Genesis- Duke

[Progbear]

Tonight Tonight Tonight, Domino, and The Brazilian are "crass, singles-bound product"?

Personally, I wish more supposedly "mainstream" music sounded like those songs.

Well, they ain’t exactly Henry Cow. They’d fit in on a Duran Duran or Toto album and nobody would bat an eye, if you ask me.

[Splicer]

Duke is the last album with Phil still drumming furiously in a Fusion style. I tend to prefer the "Suite" in its live incarnation as one long piece. However, other than musically, I have no idea what the theme of it is supposed to be. It sounds to me like bits of a larger piece, most of which didn't get written. ATTWT is a lush sounding record, but some of the songs might have been longer had they been on Wind -- on ATTWT they are faded out, the rest undeveloped from the jamming. I like Abacab as well -- at least most of it with "Me and Sarah Jane" being my favorite song. It's probably Tony's best song aside from "One for the Vine" which in my opinion is his masterpiece. The eponymous album has the two "Home" songs which I like, but it solidified the new style of instrumental of this band -- deliberate and plodding rather than dynamic.

After this, the quality diminished greatly. Invisible Touch has a bunch of hits but nothing spectacular. We Can't Dance is shit. Even the showcase song, "Fading Lights", is not exactly inspired. Calling All Stations is not a Genesis record, IMO. It's a Banks/Rutherford album.

[yamishogun]

Well, they ain’t exactly Henry Cow. They’d fit in on a Duran Duran or Toto album and nobody would bat an eye, if you ask me.

Domino on Duran Duran or Toto?

[Progbear]

Domino on Duran Duran or Toto?

I don’t get what’s “uncommercial” about it. Its length? It’s just two songs smushed together, and neither of them are particularly “prog.” Album filler.

[aith01]

I don’t get what’s “uncommercial” about it. Its length? It’s just two songs smushed together, and neither of them are particularly “prog.” Album filler.

Gotta disagree with you there. It's got nothing to do with the length of the songs, but the compositions and arrangements. I'd never expect to hear something like Domino coming from Toto or Duran Duran -- too much of Genesis idiosyncrasies abound on that one. It's unmistakably Genesis. Banks has to be one of the least "commercial" musicians out there in terms of song composition.

Not album filler at all.

[aith01]

Well, they ain’t exactly Henry Cow. They’d fit in on a Duran Duran or Toto album and nobody would bat an eye, if you ask me.

Foxtrot and The Lamb aren't exactly Henry Cow either, but they're still not in the dreaded "commercial" territory apparently.

[Frankh]

Ahhhhhhhh...

Foxtrot

[revporl]

Duke is my favourite Genesis album. Its got a perfect and unique blend of prog and soul and its pretty consistent throughout.

[Progatron]

I don’t get what’s “uncommercial” about it. Its length? It’s just two songs smushed together, and neither of them are particularly “prog.” Album filler.

Just when I thought I'd heard it all, Domino gets described as 'filler'. It's the centrepiece of the album. If that track comes across as 'commercial' to you, I'd be interested to hear what gets played on the radio 'round those parts where you live.

And moodier/quirkier stuff like Tonight x3 and The Brazilian may not be as complex as the older albums - or anything like Henry Cow, since that bizarrely black-and-white comparison was made - but to suggest that they belong on Duran Duran or Toto albums is patently absurd. I wonder what Banks would say about that knock while he's focusing on playing the changes in Domino live (a song he says is always very challenging). Maybe he'd wonder why nobody says that about something like I Know What I Like instead. Nick Rhodes might be able to tackle that one.

[JJ88]

Great versions of these songs on the 80s Wembley DVD as well. I've never liked the cut-down 'Tonight Tonight Tonight' at all, especially not live where the key was lowered and segued into 'Invisible Touch'. They only played the beginning of the track, really!

Have to agree that nothing Genesis have ever recorded sounds like Henry Cow. (One might argue 'The Waiting Room' and even that's pushing it.)

[Chuck AzEee!]

I got a notification on this post, and thought I’d pop by briefly to comment.

We here all know I love Genesis, they’re my all time favorite musical act, and I’m quite happy that I discovered them at the time that I did with being biased by their influential “Progressive” past. “and then there were three...” was the first Genesis album I purchased (although I classmate of mine had made a mix tape of songs from “Duke”, “Abacab” and “Genesis” and the at the current time “Invisble Touch” album.) I didn’t like it intially, but after a few listens, I found that it grew on to me and because of PE, I finally love “Snowbound”, the album although missing Hackett’s magical touch, still is brilliant to me.

Now for “Duke”, it contains one of my Top 3 Genesis songs in “Duchess” and in my opinion, the last GREAT Genesis album, a perfect balance between the band’s past (The “Duke” Suite) and the hinting of the band’s future.

