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Thread: Public domain question

  1. #1

    Public domain question

    These days I see more and more classic jazz records, which apperently have became public domain get distributed by small labels often in cheap re-packages. The mid 50's Prestige and Riverside recordings by Miles Davis, Thelonius Monk , Bill Evans and others are among my favorite records often recorded by Rudy Van Gelder. I have quite a lot on vinyl, but I am always looking out for some records I don't have. I found today in a shop a 5 CD mini vinyl replica boxset with some classic Miles Davis records : Cookin, Digin ,Steamin , Relaxin and Workin. The artwork is really nice and the sound of the CD's is good. There were a couple of other boxsets with more or less the same records. The label is called DOL , with a link to a Russian website www.vinylogy.ru
    My question : How does this work technically for example in the case of Miles Davis. To whom belong the Prestige master tapes nowadays and what source does these small companies take for their releases ?
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  2. #2
    If it's Russian, it's likely violating copyrights.

    Different countries have different copyright rules. The US is more stringent, while others more relaxed. So, you might see music sold under public domain from, say, Italy, that is still copyright-protected in the US. I believe the material needs to be 75-years-old to fall into the public domain in the US. (I think it's 50 years in the UK.) But there are still limitations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    .....classic jazz records.......cheap re-packages......Russian website.........
    I don't know positively, but those three factors do not necessarily add up to the work being in public domain. In fact, they are quite common red flags for pirated editions, simply copied off legit CD releases and resold. My understanding is that artistic works currently remain under copyright until 70 years after the death of the artist. And that furthermore, that length continually and repeatedly gets extended, at the behest of influential billionaires who have bought the rights to classic works as investments, and of large corporations who have acquired the original copyright holder, and who both continue to make effortless money from them.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I have some dodgy Miles Davis recordings, including an MP3 disc with 90 tracks (8.2 hours) of very early stuff, mono, scratchy from a West German label. There's lots of it out there. I don't know if these early recordings are of indeterminate copyright, or whether all these discs are illegal, or whether this music has actually passed into the public domain.

    I figure, at some point, it's not my business to worry about this. If it's for sale and I want it, I'll buy it. If the copyright holder is getting ripped off, it's their duty -- not mine -- to police this.

    However, expecting good sound quality or nice packaging is asking too much.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    On the other hand I have a 5-mini LP CD box set of Charles Mingus on, yes, the DOL label and it's very nicely done. Great sound, great graphics, from all appearances a totally legal release.

    So who knows. There's been discussion on Discogs about whether they're legal or bootlegs. Apparently it's a gray area having to do with different countries' copyright laws.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    On the other hand I have a 5-mini LP CD box set of Charles Mingus on, yes, the DOL label and it's very nicely done. Great sound, great graphics, from all appearances a totally legal release.

    So who knows. There's been discussion on Discogs about whether they're legal or bootlegs. Apparently it's a gray area having to do with different countries' copyright laws.
    The Miles Davis one I have seems from the same DOL series as yours and the quality of the replica covers is better and thicker then most of the Classic Records 5 CD sets. Thanx for the hint: I read through the Discogs discussion and also through one on the Steve Hoffmann site. http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread....304832/page-3
    Interesting , but looks definetely like EU legal loop holes. I am still intrigued by the source material. Can DOL for example actually use an original Prestige CD and burn 1 to 1 copies without any loss or do they have to create an extra matrix ???
    Last edited by alucard; 01-12-2018 at 12:26 PM.
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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    I am still intrigued by the source material. Can DOL for example actually use an original Prestige CD and burn 1 to 1 copies without any loss or do they have to create an extra matrix ???
    If they’re licensed —or even if they’re not — yes, they’d probably just copy an existing CD. They are, afterall, a bit copy of the master. Digital files copy “without any loss,” unlike analog.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    On the other hand I have a 5-mini LP CD box set of Charles Mingus on, yes, the DOL label and it's very nicely done. Great sound, great graphics, from all appearances a totally legal release.

