Frank Zappa vs Pekka Pohjola

[Phlakaton]

What he said. And FZ is my favorite by a fair chunk, although Phil Miller is close.

Damn straight brother... Phil is in my top 5 as well. Frank just brings something daring in his solos - good or bad - he was wild on stage - safe sucks if you ask me - and another reason I love him is I got something wildly different from album to album - yeah - it was his sound - but he didnt rest on anything.

[Zappathustra]

I think you're misunderstanding me here - I felt that I made it very clear that I was talking from a perspective of personal taste, and that I did not in any way deny Zappa's talent. And the fact that I personally find him "wildly overrated" is simply a reflection of how highly rated he generally is. My whole point here was that the contrast is interesting: While Zappa is universally acclaimed and Pohjola is virtually unknown outside of Scandinavia (and outside of prog circles) I still find that Pohjola resonates so much stronger with me than Zappa.

I am sorry if I misunderstood. But I do think the rhetoric you used is open to some misunderstanding.

Let's also not forget that we make this discussion in a language which is not our native. In my language, when we say for someone that he has talent, there is always a big BUT coming right afterwards. Some sort of unfulfillement.

Zappa was not just talented. He is one of the very-very few who changed the face of music forever. And paved the way for many-many to come after him . Including Pohjola perhaps, that - we agree - should be more acclaimed as well. This goes well beyond personal taste.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

Meh, you guys are too touchy. The thread subject was, to the best of my understanding, the relative merits of the two. I feel I have explained in detail why I prefer Pohjola, and why I have a lesser preferance for Zappa. As far as I can understand that's what the thread was asking for.

I chimed in because I think raising awareness about Pohjola's amazing output is important. Zappa needs no help in that regard.

[chalkpie]

I think raising awareness about Pohjola's amazing output is important.

Bingo. And amen (again).

[Rarebird]

I chimed in because I think raising awareness about Pohjola's amazing output is important. Zappa needs no help in that regard.

Right on both I think.

Not that I rate one over the other, but Frank Zappa is acknowledged as an influential musician everywere, even in books that are mainly orientated on classical music and that is something that can't be said about Pekka Pohjola.

And as I've said before, if it is about my own appreciation, I like everything Pekka Pohjola did and luckily, I don't like everything Frank Zappa did. That doesn't mean I want to diminish his talens or influence, just that his music is not allways the music I like. The same can be said about a whole lot of other influential musicians, in classical, jazz or rock. They may have been very talented and very influential, but just not my taste.

[StarThrower]

His solos are almost always improvised, but he plays riffs, patterns, small composed ideas, building blocks, and when they are best you can hear that he is traveling towards something allready imagined in his brain, long before actually he plays it. You can feel the intention.
Of course, since they are improvised, some solos are not that great, but even an average zappa solo is more unique than most. He has his own language.

On the FZ produced albums the solos are edited for maximum musical impact. Of course we can now listen to them in full on the vault releases. For example the Chunga's Revenge solo on Buffalo takes several minutes before it gets really interesting and achieves a high level of intensity. I don't think FZ would bother using the whole take. He would release 2 minutes of it and call it Pinocchio's Furniture.

[undergroundrailroad]

Pohjola's bass solos are WAY better than Zappa's.

[Progbear]

Which was the better organ soloist: Zappa on “The Little House I Used to Live In” or Pohjola on...I think it was “Valittaja,” maybe?

[regenerativemusic]

Which was the better organ soloist: Zappa on “The Little House I Used to Live In” or Pohjola on...I think it was “Valittaja,” maybe?

I think Pohjola studied piano formally, although he didn't seem to use it that much on records, that I'm aware of.

[Zeuhlmate]

Pohjola's bass solos are WAY better than Zappa's.

Zappa didn't play much bass

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I really love Ordinary music

is that an album title by Pekka?

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I happen to think that Pekka Pohjola is one of the most significant composers in the West in recent times. An absolute genius, and one whose music transcends genres and exudes a very unusual grace and beauty, all without ever becoming pretentious. My admiration for Pohjola is pretty boundless.

Zappa, on the other hand, I find wildly overrated. A fine guitarist and a guy with an unnerving talent for finding the best musicians in the business, but I find that most of his compositional output lacks heart and often descends into a sort of intellectual posery that I find unappealing. My two cents, and a minority view, I'm sure.

those are roughly my sentiments as well... but I'm trying to understand why anyone would compare the two from the get-go???

Zappa was hugely influential of course. Pekka is not really. Zappa was hell-bent on his lyrical mockery of society. Pekka was a an instrumental composer.

They just dont really compare well

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Of course this had to boil down into "All music is less than Yes and Genesis". With embedded videos for all of us who have never heard the music of the gods who invented melody.

I prefer Zappa's Guitar playing WAY more than Howe. Talk about overrated... oof! Hackett OTOH is a very good Guitar player, even if I do not like his parent band much.

[Progbear]

I think Pohjola studied piano formally, although he didn't seem to use it that much on records, that I'm aware of.

Actually, quite a lot of his albums feature him as the main keyboardist, or at least pianist. For sure his piano playing is all over Harakka bialoipokku, Visitation, Space Waltz and that Made in Sweden song mentioned earlier.