What often bothers me is the Prog snobbery in which many of the older fans of Progressive Rock, find anything “soulful”, “Funky” and heaven forbid a song that transitions to “Pop” radio, it’s a cause for utter disdain and ridicule. When it comes to Genesis, like Ultravox, Joy Division/New Order and Depeche Mode the divide amongst the fans of one era over another is just one of confusion for me as I accept them for what I discovered first yet love what made them great as well.

By the way, I love Henry Cow but if I wanted to hear a band that played with the harmonic dissidence of Henry Cow and the intricate symphonic majesty of Genesis, I’d listen King Crimson.

[GuitarGeek]

Am I the only person who thinks Phil might have double tracked his drums on Behind The Line sand Duke's Travels/Duke's End? Every time I listen to those songs, they sound to me like two drummers playing in unison, like maybe he was anticipating what they'd sound like onstage, with him and Chester playing together.

[arthurfrayn]

I came to it much later-huge early Genesis fan-I was pretty much chased away by And Then There Were Three and only bought Abacab after that. I find Duke very listenable -I like it. I'm partial to the very Banks sounding things like Heathaze

[mozo-pg]

One thing that is appealing to me about Duke is that I have not overplayed it to death like the Gabriel albums. Nursery Crymes is an album I've still not overplayed - for whatever reason - so it still has a freshness. I came to Duke really late - six or seven years ago - because I was so turned off the radio staples (I still skip the staples). I still find lots of the material on the pop side but it's beautiful music. Duchess, Heathaze, and Cul-de -Sac really are lovely songs. The only decidedly progressive track to my ears is Duke's End/Travels. Phil's voice is in fine form on Duke. I probably draw from the Trick-Wind-Duke-3 albums more than the others these days.

[bennymania]

Am I the only person who thinks Phil might have double tracked his drums on Behind The Lines and Duke's Travels/Duke's End?

No, you're not the only one.

[StevegSr]

I think it's easy for people to lump ATTWT and Duke together because of the short song format and the continued loss of Hackett. Having spawned a pop hit each certainly didn't hurt that perception, but to me they are as different as chalk and cheese, and the difference is mainly in the songwriting. While Sean has noted that ATTWT was heavy on Banks' influence and songwriting, Duke is the beginning of the Banks/Collins/Rutherford songwriting machine and has much more in common with Abacab in that regard. And the reason why Abacab is viewed differently from Duke? The album production and producer. Gone was the cluttered Mr. Hentschel and his near wall of sound. In came a more stark and contemporary sound, and a real hit album. The first of many, in fact.

[StevegSr]

Am I the only person who thinks Phil might have double tracked his drums on Behind The Line sand Duke's Travels/Duke's End? Every time I listen to those songs, they sound to me like two drummers playing in unison, like maybe he was anticipating what they'd sound like onstage, with him and Chester playing together.

Exactly. Give this man a cigar.

[Buddhabreath]

Hmmm, maybe I should revisit these latter albums.

My intro to Genesis was Nursery Cryme. I'm a big fan of the PG era stuff as well as Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering - I love to play the Blood on the Rooftops intro on guitar to this day - the best little Hackett quasi-classical gem since Horizons and not quasi-plagerized (Bach) like Horizons either. Still when Wind came out and I heard "Your Own Special Way" I was in High School and pretty bummed. I saw it as the beginning of the end and I was right. It took me a while to warm up to And Then especially with the departure of Hackett, but overall I think its a fine album with some very strong evocative songs along with a couple of stinkers on it. When I heard Duke I was done. Listened once and threw it in the garbage. I henceforth referred to those next two albums as "Puke" and 'Slab of Flab"... perhaps I was a bit hasty...?

[Stevie B]

Hmmm, maybe I should revisit these latter albums.

My intro to Genesis was Nursery Cryme. I'm a big fan of the PG era stuff as well as Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering - I love to play the Blood on the Rooftops intro on guitar to this day - the best little Hackett quasi-classical gem since Horizons and not quasi-plagerized (Bach) like Horizons either. Still when Wind came out and I heard "Your Own Special Way" I was in High School and pretty bummed. I saw it as the beginning of the end and I was right. It took me a while to warm up to And Then especially with the departure of Hackett, but overall I think its a fine album with some very strong evocative songs along with a couple of stinkers on it. When I heard Duke I was done. Listened once and threw it in the garbage. I henceforth referred to those next two albums as "Puke" and 'Slab of Flab"... perhaps I was a bit hasty...?

To be honest, it sounds like Duke and those that followed aren't for you, unless you think your musical taste might have broadened over the years and could tolerate well-written (in my opinion) pop music...