    So who knows. There's been discussion on Discogs about whether they're legal or bootlegs. Apparently it's a gray area having to do with different countries' copyright laws.
    There's a big difference between bootlegs and pirate copies. There has been a deliberate attempt to muddy those waters because the bootlegging laws are less clearly defined. So, they try to dump it in with pirating.
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    It was 50 years in the UK but the law changed in 2013. Every recording from 1963 onwards now has to be 70 years old before it goes public domain. It's obvious why 1963 was the cut-off- the big selling catalogue artists like The Beatles would be affected. I always say the only bad thing about this was that it meant there won't be more Dave Clark Five on CD!

    By and large I think the public domain releases are not good- I think of the mountain of terrible Elvis CDs out there now. There are some labels like Proper who at least put an effort into the packaging and presentation, but by and large these things are best avoided because they are not using tapes of any kind. I've had a few which are absolutely hammered by heavy-duty noise reduction.

    Some have obviously copied from existing CDs (and still apply the noise reduction!). I believe they are legally supposed to only copy from the medium on which it was released at the time, but of course nobody is really checking this.
    Last edited by JJ88; 01-12-2018 at 03:00 PM.

  10. #10
    They're doing this with all the early rock n roll stuff. With the jazz stuff, you at least know you can go to what you recognize as a reputable label, and ok, you'll pay more money, but at least you know if the Mingus or Miles records you're buying are on Columbia (or Sony, or whatever they're called this month), you're getting the legit deal, and appropriate monies are, hopefully, being distributed to the right quarters.

    But a lot of that rock n roll stuff, when you're talking about people like Buddy Holly, Little Richard, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Wanda Jackson, etc, a lot of these records were released on either small labels that don't exist anymore, or on big labels that can't be bothered with keeping some of this stuff in print. So it's down to reissue labels to handle this stuff.

    Now, there's one label out there, Bears Family, that put out this big mega boxsets, like the stuff King Crimson is putting out now, but "worse". For instance, they put out a Chuck Berry box, something like 30 CD's that had everything he recorded from 1955 up to whatever the last album he had recorded at the time (which was something like 1978 or whatever), every single, every album track, apparently every alternate take, etc. And it was done with good mastering, a big fancy book, etc. Or so I'm told, I don't have the 300 bucks to shell out for it.

    But then there's a lot of stuff that's put out on other labels that don't have that kind of reputation, and the results are often times dodgy. There's one label, I can't think of what it's called, but I keep seeing these el cheapo multi disc sets that will contain like upwards of 5 or 6 albums, plus maybe some singles, etc. I've seen packages by this company covering The Everly Brothers, Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Wanda Jackson, Buddy Holly, Ricky Nelson, Gene Vincent, etc.

    Apparently, you get just the CD's, and the fatboy case, and not a whole hell of a lot else. I understand the booklet just gives you the song titles, with the appropriate bylines and publishing info, and then maybe personnel and release date info, and that's it. No liner notes, no big fancy pictures (just the one that's on the front of the jewelbox), and that's it. And from the reviews I've seen on Amazon, a lot of them apparently they used poor masters, so the sound quality isn't what it should be.

    I imagine if these are coming from wherever in Europe (which I think is the case), they're probably just grabbing whatever master tapes that were already over there, probably using second or third (or worse?) generation tapes, not unlike what was done with the very first CD's back in the 80's.

    And then there's some labels that are apparently putting the stuff out on CD-R, again, with non-existent packaging. Maybe the sound quality isn't bad, but that's literally all you're getting.

