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Thread: Peter Hammill vs David Bowie

  1. #1

    Peter Hammill vs David Bowie

    I am reading on Hammill's wiki: "In a 1977 radio interview, John Lydon of the Sex Pistols played two tracks from the album and expressed his admiration for Hammill in glowing terms: "Peter Hammill's great. A true original. I've just liked him for years. If you listen to him, his solo albums, I'm damn sure Bowie copied a lot out of that geezer."".

    And that makes for a very intriguing statement and comparison. Maybe it is common place in this forum, but I've only been here for something like a year and I haven't seen anything about it. So what do you think? Are there any similarities between them? Who do you think is the greater artist or the more original? And why did one of them acquired universal recognition and the other...well, not really? I have my own thoughts on this, but as the OP I would rather reveal them in relation to your thoughts - if this catches anyone's interest. But I am very curious about what you think.

  2. #2
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Emotive singers who write their own material.

    Bowie was quite the clever borrower/thief, but I don't think PH loomed particularly large in his style....
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Emotive singers who write their own material.

    Bowie was quite the clever borrower/thief, but I don't think PH loomed particularly large in his style....
    I love the first 7 words of your post

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Emotive singers who write their own material.

    Bowie was quite the clever borrower/thief, but I don't think PH loomed particularly large in his style....
    I like to simplify things. To me Peter has been a rocker and David was a musician. David could adopt any realm of music and run with it. Peter has not bothered to explore anything else but rock.


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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Progmatic View Post
    I like to simplify things. To me Peter has been a rocker and David was a musician. David could adopt any realm of music and run with it. Peter has not bothered to explore anything else but rock.
    That's not "simplifying things" it's ignoring things.

    "Through The Looking Glass" is practically classical. Not to mention the guy has always been deep into folk music.

    Hammill has also tackled improvisational music, noise, experimental, electronic, dance music ... and pretty much invented an entirely different style of approaching the use of the voice; greatly expanding upon its traditional melodic restraints.

    But then I never buy the argument that if Artist A has dabbled in more styles than Artist B that this is somehow a measure of the greatness of Artist A. If anything, I think Hammill has perhaps experimented a bit too much.

  6. #6
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    I love the first 7 words of your post
    Thank you.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  7. #7
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progmatic View Post
    Peter has not bothered to explore anything else but rock.
    Untrue and unfair. My god, ever heard "Loops and Reels"?
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  8. #8
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Bowie is also more well known because of his acting work. I remember seeing The Man Who Fell to Earth multiple times on HBO when I was 13 years old. And the androgyny thing. Not that I don't think Bowie was extremely talented, I do. But they both are.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    That's not "simplifying things" it's ignoring things.

    "Through The Looking Glass" is practically classical. Not to mention the guy has always been deep into folk music.

    Hammill has also tackled improvisational music, noise, experimental, electronic, dance music ... and pretty much invented an entirely different style of approaching the use of the voice; greatly expanding upon its traditional melodic restraints.

    But then I never buy the argument that if Artist A has dabbled in more styles than Artist B that this is somehow a measure of the greatness of Artist A. If anything, I think Hammill has perhaps experimented a bit too much.
    I did not measure anyone's greatness. I just said that they are different based on resources I have access to (about 9 albums from both artists) and that is all. If you have some other info suggesting otherwise I am ok with it.
    Many people know many things


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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    I am reading on Hammill's wiki: "In a 1977 radio interview, John Lydon of the Sex Pistols played two tracks from the album and expressed his admiration for Hammill in glowing terms: "Peter Hammill's great. A true original. I've just liked him for years. If you listen to him, his solo albums, I'm damn sure Bowie copied a lot out of that geezer."".

    And that makes for a very intriguing statement and comparison. Maybe it is common place in this forum, but I've only been here for something like a year and I haven't seen anything about it. So what do you think? Are there any similarities between them? Who do you think is the greater artist or the more original? And why did one of them acquired universal recognition and the other...well, not really? I have my own thoughts on this, but as the OP I would rather reveal them in relation to your thoughts - if this catches anyone's interest. But I am very curious about what you think.
    I don't know if David Bowie copied or even was aware of Peter Hammill, when Bowie's vocal mannerisms most resembled Peter Hammill (1969-1973). I do know that Bowie was trying to copy the vocal style of Bob Dylan during his earlier years; perhaps sounding a little bit like Peter Hammill is what happens when David Bowie tries to sound like Bob Dylan?

