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Thread: Crest of a Knave - 30 Years Old

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    I like this album, played it tonight, but can't believe anyone could not hear the Dire Straits "influence"... much of Budapest sounds like a pastiche of Telegraph Road and Private Investigations. Regardless, I have fond memories of playing this with a buddy in college.
    Yeah. I mean, copying Dire Straits turned out to be a much better influence than whomever they were copying (Ultravox?) on Under Wraps.

  2. #27
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    It's so blatant on that song that you start to hear it everywhere on the album. Well, I did anyways. It creeps into Martin's guitar bits and in the way Ian handles the vocals, and just the production in general is really trying to turn this album into "Brothers In Arms' Little Brother."
    yeah, OK, I hear it now in the Dancer track... But it's definitely not a good Straits cloning, though

    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I guess it depends on how you reference Dire Straits; pre or post Brothers in Arms. I fooled my brother into thinking She Said She Was A Dance was a new Dire Straits tune. Songs like Budapest, Waking Edge and Farm On The Freeway are dead ringers for DS if you remove the flute. I still like it. I just wished theyd have used a real drummer instead of a machine, especially on the aforementioned ZZ-Tull songs Steel Monkey and Raising Steam.
    Flute and strings, then... Not aware Straits resorted to strings at all.

    The album has a few good tracks, like the slow-starting Farm On The Freeway (acceptable, despite the easy formula) and the then-usually-long Budapest (somewhat worthy of Minstrel's Gallery, but really nothing more), and Jump Start.
    Midwinter, Mountain Men (despite a cool flute passage), and the bonus track Part Of The Machine (the chinese/bamboo flute is a little twee, methinks) are standard run-of-the-mill Tull tracks

    Quote Originally Posted by rapidfirerob View Post
    Last Tull album I enjoyed.
    Roots To Branches really did it for me for the last two decades, but it kinds of runs out of steam in the last third. I guess I really appreciated Ian's forays into eastern flute playing after his 90's solo albums.



    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    I like this album, played it tonight, but can't believe anyone could not hear the Dire Straits "influence"... much of Budapest sounds like a pastiche of Telegraph Road and Private Investigations. Regardless, I have fond memories of playing this with a buddy in college.
    Yeah. I mean, copying Dire Straits turned out to be a much better influence than whomever they were copying (Ultravox?) on Under Wraps.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  3. #28
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Part Of The Machine
    I think this tune kicks all sorts of farmed salmon ass.
    If it isn't Krautrock, it's krap.

  4. #29
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    Roots To Branches was a very solid album, I think. I'd take that over some of their 70s albums.

    'Said She Was A Dancer' is their 'Romeo And Juliet'.

  5. #30
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    I like this album, played it tonight, but can't believe anyone could not hear the Dire Straits "influence"... much of Budapest sounds like a pastiche of Telegraph Road and Private Investigations. Regardless, I have fond memories of playing this with a buddy in college.
    The Dire Straits comparison never occurred to me before this thread, but I'm not a Dire Straits fan. I can see some similarities now though. I really don't think it was at all intended on the part of any of the band members.

  6. #31
    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I really don't think it was at all intended on the part of any of the band members.
    You're a lot less cynical than I am.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I can see some similarities now though. I really don't think it was at all intended on the part of any of the band members.
    Why would you think that?

    I guess nobody really knows for sure, but it's hard to believe that a situation existed whereby 1). Dire Straits was in the middle of a massive career resurgence in 1985/86 and the peak of their world-wide popularity; 2) Jethro Tull recording the album shortly thereafter; 3) some songs on the album sounding unmistakably like Dire Straits, yet Jethro Tull had not actually been influenced by Dire Straits, but I guess slightly crazier things have happened.

    Also, the comparison has been made since the week the album was released, by nearly everyone who has written about it.

  8. #33
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Did Tull have a reputation of aping other successful bands over their 20 year career at that point? (Aside from possibly their earliest days, though I don't know if they did or not.) I mean, they were pretty well establish with an identifiable sound, and successful, and their previous album had sold better than the two ones before that, according to Wikipedia. I just don't really see the incentive - it seems much more likely that Tull circa 1987 sounded like Dire Straits circa 1987 because of the times, than because of a calculated effort. But as Paulrus said, I'm not as cynical as him or you, I guess.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    I mean, they were pretty well establish with an identifiable sound, and successful, and their previous album had sold better than the two ones before that, according to Wikipedia. I just don't really see the incentive - it seems much more likely that Tull circa 1987 sounded like Dire Straits circa 1987 because of the times, than because of a calculated effort. But as Paulrus said, I'm not as cynical as him or you, I guess.
    Well, they *did* once have an identifiable sound. But in 1980 IA broke up the band that was producing it, and for some time was mostly concerned with chasing down various trends developed by others and appropriating elements thereof for Jethro Tull in an attempt to keep the band relevant. Don't know how much of this was IA or the label, though.