    So you're never really sure which version of "the best of Gene Vincent" or whatever you should buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post

    But a lot of that rock n roll stuff, when you're talking about people like Buddy Holly, Little Richard, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Wanda Jackson, etc, a lot of these records were released on either small labels that don't exist anymore, or on big labels that can't be bothered with keeping some of this stuff in print. So it's down to reissue labels to handle this stuff.
    The big labels like EMI (before they collapsed and were bought out), Warner and Universal have owned these particular catalogues for many years. What is true is that yes, those labels have showed precious little interest in taking this music seriously. Bear Family have licensed it all properly and put out entire catalogues in their big boxes but the prices are eye-watering.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    The big labels like EMI (before they collapsed and were bought out), Warner and Universal have owned these particular catalogues for many years. What is true is that yes, those labels have showed precious little interest in taking this music seriously. Bear Family have licensed it all properly and put out entire catalogues in their big boxes but the prices are eye-watering.
    Yeah, if you have the money, the Bear Family sets are generally where you want to go. But man, if you thought the King Crimson boxes were expensive... (turns pants pockets inside out). And they're a little more exhaustive than they need to be. For instance, you don't need anything Chuck Berry did after about 1969 (and to be honest, you really don't even need the stuff he did for Mercury, for that matter). I mean, honestly, if you wanted to listen to My Ding-A-Ling, you wouldn't be dropping 300 bucks to buy a 20 CD boxset to get it.

    In the case of Little Richard, I managed to find a very good three CD set on Amazon that gives you basically everything you want from his 50's and early 60's career. I believe it's called The Best Of The Specialty and Vee-Jay Years. The sound quality is good, it's got all the songs you really want to hear (and the versions you want to hear, not some tacky subsequent re-recordings), and the liner notes are very informative (written by Billy Vera, who was briefly popular Stateside in the 80's with a hit ballad called At This Moment).

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    ^'At This Moment' or something like that, heard it somewhere but I don't think it was a UK hit. I've seen his name on reissues going back to the 80s.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^'At This Moment' or something like that, heard it somewhere but I don't think it was a UK hit. I've seen his name on reissues going back to the 80s.
    Yeah, it was only a hit Stateside because it was featured on a popular sitcom called Family Ties, something like five years after it was originally released. I gather he does a lot of work on those reissue titles, his Wikipedia page mentions him contributing releases featuring the music of Sam Cooke, Ray Charles, Louis Prima, etc. Very impressive, just not necessarily what I'd expect from the guy who wrote and sang At This Moment, and who also later sang a couple sitcom themes. I guess that's what I find amusing about the matter.

  15. #15
    Member hippypants's Avatar
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    I heard in a YT video that those DOL recordings either, aren't very good or are just recorded from digital, I guess meaning from CDs. So if the CD were cheaper I'd just go with that. They sell those too at Half Price Books a lot too I've seen.

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    I've noticed with the public domain records, the album covers are usually slightly different to the originals or completely different.

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    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    We"ve been flooded with those 5 Cd miniLp boxsets for years in Belgium, but they're mostly either Atlantic (like The Mingus or RCA legacy (for The Guess Who)... they look quite legit and at 15.00/5 albums, they're kind of a bargain, even if I must say that I probably would've bought only two or three of the 5 albums in the boxset.
    The Guess Who one even features 4 out of 5 remastered with bonus tracks discs (and no Alt.take or live versions either)

    I'll be on the lookout and avoid the DOL label, though (for avoiding purposes)...What does the logo and looks look like??
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    I dunno if this is public domain but its a great deal at $14.64 on Amazon.

  19. #19
    You've also got these "Five Classic Album" sets now, from more recent artists, like I bought one set that had the first five Nena albums, and another that had the first five Toto records. No, I'm not joking. I really like Nena and Toto, but I just never got around to getting anything from either on CD. They come with mini-LP reproduction covers, and all five go in a little slip case. Again, very bare bones, you don't even get a lyric sheet, but hey, in the case of Nena, the lyric sheet wouldn't do me any good (these are the German versions of the albums, none of that "Let's try to crack the America by singing in English" business). And I think the price for each set came out to something like $5-$7 per CD, so that's a bargain.

  20. #20
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    I'll be on the lookout and avoid the DOL label, though (for avoiding purposes)...What does the logo and looks look like??