    Anyway, even if David Bowie was intentionally trying to borrow something from Peter Hammill, the main difference between the two in terms of singing (which, probably, also affected their respective popularity) is that whereas David Bowie only sometimes sings as if he has been influenced by Peter Hammill, Peter Hammill always sounds exactly like Peter Hammill.

  11. #11
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    ^^^

    "PH always sounds exactly like PH."

    Perfect.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  12. #12
    Member Mr.Krautman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Progmatic
    Peter has not bothered to explore anything else but rock.

    Peter has been a rocker and David was a musician




    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Untrue and unfair. My god, ever heard "Loops and Reels"?

    ... or the Fall Of The House Of Usher ?

    Though I find these artists comparison/categorization games a little bit meaningless I think most of D.B's work is MUCH closer to mainstream rock than anything P.H ever did and the latter is less know mostly because his music is harder to get in, more complex and less accessible. Also, PH's (sometimes) strained voice/singing is an acquired taste and not for everyone's ears. And last (but not least) P.H never got a hit single...
    But saying that P.H is a "rocker" rather than a musician is a simplistic and inaccurate statement (for both "rockers" and P.H !).
    Last edited by Mr.Krautman; 09-26-2017 at 06:22 PM.

  13. #13
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    Exactly, Mr. Krautman...

  14. #14
    Casanova TCC's Avatar
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    Agree!:
    Peter Hammill sounds like nobody else, just like him !!.
    😎

    n.p.:
    In Camera. ****

  15. #15
    Casanova TCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    I am reading on Hammill's wiki: "In a 1977 radio interview, John Lydon of the Sex Pistols played two tracks from the album and expressed his admiration for Hammill in glowing terms: "Peter Hammill's great. A true original. ...
    Just for the records:
    "Nadir's Big Chance" was that album and the 2 songs were: "The Institute Of Mental Health, Burning" and "Nobody's Business".

    A great album IMHO!!.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Progmatic View Post
    Peter has not bothered to explore anything else but rock.
    I'm sure you didn't put a lot of thought into that statement and it was probably just a throwaway comment, so no biggie, but that is truly one misinformed view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I don't know if David Bowie copied or even was aware of Peter Hammill, when Bowie's vocal mannerisms most resembled Peter Hammill (1969-1973)
    Bowie was well aware of Hammill around that time (and before) and they knew each other. There has been mutual admiration through the years; Hammill and Bowie first met and knew each other years ago at the tail end of the 60s when both were signed to Mercury.

    Bowie has long been mentioned in press articles as being a big fan of PH / VdGG's work, but I could never find anything directly from the man himself (and, believe me, when I was writing the VdGG book I really tried). In Peter Doggett's Bowie biography from a few years ago, he writes that the missing link between the Bowie songs Quicksand and Station to Station "was provided by an artist whose work Bowie had immersed himself in around 1974: Peter Hammill." Doggett goes on to single out the track "In The Black Room" from Peter's album Chameleon...

    There is also this quote from Bowie producer Ken Scott from a 1973 interview: "[Bowie] likes to listen to records a lot. If he gets into an artist he'll buy all their LPs and play them one by one. The last time I can remember him doing that was Van Der Graaf Generator. He's a collector, of anything and everything, experiences, influences, the lot."

    For Hammill's part, when he was asked about Bowie by Record Collector magazine in 2011, he stated, "I knew him, we were signed to the same record company for a time (Mercury). If there's a similarity, it's probably because when we harmonize with ourselves, we cover a lot of distance. Most people keep it close but we cover a very wide range. I thought 'Scary Monsters' was a marvelous album."