  10. #35
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    And Anderson isn't any more guilty of chasing trends than other popular 70s artists within the decade of the 80s. No one would believe a little 3-piece Boogie band from Texas whatever resort to using a drum machine but they certainly did. Phil Collins switching to a gated drum sound, Bill Bruford using synthetic drums on one of his albums, Moody Blues did too. The fact that Jethro Tull had started flirting with drum program in the early to mid 80s is proof that they had their ear to the ground regarding trends du jour. Dire Straits would have certainly had a big influence on other older British acts from that time, given that their album Brothers in Arms was a mega International hit not to mention that one of their videos, Money For Nothing, was played non-stop for a couple of years on MTV.

  11. #36
    Banned Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    guilty of chasing trends ... Phil Collins switching to a gated drum sound
    Switching to?

    He (w/ Gabriel and his production team) came up with it.

  12. #37
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Hmmm.... I don't notice it on early Genesis. I was referring to how the drums sounded on their '80s stuff.

  13. #38
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    ^But the implication was that Collins jumped on a bandwagon, which is not remotely the case.

  14. #39
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^But the implication was that Collins jumped on a bandwagon, which is not remotely the case.
    So maybe it wasn't necessarily Collins? I do think their sound changed in the 80s. Not that I'm a Phil Collins basher or anything; i owned those albums along with his first thtee solo albums.

    Lots of 70s artists followed trends in the 80s like Robert Plant for example. Doesn't necessarily mean they sold out but it does tend to date their material.

  15. #40
    Banned Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    So maybe it wasn't necessarily Collins? I do think their sound changed in the 80s.
    https://www.vox.com/videos/2017/8/18...aped-80s-music

  16. #41
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Ahh...

    hated it
    Digital playback brought high fidelity to the masses and audiophiles will never forgive it for that

  17. #42
    I like it. It's really grown on me while I've been listening to the later Tull catalogue. Granted that's an ahistorical context so 2 caveats: still not sold on "She Said She Was a Dancer" by Jethro Straits, and my favorite cut was not on the intial LP release - Dogs in the Midwinter. I think that's as good as any classic Tull...



  18. #43
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I guess nobody really knows for sure, but it's hard to believe that a situation existed whereby 1). Dire Straits was in the middle of a massive career resurgence in 1985/86 and the peak of their world-wide popularity; 2) Jethro Tull recording the album shortly thereafter; 3) some songs on the album sounding unmistakably like Dire Straits, yet Jethro Tull had not actually been influenced by Dire Straits, but I guess slightly crazier things have happened.
    Don't think DS was on a "resurgence", they'd been at the top ever since Sultans in 77, and their LOG album going to the top of the charts sort of denied the 80's trend of synths and gated drums for success. Though one could atgue that the le,ngth between studio albums might be a little long top remain in the limelight, but I only see that as a quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Did Tull have a reputation of aping other successful bands over their 20 year career at that point? (Aside from possibly their earliest days, though I don't know if they did or not.) I mean, they were pretty well establish with an identifiable sound, and successful, and their previous album had sold better than the two ones before that, according to Wikipedia. I just don't really see the incentive - it seems much more likely that Tull circa 1987 sounded like Dire Straits circa 1987 because of the times, than because of a calculated effort. But as Paulrus said, I'm not as cynical as him or you, I guess.
    Clearly the early 80's trilogy saw Tull try anything to find a new sound... I dislike all three albums enough not to want to re-listen to them and find out where they took inspiration from. I guess it is possible that CoaK did look to ZZ and DS, but not anymore than the previous three tried to find inspiration elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    And Anderson isn't any more guilty of chasing trends than other popular 70s artists within the decade of the 80s. No one would believe a little 3-piece Boogie band from Texas whatever resort to using a drum machine but they certainly did. Phil Collins switching to a gated drum sound, Bill Bruford using synthetic drums on one of his albums, Moody Blues did too. The fact that Jethro Tull had started flirting with drum program in the early to mid 80s is proof that they had their ear to the ground regarding trends du jour. Dire Straits would have certainly had a big influence on other older British acts from that time, given that their album Brothers in Arms was a mega International hit not to mention that one of their videos, Money For Nothing, was played non-stop for a couple of years on MTV.
    can't really argue with that...

