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Thread: Blade Runner 2049 Discussion (SPOILERS!!!)

  1. #51
    I think that was the significance of him interacting with her billboard right near the final action sequence. This billboard said "You seem like a nice Joe" and the sign flashes pretty clearly "Everything you want to see / Everything you want to hear." For me (and in my interpretation, K as well), it called into question how much of Joi was preprogrammed. He had, up to that point, kind of rejected anything more real.
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  2. #52
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Yeah, that was just how the AI was programmed, she said "You look lonely" which Joi had said to K earlier, the billboard said "You look like a good Joe" after Joi told K he needed a real name, like "Joe." In that moment K realized it was all an illusion, just an artificial intelligence.

    This reminds me of the scene in "Her" where Joachim Phoenix discovers his AI is the "special companion" to thousands of other customers and it spoils his enoyment of her.

    Again, the filmmaker is playing with our concepts of what it means to be human, what it means to be special.

  3. #53
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijinsky Hind View Post
    I thought that Neander Wallace was upset because he was unable to duplicate the "miracle" of replicant reproduction that supposedly had happened with Deckard and Rachel ? I must have gotten confused somewhere along the line.
    No, you're right. Wallace says Tyrell achieved the miracle of replicant reproduction (just before being killed by Roy), and though he (Wallace) had "tried and tried" he's been unable to achieve it again. That's why he's looking for the child, to try to determine if it's a replicant or a real human being (no serial numbers).

    Rachel, and possibly Decakard (depending on your interpretation) were "experimental" Nexus 7s with unlimited lifespans and -- apparently -- human gametes.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 10-11-2017 at 10:43 AM.

  4. #54
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    One note (I saw it a second time last night, every bit as good on repeat viewing): to your last point about the fight with Luv, I think she isn't telling K that he was the best one, rather I think she's saying that SHE knew she was the best one. Because on some level that was important to her character (Wallace called her his "best angel" early on when he dispatches her to find the child).
    I also saw it a second time yesterday, and you're right, Wallace tells Luv "You're the best one" as he sends her to find the child. Now, did he mean her personally, or her model? Presumably Luv and K are Nexus 9, because the prologue says they're still hunting escaped Nexus 8s because they don't have the absolute obedience of 9s.

    And yet both Luv and K evenutally disobey, lie to their employers, and show signs of empathy (crying, mercy) so maybe the 9s aren't automatons as Wallace intends them to be. Maybe they have become "human"?

  5. #55
    Member Nijinsky Hind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippypants View Post
    This actually could fold into Nijinsky Hind's theory about using Biblical theology--the denial of Peter when asked about Christ.
    That may be a stretch .... but I for one am looking forward to K's "resurrection" if there is a sequel to this movie. I'm worried that low box office numbers might make the producers decide not to do a sequel. Because this film needs one badly.
    Still alive and well...

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I also saw it a second time yesterday, and you're right, Wallace tells Luv "You're the best one" as he sends her to find the child. Now, did he mean her personally, or her model? Presumably Luv and K are Nexus 9, because the prologue says they're still hunting escaped Nexus 8s because they don't have the absolute obedience of 9s.

    And yet both Luv and K evenutally disobey, lie to their employers, and show signs of empathy (crying, mercy) so maybe the 9s aren't automatons as Wallace intends them to be. Maybe they have become "human"?
    I love Luv (heh) because she's such a mess. I may be stretching a little bit here but assuming that K and Luv are indeed the same model, there's such a contrast between them. They both have little moments where they cringe a bit when reminded of their artificiality (K commenting to Luv about Wallace naming her, K's reaction to the captain saying he's done well without a soul). K goes about obeying but at some point, changes his own course and the change feels organic (ironically enough). On the flip side you have Luv who seems driven above all to be the best, most valuable...and when she stretches things (like lying to justify a killing) to make it happen she seems literally on the verge of falling apart. If she obeys perfectly, she fails. If she strays from her obedience she might succeed but at the cost of no longer being perfect. It is almost as if, no matter what, the harder one (Tyrell, Wallace) try to create perfect servants, they are destined to eventually deviate.

    Like I said, I may be stretching a bit here...it's kind of fun to go all armchair philosopher on this sort of movie though.

    One other thought...this reminds me a bit of how Ridley Scott tried to handle David the android in Prometheus, although I personally think BR was far more successful. Which is kind of funny because, looking at these two Alien prequels it kind of feels like Scott is still more interested in exploring complicated AI issues than aliens.
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  7. #57
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Yes you’re right, Tyrell and Wallace want perfect slaves, but the more perfect they make them the more they deviate from being obedient slaves. Maybe there’s something about free will being a component of humanity, about self-direction being necessary for knowledge of good and evil?

  8. #58
    Certainly possible that was part of the idea
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  9. #59
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    How does Luv disobey Wallace?

    And what was the deal with Wallace killing the prototype or first-off-the-production-line of the newest series? He just knew it wasn't capable of reproduction, so he slit open her uterus in a grand show of indulgent symbolism? That scene was a little over the top, IMO. Wallace's lair was a little over the top too. But Wallace is a sort of problematic character - in a way he's the least reasonable or realistic of them all.
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  10. #60
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    Wallace represents the god complex........the brutal scene was more interesting as a scene for Luv, who was a spectator, in my view.
    "And this is the chorus.....or perhaps it's a bridge...."

  11. #61
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wideopenears View Post
    Wallace represents the god complex...
    It did somehow remind me of this famous Blake etching:

    "Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart...not smart, but genius....and a very stable genius at that!"