    When VdGG was recording their album "H to He, Who Am The Only One" in 1970, founder member Judge Smith (who had left the band two years previously but dropped by Trident Studios to hang out with the band) remembered Bowie dropping by the sessions to hang out (it may have been where DB first met future collaborator Robert Fripp, who was a guest on the VdGG album). Interesting, then, is this official poster for the last Bowie album. It's basically the same formula displayed on the back of VdGG's H to He album (which was Hydrogen to Helium, so "H to He" refers to the nuclear fusion reaction; If you take "Who Am The Only One" to mean a divine being, then the conceit of the album title is that the divine spark comes from a physical process - or more broadly, that if you're looking for miracles, you should look for them in science... very PH, Hammill being particularly interested in science since his university days). We'll never know if David was aware of the connection between this poster and that classic VdGG album from so many years ago, but we do know he was a VdGG fan and had stopped by that session, so it wouldn't be surprising if it was a subtle nod toward the Graafs. Plus, there are *many* fans on FB pages and forums saying that the last Bowie album has a dark vibe very reminiscent of VdGG, and that the sax parts are really Jackson-like. (I couldn't speak to that, as I haven't heard DB's last)

    db.jpg

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucka001 View Post
    I'm sure you didn't put a lot of thought into that statement and it was probably just a throwaway comment, so no biggie, but that is truly one misinformed view.



    Bowie was well aware of Hammill around that time (and before) and they knew each other. There has been mutual admiration through the years; Hammill and Bowie first met and knew each other years ago at the tail end of the 60s when both were signed to Mercury.

    Bowie has long been mentioned in press articles as being a big fan of PH / VdGG's work, but I could never find anything directly from the man himself (and, believe me, when I was writing the VdGG book I really tried). In Peter Doggett's Bowie biography from a few years ago, he writes that the missing link between the Bowie songs Quicksand and Station to Station "was provided by an artist whose work Bowie had immersed himself in around 1974: Peter Hammill." Doggett goes on to single out the track "In The Black Room" from Peter's album Chameleon...

    There is also this quote from Bowie producer Ken Scott from a 1973 interview: "[Bowie] likes to listen to records a lot. If he gets into an artist he'll buy all their LPs and play them one by one. The last time I can remember him doing that was Van Der Graaf Generator. He's a collector, of anything and everything, experiences, influences, the lot."

    For Hammill's part, when he was asked about Bowie by Record Collector magazine in 2011, he stated, "I knew him, we were signed to the same record company for a time (Mercury). If there's a similarity, it's probably because when we harmonize with ourselves, we cover a lot of distance. Most people keep it close but we cover a very wide range. I thought 'Scary Monsters' was a marvelous album."

    When VdGG was recording their album "H to He, Who Am The Only One" in 1970, founder member Judge Smith (who had left the band two years previously but dropped by Trident Studios to hang out with the band) remembered Bowie dropping by the sessions to hang out (it may have been where DB first met future collaborator Robert Fripp, who was a guest on the VdGG album). Interesting, then, is this official poster for the last Bowie album. It's basically the same formula displayed on the back of VdGG's H to He album (which was Hydrogen to Helium, so "H to He" refers to the nuclear fusion reaction; If you take "Who Am The Only One" to mean a divine being, then the conceit of the album title is that the divine spark comes from a physical process - or more broadly, that if you're looking for miracles, you should look for them in science... very PH, Hammill being particularly interested in science since his university days). We'll never know if David was aware of the connection between this poster and that classic VdGG album from so many years ago, but we do know he was a VdGG fan and had stopped by that session, so it wouldn't be surprising if it was a subtle nod toward the Graafs. Plus, there are *many* fans on FB pages and forums saying that the last Bowie album has a dark vibe very reminiscent of VdGG, and that the sax parts are really Jackson-like. (I couldn't speak to that, as I haven't heard DB's last)

    db.jpg
    Thank you for all this information.

  18. #18
    Bucka, as one die-hard PHan to another, you must listen to David Bowie's last album, it is a masterpiece IMHO and would definitely appeal to you.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by flytomars View Post
    Bucka, as one die-hard PHan to another, you must listen to David Bowie's last album, it is a masterpiece IMHO and would definitely appeal to you.
    I'm sure I will at some point. Didn't he know he was ill (I thought I read somewhere he knew he was going to die but I could be misremembering that). Man... I'll have to be in a mood where I don't exactly need a pick-me-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Who do you think is the greater artist or the more original? And why did one of them acquired universal recognition and the other...well, not really?
    They're both great artists, obv. I know that one thing that has stopped PH from being more popular is The Voice. His singing style (actually, he has many singing styles) is a major positive for those of us who love him, but a major detractor for lots of others (I've had several friends throughout the years who told me they like the music of VdGG but couldn't get past the vox; others thanked me for turning them onto this awesome talent). Also, as Kris Needs once pointed out (venerable Brit writer / personality), Bowie and Gabriel were as known for their looks / fashions as much as their music. That was a big part of the appeal. With Hammill, you wouldn't look twice at him walking down the street (ironically, his music could be further out than either of them).

