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Thread: In The Wake Of Poseidon: Why is it considered such a step down from the debut?

  1. #101
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIF View Post
    I agree with what you said about Sketches Of Spain. For the longest time I stopped at '62 regards to music, but hearing some teens at my local Barnes And Noble go on about how great Miles(and Sketches Of Spain) was made me venture back further.
    Yeah, this made me back up to 59, but not further ... (except for some Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley stuff, but I don't own any)

    But anyway I always thought that the 4 Gil Evans-Miles collans should have been releazed as Gil Evans with Miles as a star solo artiste status
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  2. #102
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    I just got done listening to In The Wake Of Poseidon on headphones. I don't think that the songs are a carbon copy of the debut. They are more jazzy on the second album. Plus, Peter Giles is no Greg Lake and Mel Collins is no Ian McDonald. Pictures Of A City grooves more than 21st Century Schizoid Man, and is not as sinister. Cat Food kinda sounds like a rap song. I listen to Wake more than I do Court.
    Last edited by JIF; 02-15-2013 at 05:42 AM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Yeah, this made me back up to 59, but not further ... (except for some Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley stuff, but I don't own any)

    But anyway I always thought that the 4 Gil Evans-Miles collans should have been releazed as Gil Evans with Miles as a star solo artiste status
    I'd check out earlier stuff from George Russell; Monk's mid-'50s Riverside records are terrific, as are Bil Evans'. There are others - Jimmy Giuffre with Jim Hall, Lennie Tristano, Mingus to name three.

    Personally my tastes tend to begin around the mid '50s, move forward but really kick in around 1959-60 forward. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what came before, like Ellington. The style doesn't do a lot for me, but man, the writing and orchestration!

    Our tastes are our tastes, but they shouldn't dismiss things that don't necessarily touch us that came before, since those things are often very fundamental to the things we do like. That's why, when I read comments like "simpish and outdated [sic]" my back goes up, at least a bit. Miles and Gil wouldn't have happened were it not for Armstrong and Ellington, for example. So while I don't particularly enjoy Armstrong, I sure respect what he did to move the music forward in his time.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by JIF View Post
    Plus, Peter Giles is no Greg Lake and Mel Collins is no Ian McDonald.
    No they aren't; personally I prefer Giles' bass playing, and Collins actually had/has a far broader vernacular than McDonald (though that's not meant to suggest I don't like him; I do).

  5. #105
    Banned Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    But anyway I always thought that the 4 Gil Evans-Miles collans should have been releazed as Gil Evans with Miles as a star solo artiste status
    One thing about the Miles/Evans projects that I don't like is I find that all the screechy high-register massed horns and relative lack of bottom-end on those recordings makes them harder for me to enjoy. Was Chambers even anywhere near a mic? When I find myself inclined to listen to Concierto... I usually turn to Jim Hall's version.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    One thing about the Miles/Evans projects that I don't like is I find that all the screechy high-register massed horns and relative lack of bottom-end on those recordings makes them harder for me to enjoy. Was Chambers even anywhere near a mic? When I find myself inclined to listen to Concierto... I usually turn to Jim Hall's version.
    True, especially with the version used in the box set. Subsequent masters have been somewhat better.

  7. #107
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    I'd check out earlier stuff from George Russell; Monk's mid-'50s Riverside records are terrific, as are Bil Evans'. There are others - Jimmy Giuffre with Jim Hall, Lennie Tristano, Mingus to name three.
    We're digressing from Poseidon (but we were going round in circles for the last two pages anyway)

    I tried Monk a few timesn Russell once... heard most of the pre-59 Mingus (including NTM, which was released in 62, though recorded in 57)... It (pre-59) simply never hits the spot for me, even the early Sun Ra stuff.... and Trane's Prestige stuff doesn't do it for me, either... his first album that brings a bit of excitement to me are the Atlantic albums Favourite things (a bit) and Olé (a lot)... Something happened in 59...

    Yeah, some day, I'll try Bill Evans again (he's kind of my last hope, though he didn't release much pre-59)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Yeah, some day, I'll try Bill Evans again (he's kind of my last hope, though he didn't release much pre-59)
    Hey, taste is taste; just trying to offer some suggestions. As for pre-59? Evans' early Milestone records - Everybody Digs Bill Evans (1958) and New Jazz Conceptions (1956) are both masterpieces imo, and drove a lot of what was to come.