    I think you really only need to avoid them if you want to be a purist about licensing fees to dead artists. As boxed sets, they're good quality and bargain priced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    We"ve been flooded with those 5 Cd miniLp boxsets for years in Belgium, but they're mostly either Atlantic (like The Mingus or RCA legacy (for The Guess Who)... they look quite legit and at 15.00/5 albums, they're kind of a bargain, even if I must say that I probably would've bought only two or three of the 5 albums in the boxset.
    The Guess Who one even features 4 out of 5 remastered with bonus tracks discs (and no Alt.take or live versions either)
    Those ones are official releases, mostly by Sony and Rhino.

    The ones under discussion here are possible because of a copyright loophole. They are technically legal but they aren't using original tape sources for anything. You'll still see a load of pre-1963 albums coming out like this.

    There are some public domain CDs highly rated, but those are generally for music which was recorded before tape came in. So music like 20s/30s jazz and blues, music for which the major labels really have little to no interest in anyway.

  22. #22
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    You've also got these "Five Classic Album" sets now, from more recent artists, like I bought one set that had the first five Nena albums, and another that had the first five Toto records. No, I'm not joking. I really like Nena and Toto, but I just never got around to getting anything from either on CD. They come with mini-LP reproduction covers, and all five go in a little slip case. Again, very bare bones, you don't even get a lyric sheet, but hey, in the case of Nena, the lyric sheet wouldn't do me any good (these are the German versions of the albums, none of that "Let's try to crack the America by singing in English" business). And I think the price for each set came out to something like $5-$7 per CD, so that's a bargain.
    Seen those as well. I've seen two about Man (early and mid-period) and two more about Doobie Brothers (pre MMcD and with)

    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post


    I think you really only need to avoid them if you want to be a purist about licensing fees to dead artists. As boxed sets, they're good quality and bargain priced.
    I'm definitely not a purist about it, since I still have a few Tachika & Poor House boots, bought before I knew they were. But at least those boots were making available albums that weren't for decades... It doesn't look like DOL is doing that.

    Thanks for the logo

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    The ones under discussion here are possible because of a copyright loophole. They are technically legal but they aren't using original tape sources for anything. You'll still see a load of pre-1963 albums coming out like this.

    There are some public domain CDs highly rated, but those are generally for music which was recorded before tape came in. So music like 20s/30s jazz and blues, music for which the major labels really have little to no interest in anyway.
    Which is why I was enquiring about the logo...

    Yeah, I've seen plenty of suspicious pre-65 albums boxsets from jazz greats lying around, but not in mini-lp sleeves as well.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  23. #23
    I went through some blogs and got some more infos. DOL is mainly specialised in vinyl reissues and most comments are positive, good quality vinyl, well centered no surface noise, good cover reproduction and good audio quality. One comment gave an interesting info. The mother company is in Russia , apparently they created a company in Romania with the help of EU funds and bought then a pressing plant in Romania . This explains also the made in EU sticker. They have a broad distribution network and are specialised in jazz and blues re releases.
    With low labour costs this looks like a perfect business plan.
    I looked in detail at my mini replica CD covers and the reproduction is excellent , the back cover has the Ira Gitler liner notes, but they changed the upper third where you find the credits and created a new one omitting all writing credits, which seems to be the major flaw. I will see next week a lawyer friend specialised in intellectual property and will ask him about the legal side. Btw I ripped the CD on my phone and the cover that appears is that of the Prestige 50th anniversary edition which they apparently used for their release.

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    Last edited by alucard; 01-13-2018 at 08:12 AM.
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I think you really only need to avoid them if you want to be a purist about licensing fees to dead artists.
    Well, they do have family and other survivors who are entitled to something.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    So music like 20s/30s jazz and blues, music for which the major labels really have little to no interest in anyway.
    And that is the best part of it all, IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    I'm definitely not a purist about it, since I still have a few Tachika & Poor House boots, bought before I knew they were. But at least those boots were making available albums that weren't for decades... It doesn't look like DOL is doing that.
    Once again, those are not bootlegs. They are pirates.
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  25. #25
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    Well, they do have family and other survivors who are entitled to something.
    It's not MY job to defend their rights.

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