Much rarer is his violin playing, which I think only appears (on his solo albums) on one track from Pihkasilmä kaarnakorva.

[regenerativemusic]

those are roughly my sentiments as well... but I'm trying to understand why anyone would compare the two from the get-go???

Zappa was hugely influential of course. Pekka is not really. Zappa was hell-bent on his lyrical mockery of society. Pekka was a an instrumental composer.

They just dont really compare well

Well, if you think so, why don't we just delete the thread? lol

[Bake 1]

The thread title Frank Zappa vs. Pekka Pohjola is ripe for lowest common denominator responses. FZ was reputed to have said that ranking guitar players is a stupid hobby, (most of us probably do it, but stupid is generally what we're best at). Pohjola was mostly a composer and bass guitarist and Zappa was mostly a composer and a guitar player, but we still have basically have a peaches vs. apricots shoot out. It might be valid to claim that Zappa was more far reaching as a composer in terms of references, (Varese, Eddie Guitar Slim, cheesy 50's doo wop and Bartok were pretty much off limits for Pohjola). In a Quantitative sense Zappa is bigger... there is greater variety in his output and he put out way more product. Compositions like Grand Wazoo, Sofa, Twenty Small Cigars, Zoot Allures and many others are not light years apart from Pohjola's best stuff. There are several Pohjola recordings that are really great to have stuck in the head, but anyone who suggests that Zappa is categorically the lesser artist or composer could probably benefit greatly from a few well spent hours of FZ listening.

[aith01]

Zappa. Good heavens, Zappa. If anything, ignoring all the fanboys out there, he's the most underrated musician ever. Although tearjerking grace and beauty can be found in Zappa's music, they're not often the focus. They're part of a massive palette. When I think of Zappa, I think of breadth, depth, interconnectedness, fearlessness, intricacy, ambition, scale, and a crazy ability (and compulsion) to apprehend, synthesize and mix every conceivable musical genre masterfully. His classical orchestral/chamber efforts were actually very strong as early as 200 Motels and really stand up well to the American university composer standard of the time. When you throw in his astute cultural observations and lyrical acumen (in classical music, almost no composer writes his own texts), you have something totally unprecedented and unrepeatable in musical history.

I totally agree with this.

Zappa is one of my very favorite musicians, in spite of only owning/listening to a fraction of his total recorded output. Something about the way that guy composed just gets to me. Nobody put melodies together like he did, IMO.

Now Pekka Pohjola is someone I'm much less familiar with. I only have Harakka Bialoipokku and The Mathematician’s Air Display, but really like them both. I'd like to know where I should go next, if any of you fine gents and/or ladies would be so kind as to offer one or two suggested "next steps".

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

I only have Harakka Bialoipokku and The Mathematician’s Air Display, but really like them both. I'd like to know where I should go next, if any of you fine gents and/or ladies would be so kind as to offer one or two suggested "next steps".

the thing about Pekka is that he really did not put out a single weak album in his career. Some of the albums he was a bassist on are not as good as his solo work, but that's a whole nuther thang. You cant go wrong with any album he made under his name. But I will suggest Space Waltz

[Progbear]

Now Pekka Pohjola is someone I'm much less familiar with. I only have Harakka Bialoipokku and The Mathematician’s Air Display, but really like them both. I'd like to know where I should go next, if any of you fine gents and/or ladies would be so kind as to offer one or two suggested "next steps".

Like I said, of the albums I’ve heard, the only one I don’t care for is Jokamies (Everyman), which just sounds too soundtrack-y. It’s more for completists. Don’t start with Urban Tango, there’s a track with some pretty awful vocals, though the rest is fine. The rest of his output is silver-plated, even late-career albums like Pewit and Views are gems. Personal favorite: Visitation. Great songs and lovely arrangements, the only minus being that it’s barely over half an hour long. “Try to Remember” might be my #1 PP track, takes my breath away every time.

[Rarebird]

is that an album title by Pekka?

No, that is the last track of Pewit.

[yesstiles]

Everything Pohjola was involved with from 1970-1980 (and there's a lot!) is top rate. I haven't yet listened past that.

[rcarlberg]

Zappa. Good heavens, Zappa. If anything, ignoring all the fanboys out there, he's the most underrated musician ever. Although tearjerking grace and beauty can be found in Zappa's music, they're not often the focus.

"Underrated"? Zappa? Surely you jest, Zappa is one of the most celebrated/worshipped musicians of the 20th Century.

Even though the "focus" of a good bit of his music is comedy which is misogynist, puerile, scatological and patently offensive.

IMO

[Progbear]

Everything Pohjola was involved with from 1970-1980 (and there's a lot!) is top rate. I haven't yet listened past that.

Get Space Waltz immediately! One of my favorite PP albums. Flight of the Angel and Pewit are likewise essential listening.

[unclemeat]

Zappa + scatological
IMO

People keep saying this, although there are very few instances of that in his work :
The Illinois enema bandit
Why does it hurt when I pee ?
one scene in Thing Fish

[yesstiles]

Get Space Waltz immediately! One of my favorite PP albums. Flight of the Angel and Pewit are likewise essential listening.

I have it on the Breakthru cd, just haven't ever listened to it yet.