    Check out this snippet of interview from a few years back where Hammill talks a bit about Bowie and Gabriel and "success" (the first 30 seconds are about why VdGG had to carry on as a trio after Jaxon left): https://youtu.be/blq7yY9BguY

  20. #20
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    Thank you for all this information.
    +1. Great stuff Bucka001.

  21. #21
    Bowie was the Starman, Hammill? Not so much...
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucka001 View Post
    I'm sure you didn't put a lot of thought into that statement and it was probably just a throwaway comment, so no biggie, but that is truly one misinformed view.

    db.jpg
    Well I am sure it was. I have based that statement on my collection of PH albums. That is just about all VDGG + his solo albums below

    The Silent Corner & The Empty Stage
    In Camera
    Chameleon In The Shadow Of The Night
    Over
    The Future Now
    Nadir's Big Chance
    Fools Mate
    A Black Box

    I do not think you can conclude anything different from that collection, but I am willing to explore his other albums to see where they take me.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    +1. Great stuff Bucka001.
    Yes, very valuable stuff to have.

  24. #24
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Emotive singers who write their own material.

    Bowie was quite the clever borrower/thief, but I don't think PH loomed particularly large in his style....

    mmmmhhhh!!!... I think that from Nadir onwards, Hammill always made at least one song per 70's album that could've sonically fit on a Bowie 70's album . Of course you still hear Peter's voice that makes it unmistakably Hamillian. Crying Wolf on Over, Mirror Man on PH7, for ex

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    "Through The Looking Glass" is practically classical.
    Are you maybe not confusing this with Alice (Letting Go) and (This Side Of) The Looking Glass, both on Over

    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Bowie is also more well known because of his acting work. I remember seeing The Man Who Fell to Earth multiple times on HBO when I was 13 years old. And the androgyny thing. Not that I don't think Bowie was extremely talented, I do. But they both are.
    mmmhhh!!!... Bowie had an unhealthy fixation on celebrity like Elton John and mar Bolan, and was ready to do anything to get to his goal

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    "PH always sounds exactly like PH."
    Vocally, could he do differently if he tried?

    Quote Originally Posted by TCC View Post
    Agree!:
    Peter Hammill sounds like nobody else, just like him !!.
    Unfortunately for the rest of our galaxy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucka001 View Post
    Bowie was well aware of Hammill around that time (and before) and they knew each other. There has been mutual admiration through the years; Hammill and Bowie first met and knew each other years ago at the tail end of the 60s when both were signed to Mercury.

    Bowie has long been mentioned in press articles as being a big fan of PH / VdGG's work, but I could never find anything directly from the man himself (and, believe me, when I was writing the VdGG book I really tried). In Peter Doggett's Bowie biography from a few years ago, he writes that the missing link between the Bowie songs Quicksand and Station to Station "was provided by an artist whose work Bowie had immersed himself in around 1974: Peter Hammill." Doggett goes on to single out the track "In The Black Room" from Peter's album Chameleon...

    There is also this quote from Bowie producer Ken Scott from a 1973 interview: "[Bowie] likes to listen to records a lot. If he gets into an artist he'll buy all their LPs and play them one by one. The last time I can remember him doing that was Van Der Graaf Generator. He's a collector, of anything and everything, experiences, influences, the lot."
    I'd say Bowie was almost in the same "crowd" in the later 70's with Fripp's production works & Hammill 's participation to Exposure . It seems like Gabriel wasn't that far away either (via Fripp again)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  25. #25
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    mmmmhhhh!!!...
    I always picture someone sneaking up from behind while you type, and slipping a cloth gag around your head and into your jaw as you struggle with the attacker.

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