    I guess Phil ruined Tull and Ian ruined Genesis, .... and Frank ruined ZZT
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  19. #44
    I've never actually heard this album (though I remember Farm On The Freeway from the radio). I remember hearing at the time (from Ian himself in an interview, if I'm not mistaken), that for this album they actually did a demographic survey of their fans to see what they would want in a new Tull album. Then they proceeded to do what the survey indicated (I'm simplifying here, since this was obviously a very long time ago and I'm going from memory). Does anybody else remember hearing this? I mean, if Ian said it, it's anyone's guess how true it was but that's what I remember.

  20. #45
    I also find this juxtaposition interesting: "I was fairly selfish in doing all the writing and the arranging by myself, without inviting the participation of the other members of the group." - Ian Anderson (from the article linked in the OP).

    Then from Wikipedia: "..the album where a lot of things were of my invention. There are still chunks of the music where lan very much knew what he wanted, but I think my input was far greater on that album than on any other" Martin Barre

  21. #46
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    I've never actually heard this album (though I remember Farm On The Freeway from the radio). I remember hearing at the time (from Ian himself in an interview, if I'm not mistaken), that for this album they actually did a demographic survey of their fans to see what they would want in a new Tull album. Then they proceeded to do what the survey indicated (I'm simplifying here, since this was obviously a very long time ago and I'm going from memory). Does anybody else remember hearing this? I mean, if Ian said it, it's anyone's guess how true it was but that's what I remember.
    Ian and Chrysalis held pre-release listening sessions for the album, where the participants were given a survey asking them to rate the album and choose the tracks they thought would be best for a single, video, live performance, and radio airplay. The names of the participants appeared on the LP inner sleeve. Ian has stated that his real motivation for holding the sessions was to persuade Chrysalis that there was enough public interest to make it worth giving the album a promotional boost.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Don't think DS was on a "resurgence", they'd been at the top ever since Sultans in 77, and their LOG album going to the top of the charts sort of denied the 80's trend of synths and gated drums for success. Though one could atgue that the le,ngth between studio albums might be a little long top remain in the limelight, but I only see that as a quality.
    I'm approaching this from the perspective of a person in the US. Brothers in Arms was heralded as a "comeback" album for Dire Straits in the US. Their commercial fortunes in the US were high in the late 1970s but Making Movies and Love Over Gold charted much higher in the UK than they did in the US. Love Over Gold peaked at 19, whereas it went to No. 1 in the UK and all over Europe.

    So yeah, "career resurgence" was the wrong phrase to use for Dire Straits in general - that's just what happened over here.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    Ian and Chrysalis held pre-release listening sessions for the album, where the participants were given a survey asking them to rate the album and choose the tracks they thought would be best for a single, video, live performance, and radio airplay. The names of the participants appeared on the LP inner sleeve. Ian has stated that his real motivation for holding the sessions was to persuade Chrysalis that there was enough public interest to make it worth giving the album a promotional boost.
    According to Ian at the time, one of the questions on the survey was "Does this album represent the kind of music you'd like to hear from this band?" Most people said yes, and that was the important one as far as relations with Chrysalis were concerned.

  24. #49
    Member Gerhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    The names of the participants appeared on the LP inner sleeve.
    Thank you, I was just wondering who all those people are, since it doesn't state it clearly on the album sleeve (it just thanks them "for their involvement in the making of this record"). Looks like a typical thank you page for a crowd funding project, but 10 years before bands actually started doing that sort of thing (e.g., Marillion in 1997).

  25. #50
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I'm approaching this from the perspective of a person in the US. Brothers in Arms was heralded as a "comeback" album for Dire Straits in the US. Their commercial fortunes in the US were high in the late 1970s but Making Movies and Love Over Gold charted much higher in the UK than they did in the US. Love Over Gold peaked at 19, whereas it went to No. 1 in the UK and all over Europe.

    So yeah, "career resurgence" was the wrong phrase to use for Dire Straits in general - that's just what happened over here.
    Don't know about the US, but I seem to remember MM (Solid Rock, R&J and the extra-long Tunnel of Love) and LOG (Industrial Disease and Investigations) getting massive canadian radio airtime
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

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