  12. #62
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    How does Luv disobey Wallace?
    She doesn’t disobey Wallace so much, as tell a lie —something else Nexus 9s aren’t supposed to be able to do. When confronting Lt. Joshi she says, “Maybe I’ll just tell Wallace you attacked me first” when obviously Luv was the aggressor.

    That, and the tears when the newly hatched replicant was slit open, and the tears when she kills Joshi. Replicants aren’t supposed to have empathy.

  13. #63
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    One “logic error” I kept coming back to: wouldn’t it be cheaper to manufacture all replicants with the same face & body?

  14. #64
    Argh...lost my last reply. Damn phone interface...

    The Nexus 8 model in the Wallace building (Luv and K walk past en route to the archives) looks like Sapper Morton...so maybe some models ARE clones?

    Also...furthering your logic issue: physical replicants seem to vary greatly (and likely at greater expense for production), yet Joi seems to be identical for all customers (despite her ability to change wardrobes on a dime).

    Logic...what a drag ;-)
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  15. #65
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Joi of course is a holographic AI, not a replicant.

  16. #66
    I know...just seems like a virtual projection would be far cheaper to make more 'diverse'

  17. #67
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Well when Joi was glitching in the beginning it became apparent you could have any hair color or length, clothing style, facial features or probably height and weight you wanted.

  18. #68
    Yep, very true.

    Jumping a bit...in the Dangerous Days documentary about the original film, Hampton Fancher talks about his original opening for Blade Runner. It was going to be in a home, and the homeowner enters into the kitchen where a pot is boiling on the stove and Deckard is waiting in the shadows, but the owner doesn't acknowledge him at first...

    ...some ideas never quite go away, do they? I thought that was kind of interesting, especially because Fancher got really animated about the pot in particular for some reason.
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  19. #69
    Member wideopenears's Avatar
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    That's pretty cool.
    "And this is the chorus.....or perhaps it's a bridge...."

  20. #70
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    Just came back from seeing it in IMAX. A few observations:

    1. There were maybe six people in attendance. The film starterd at noon, but six?!
    2. There is no way this is going to be a box office success. The first film wasn't and this will probably do slightly worse than that because you really have to be into the first movie to follow along with the second.
    3. I don't know how people stand the excessive db's of sound. It was way too loud to the point of being uncomfortable.
    4. I loved the film! It's got a lot of thought provoking stuff in it and is faithful to the original's atmosphere.
    5. Ryan Gosling's rather "flat" performance up until he goes off-baseline is note-perfect!
    6. I wonder if there is a link between Dr. Ana and K and, for that matter, all of the replicants. K is on the steps looking at the gentle swirling snowfall and when Deckard sees Ana in her bubble, she's looking at the same swirling snowfall as K. Is that how she experiences life, through the perceptions of all the other replicants or just K himself?
    7. Given that this is probably going to be a box office flop, I doubt we're going to get answers to this question and those that others have raised. I am definitely going to see it again.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    Just came back from seeing it in IMAX. A few observations:

    1. There were maybe six people in attendance. The film starterd at noon, but six?!
    2. There is no way this is going to be a box office success. The first film wasn't and this will probably do slightly worse than that because you really have to be into the first movie to follow along with the second.
    3. I don't know how people stand the excessive db's of sound. It was way too loud to the point of being uncomfortable.
    4. I loved the film! It's got a lot of thought provoking stuff in it and is faithful to the original's atmosphere.
    5. Ryan Gosling's rather "flat" performance up until he goes off-baseline is note-perfect!
    6. I wonder if there is a link between Dr. Ana and K and, for that matter, all of the replicants. K is on the steps looking at the gentle swirling snowfall and when Deckard sees Ana in her bubble, she's looking at the same swirling snowfall as K. Is that how she experiences life, through the perceptions of all the other replicants or just K himself?
    7. Given that this is probably going to be a box office flop, I doubt we're going to get answers to this question and those that others have raised. I am definitely going to see it again.
    I thought Ana was programming the snow that K was experiencing. She programs memories, after all. Yes, Ryan's staring into space, method acting. A musician on Facebook I enjoy and respect stated he disliked the film and the soundtrack. Many agreed with him, though some loved it. One guy thought the staring was a waste of time. Another called the film just another blockbuster. Blockbuster! Expensive, yes, but not in that category IMO. Too thoughtful for many. I didn't see it in IMAX, and didn't find it crazy loud.
    Has anyone seen it in 3D? I wonder if that is a plus or minus with this film. I haven't enjoyed 3D much in the few films I've experienced, rather a distraction.

  22. #72
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I haven't seen it in 3D yet for that reason. The only scenes where it might be cool are where K first enters the irradiated city (Las Vegas?) looking for Deckard. "The Martian" was good in 3D. Can't think of any others offhand where it added anything.

    As to the loudness... that's entirely up to the theater. If they turned it up too loud, you should complain to the manager. When I saw it, it was very loud but not oppressively so. I saw some other movie a year or so ago that was just turned up to nuts, and I complained.

    The link between the snowfall outside and the snowfall on Ana is just another of those head scratchers that Villaneuve likes to throw in his movies. Maybe it doesn't mean anything.

  23. #73
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    I realize the volume is not the fault of the film and didn't mean to give that impression. It just seems like every movie I go to, the sound is deafening! I usually bring earplugs, but forgot this time. Ususally it's only a problem for the BOMBastic trailers.

  24. #74
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Complain.

    It’s a decision made by the theater manager, and she can probably be persuaded.

  25. #75
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    I also guessed 3D would just be too much. The IMAX theater in which I saw it had good sound. Not too loud, but loud enough that you felt awash in those industrial sounds.
    "Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart...not smart, but genius....and a very stable genius at that!"

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