2.95 mil
    Cubs-3.23 mil
    NYY-3.06 mil

    2015 MLB attendance
    StL-3.52 mil
    Bos-2.88 mil
    Cubs-2.92 mil
    NYY-3.19 mil

    2014 MLB attendance
    StL-3.54 mil
    Bos-2.95 mil
    Cubs-2.65 mil
    NYY-3.40 mil

    2013 MLB attendance
    StL-3.37 mil
    Bos-2.83 mil
    Cubs-2.64 mil
    NYY-3.28 mil


    Metro area populations(as of 2015 census)
    New York--20,182,305 (New York City=8.54 mil)
    Chicago---9,551,031
    Boston----4,774,321
    St.Louis--2,811,588 (StL city=311,404)

    The Cards have drawn at least 3 million every year since 1998 (just missed in 2003 at 2.9 mil)

  23. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    If a pitcher who has been brilliant 8 of the 10 times he's taken the mound needs to get his head straight, what does Sonny Gray need?
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  24. #574
    Geriatric Anomaly progeezer's Avatar
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    Brewers go into Wrigley and hold the Cubs to 9 runs total in 36 innings, but they manage to score only 2 runs total in those same innings, lose all 4 and get shutout 3 times after winning 8 straight. 1-7 against the Cubs so far (more than half their losses).

    Oy Vey
    Wait Til Next Year
    It's Still early
    Pitching's Been Great & Bats Will Come Around
    Wild Card's Still OK
    85 Wins Might Be High

    Pick one or more.
    "My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician, and to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference"

    President Harry S. Truman

  25. #575
    Meanwhile, the Red Sox are feeling the heat.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

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