    Have you tried any Lennie Tristano? And Jim Hall with Jimmy Giuffre 3 (there's a box set with all of it for a reasonable price at amazon uk) is terrific also - early days of what would become chamber jazz, if that kinda thing does it for you (it does me).

    Best!
    John

  9. #109
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    And Jim Hall with Jimmy Giuffre 3 ... early days of what would become chamber jazz
    As well as Chico Hamilton's Spectacular a year earlier, also with Hall....
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  10. #110
    Matt! polmico's Avatar
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    This thread has progressed nicely.
    I want to dynamite your mind with love tonight.

  11. #111
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Indeed, there have been a few threads recently that have sideways into interesting stuff that I hadn't seen often on PE3. Nice to see.
    Ian

    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  12. #112
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post

    Have you tried any Lennie Tristano? And Jim Hall with Jimmy Giuffre 3 (there's a box set with all of it for a reasonable price at amazon uk) is terrific also - early days of what would become chamber jazz, if that kinda thing does it for you (it does me)
    Nope... despite a certain knowledge of jazz, I haven't heard any of these three, but their names ring more than a bell

    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    As well as Chico Hamilton's Spectacular a year earlier, also with Hall....
    Isn't this some kind of Afro-Cuban or Samba jazz, or is the Cuban/Brazilian-sounding name misleading??
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Nope... despite a certain knowledge of jazz, I haven't heard any of these three, but their names ring more than a bell
    I was going to recommend the complete box I got last year, but it's now oop and selling for a stupid price (150GBP+). If you can find a cheap copy of this, snap it up: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Stu...1076259&sr=8-1

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregory View Post
    Cadence and Cascade
    kept a man named Jade
    Cool in the shade
    While his audience played
    Purred
    Whispered
    Spend us too: we only serve for you...

    IMO, one of Sinfield's best.
    See, I always thought Cadence and Cascade were musical terms,now it would seem they are 2 ladies,kidnappers it would seem. The song is very beautiful. Not a huge fan of Gordon Haskell's voice I must admit he did a good job here. I think Sinfield used too much leslie on Happy Family though from Lizard. I can settle this once and for all though-watch,here it comes,are you ready? ALL KING CRIMSON-GOOD KING CRIMSON!!! There you go see,no more debate.

    n.p.Rick Wakeman-No Earthly Connection(A&M remaster) That first opening track still gives me chills up my spine Minimoog Heaven.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Rand Kelly View Post
    Not a huge fan of Gordon Haskell's voice I must admit he did a good job here.
    Yeah I agree completely. I think the Greg's version could've been better. So Fripp's choice for the record was right.

  16. #116
    Matt! polmico's Avatar
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    I prefer Belew's version.
    I want to dynamite your mind with love tonight.

  17. #117
    I've always liked Poseidon more than the debut. I think it is a step up in terms of quality songwriting. (Though i still love the debut)
    "and what music unites, man should not take apart"-Helmut Koellen

  18. #118
    Same dribble from me again...but I have to admit with Haskell's laughter at the closing of "Indoor Games" and the reason being that he was directly laughing at what he was being asked to sing...and his yell or scream at the end of a verse in "Cirkus" which meant he was frustrated with what he was being asked to sing is the ultimate irony in the history of Prog. The laughter and scream from both songs were sinister and fitting to prog...yet never originally intended and that is the best irony of life. What a strange thing to occur in progressive rock. Very unique and ironic!

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by polmico View Post
    I prefer Belew's version.
    Never heard this.

  20. #120
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregory View Post
    Never heard this.
    It's the original album track with Belew's vocal replacing Haskell's, released on the Frame by Frame box set.

  21. #121
    It's on the 4-CD box set Frame by Frame: The Essential King Crimson (1991), when Fripp had legal problems with Gordon Haskell, so he decided to replace his performances on the selected tracks. Adrian Belew replaced his vocals on Cadence and CascAde and Tony Levin replayed the bass on Bolero (this instrumental part of the Lizard suite was apparently the only part of this record that RF deemed worthy/bearable to include at that time)

    EDIT: too slow
    Last edited by sphinx; 02-18-2013 at 03:06 PM. Reason: slowness

  22. #122
    Thanks guys, very interesting information. Curious facts really.

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