[mozo-pg]

Hmmm, maybe I should revisit these latter albums.

When I heard Duke I was done. Listened once and threw it in the garbage. I henceforth referred to those next two albums as "Puke" and 'Slab of Flab"... perhaps I was a bit hasty...?

I was in your situation. I only heard the staples (which I still don't like) on the radio at the time of its release. Based on comments on PE, I tried the full album. You are going to go into shock when you hear Duke's End/Travels. It's totally progressive and stand very tall in their catalog. The rest of the album is pretty commercial to my ears but there is some truly wonderful melodies and the vocals are excellent.

[Drake]

Great versions of these songs on the 80s Wembley DVD as well. I've never liked the cut-down 'Tonight Tonight Tonight' at all, especially not live where the key was lowered and segued into 'Invisible Touch'. They only played the beginning of the track, really!

Have to agree that nothing Genesis have ever recorded sounds like Henry Cow. (One might argue 'The Waiting Room' and even that's pushing it.)

On what tour did they glue TTT to IT? Not on Invisible Touch? TTT on Wembley is a killler.

[JJ88]

^We Can't Dance and then the 2007 reunion tour. Hate it.

I already said the version on the Wembley show was excellent in that very post ('great versions of these songs on the 80s Wembley DVD as well').

[Frankh]

Pretty in places. Still echoes of their former glories. Yet also still hastening toward their peak commercial appeal, which through some cruel trick of universal principles we have not fully fathomed coincided with what at least for me became musical uselessness.

And Then There Were Three the same principles apply.

[Trane]

I think it's easy for people to lump ATTWT and Duke together because of the short song format and the continued loss of Hackett. Having spawned a pop hit each certainly didn't hurt that perception, but to me they are as different as chalk and cheese, and the difference is mainly in the songwriting. While Sean has noted that ATTWT was heavy on Banks' influence and songwriting, Duke is the beginning of the Banks/Collins/Rutherford songwriting machine and has much more in common with Abacab in that regard. And the reason why Abacab is viewed differently from Duke? The album production and producer. Gone was the cluttered Mr. Hentschel and his near wall of sound. In came a more stark and contemporary sound, and a real hit album. The first of many, in fact.

Of course it's easy... it's even handy... Though indeed I'd agree with you with the separate songwriting of ATTWT, and the more collegial efforts of Duke... But remember that Banks' ACF and Rutherford's ASCD (and later on Collins' FV) also solved any songwriting tensions that might have risen around that time - and that was also (one of) Hackett's reason(s) for leaving the band.

FTM, I think that Duke should be listened together with ACF and ASCD a bit as a whole: they "sound" much alike (production-wise) as they were made really close together and recorded in the same facilities

Hmmm, maybe I should revisit these latter albums.

My intro to Genesis was Nursery Cryme. I'm a big fan of the PG era stuff as well as Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering - I love to play the Blood on the Rooftops intro on guitar to this day - the best little Hackett quasi-classical gem since Horizons and not quasi-plagerized (Bach) like Horizons either. Still when Wind came out and I heard "Your Own Special Way" I was in High School and pretty bummed. I saw it as the beginning of the end and I was right. It took me a while to warm up to And Then especially with the departure of Hackett, but overall I think its a fine album with some very strong evocative songs along with a couple of stinkers on it. When I heard Duke I was done. Listened once and threw it in the garbage. I henceforth referred to those next two albums as "Puke" and 'Slab of Flab"... perhaps I was a bit hasty...?

You may want to revisit ATTWT and Duke: you could be pleasantly surprised (provided that you give them a fair chance), but you'll probably never think of them as good as what came before... I mean the band didn't immediately go bad in one album, though that Spot The Pigeon EP was not exactly encouraging news either. .

I agree that YOSW was a real stinker... the fact that it went twice around (lasting 6-mins instead of 3) didn't bode well either./ I mean I could've forgiven it had it lasted 2.5 minutes.

I was in your situation. I only heard the staples (which I still don't like) on the radio at the time of its release. Based on comments on PE, I tried the full album. You are going to go into shock when you hear Duke's End/Travels. It's totally progressive and stand very tall in their catalog. The rest of the album is pretty commercial to my ears but there is some truly wonderful melodies and the vocals are excellent.

While I like it well enough, I wouldn't rate anything on Duke on the level of W&W or the stuff that came before. But I do think that the suite stands head & shoulders well above anything on their Pigeons EP

[Progatron]

I'd agree with you with the separate songwriting of ATTWT, and the miore collegial efforts of Duke

This is something of a myth. Both albums have seven "solo" compositions on them and four band compositions (five on Duke if you count Duke's End as a separate song). It was Abacab that moved more in the full band direction (one solo composition each) before the next three albums saw them writing from scratch together in the studio.